Is tv incompatible with epic fantasy?

[Mailman]

6 minutes ago, TheChief said:

Why would the WoT universe  have barriers to women being blacksmith’s if they wanted to? If maidens could be warriors, and women are strong enough to be blacksmiths today, I honestly don’t see the issue. I know exactly 1 full time blacksmith, and she has no problems “completing her work”, some of which is very large. And Perrin’s wife has Perrin to help. So what’s the barrier in the WoT world?

Its simply in that in a environment where people are far closer to the line in terms of survival. The luxury of being able to choose jobs is far less. And there are some examples of female blacksmiths in history but it is incredibly rare.

 

To highlight there was this small reality show a number of years ago where they dropped a couple in the wilderness and the woman went out with the intention that they would split all the activities straight down the middle. Inside the week it was the man that was doing almost all of the physical activities as the effort and the results reaped from those activities where much easier to achieve with that split.

 

I'm not diminishing woman here but its just a biological truth that men have a advantage in strength.

[ForsakenPotato]

Went so quickly from an interesting convo about what makes fantasy adaptions difficult to "stuff women are bad at and shouldn't do on TV". ?

[DaddyFinn]

Has everyone forgot Alsbet Luhhan?

Edited December 21, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Mailman]

11 minutes ago, TheChief said:

Oh, so what are the “modern advantages” we have today that allow women now to be blacksmiths?

 

I have an idea, but would like to hear what yours is.

Machines that regulate heat of the forge

Machines that move the heavier components of the process around the workspace

 

A blacksmith's striker is an assistant (frequently an apprentice) whose job is to swing a large sledgehammer in heavy forging operations, as directed by the blacksmith. In practice, the blacksmith holds the hot iron at the anvil (with tongs) in one hand, and indicates where to strike the iron by tapping it with a small hammer in the other hand. The striker then delivers a heavy blow to the indicated spot with a sledgehammer. During the 20th century and into the 21st century, this role has become increasingly unnecessary and automated through the use of trip hammers or reciprocating power hammers.

 

These are just some I can think of and again even in a technological society like that of WoT the difference is what role are you best suited for in the conditions provided.

[Mailman]

4 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Has everyone forgot Alsbet Luhhan?

She didn't work the forge that I can remember she was just big.

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, Mailman said:

She didn't work the forge that I can remember she was just big.

She could have easily been a blacksmith. I'm not saying Laila was anywhere near as big but who knows how strong she was. She also fought and killed trollocs.

[Pandemonium]

epic fantasy is easier to present in a cartoon format.  Many cartoon are more representative of epic fantasy than any live action movie or show ever could be.  

 

Trying to show epic fantasy in a live action format is incredibly difficult.  The best chance is in a streaming format.  I feel it has already been done in shows like Star Trek and maybe Stargate.  Highlander had some interesting formats.  Telling a complete story though as opposed to having self contained episodes is something even more difficult.  I really hope WOT can make all the way.

[Windigo]

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Despite the inevitable comparisons between GoT and WoT they are very different types of fantasies and need to be very different types of shows. Much of GoT is people in rooms or on horseback talking about politics, war, revenge and family wealth. Whole chapters or episodes have no magic stuff or lore or prophecy. Imho this is part of why it was so popular -- it's a mostly non-fantastical story that happens to be in a fantasy setting.

Agree, and I do not know if it is possible yet, I am just glad they are trying. 
This is also the same reason that Sci-Fi TV/Movies that have worked have been more of the Battle War movies, or the Space opera's. Epic Sci-fi is also hard to do. (Though I do think the newer shows are getting closer) 
Really for the most part there is very little "fantasy" world building in ASoIAF /GoT. It is basically more of an Historical Fiction, with fantastical creatures. The fact that it was inspired by The War of the Roses instead of a mythology, is obvious.  

I have not watched Witcher, or read the books. 
HP is urban fantasy,with limited locations and a small cast of characters. 
LotR had advantages in that it is based on known Mythology and legends, the setting is understood, The shows only and has fantastical beasts (easy to show) and again has limited "wizard magic".  Most of the world building is locations. 

WoT is a first for a real Epic fantasy not based on knowns, The world is somewhat familiar, but R.J. built a whole new world, around it with new lores, mythology based on reincarnation and varied cultures, While there are rulers, kings, queens, politics, specific magics with rules and an effect on the world, it's power structures and culture.  
So you have a magic like HP.  The politics and intrigue of GoT,  the epic battles of LotR  
It is not easy to do for TV.   So far they are doing ok with the familiar what has been done, but they are lacking in what makes it Epic Fantasy with  building out the world the Lore and the people. 
Maybe Amazon will get parts of it right, maybe not, but then It took a long time before TV/Movies,  got LoTR or Dune right. 
 

[Windigo]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Woman in middle age societies are almost never going to be Blacksmiths they lack the strength to complete the work as efficiently as men and for a character that literally is in the show for 5 minutes it was a choice simply made to appeal to todays sensibilities.

Almost never is not never, and there are actually several documented examples of women blacksmiths.  
Many of the items like nails and chains were made by women. 

To think that it being physical labor eliminates women of the time is not understanding the physical strength required for churning butter, grinding grain, even doing laundry.  
There are actually some good studies on how women's bones show the extent of manual labor and  arm strength up to the Medieval period

[Mailman]

2 minutes ago, Windigo said:

Almost never is not never, and there are actually several documented examples of women blacksmiths.  
Many of the items like nails and chains were made by women. 

To think that it being physical labor eliminates women of the time is not understanding the physical strength required for churning butter, grinding grain, even doing laundry.  
There are actually some good studies on how women's bones show the extent of manual labor and  arm strength up to the Medieval period

Yes but also quite often the female blacksmiths, that where still very rare, actually took over the forges of their husbands as a widow.

 

And as you point out the items they made where not the larger pieces.

 

I have no doubt that women's bones would have changed in regards to repeated manual labour. I also dont doubt that repeated use of a large sledgehammer is more strength intensive than doing the washing or grinding grain.

[Skipp]

There are a fair number of legitimate criticisms you can have for the WoT show but when you choose to nitpick the idea of a Woman blacksmith you lose all sorts of credibility.

 

Wheel of time has always been diverse and took a different view of gender norms. The show runners are  clearly leaning into that.  Women soldiers, mercenarys, heros and now blacksmiths, oh my!

 

Choose your battles else where.

[Windigo]

7 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Yes but also quite often the female blacksmiths, that where still very rare, actually took over the forges of their husbands as a widow.

 

And as you point out the items they made where not the larger pieces.

 

I have no doubt that women's bones would have changed in regards to repeated manual labour. I also dont doubt that repeated use of a large sledgehammer is more strength intensive than doing the washing or grinding grain.

Took them over, or worked in the family business, but then that is how most people learned trades.
I have done both, and grinding grain on a stone, or using a hand churn or wash plunger are all strength intensive. 
While I had issues with Perrin having a wife, in a small town, like Emonds Field there is nothing that is out of possibility for there to have been a female blacksmith. it is not out of scope in the WoT world, where there are female soldiers,  Illuminators, Inventors, grooms, Inn owners. 

[Ralph]

Have you seen the interview with BS where he reported his conversation with RJII about the fridging, and that he pushed for it to be Haral, and RJII explained why he wanted it to be his wife specifically?

 

He didn't say it was to have a strong woman fulfilling a man's role. 

 

[Ralph]

5 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

 

My working premise remains that Rafe Judkins proposed and had Amazon accept an 8 season 64+ hour $10 million per episode treatment (excluding marketing) of the Wheel of Time that outlines the overall and character specific plots, episode breakdowns, estimated cast costs, location costs, production budgets, timelines, concerns and risks before season 1 was even greenlit. The whole series is probably already approved contingent on the success of seasons 1 and 2. He basically asked Amazon for $320 million ($10 million per episode and doubled for marketing) with an option for $960 million more dollars to produce the entire Wheel of Time (about the cost of a SW trilogy). The Wheel of Time is going to cost more than $1 Billion over 8 years. There's no way there isn't a VERY detailed plan, that outlines exactly what's going on the screen. And as a result, exactly what they're changing from the books.

 

THAT's why I think they have some master plan.  Because for $1 Billion, there has to be.

 

This isn't Star Wars, with a built in audience but no plot - their lack of foresight shows - they've told the same basic story 4 times in 9 movies. It's not Children of Dune. a true sequel we may never see.  This is the Wheel of Time - a true, self-contained singular story entity. Amazon knows that if Season 2 is successful, there's a market, and they're on the hook until season 8, because there's no good place to stop

 

The "fan fic material" is added now, to avoid explaining it later when it matters, and to give depth to the world. Without Logain, we don't know why Rand being able to channel is so dangerous; without Steppin we don't know why Lan goes stark raving mad. It's TV, you can't just have Thom or Loial recite the Karatheon Cycle or the Great Hunt in plain chant, and consider it exposition. it won't fly. Hence, show don't tell, and making up scenes that aren't in the books

 

I am sure they have planned out certain parts of the storyline, but I haven't seen anything that means me think they have planned every episode. 

 

Nothing I have seen makes me think that. 

 

Eg, 

Question 6 - Future seasons

Do you have the plot of all the seasons roughly mapped out?

Judkins

Yeah, between Season One and Two we made a rough map of how the series could break down into seasons. It can always change obviously, but important to know where we are going and how we are getting there so we build it right if @amazonprimevideo keeps us around for the long haul :)

But specific points have def been done so. Eg, simple things like dropping M's staff, and I believe also some more complex things like we have discussed

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

6 hours ago, UOweTamASword said:

I don’t understand how anyone thinks the show runners have some master plan for the changes they’re making to the lore. Disney didn’t even plan out the sequel trilogy for Star Wars, yet you think a guy who wrote a few episodes of a so-so show is masterminding “fixes” to RJ’s masterpiece?

 

The simple thing is to maybe stick to the material you have (which isn’t too shabby), within reason. But there’s nothing reasonable or rational about these changes - e.g. adding fanfic material like Stepin when you’re short on time already smh.

 

I get really frustrated when I read things like this. First of all, trying to tease out why stories have been inserted for the TV show (like Steppins) and thinking about what they are trying to show us with that story and how that's important down the road, is not assuming that the showrunner and writers are "masterminds". However, they are not stupid, and in spite of all the criticisms levelled at Rafe, every single interview of his shows that he 1) knows the books and 2) cares about them deeply. 

 

Second of all, inserting new scenes or making changes to suit the medium of television is not someone coming in and saying "This thing is actually trash, let's fix it". I honestly don't understand the viewpoint that the show are somehow "out to get" Robert Jordan's writing in this way. Is it so hard to believe that all of the people involved in the show are also artists with their own ideas for how best to tell this story? 

 

---

 

In terms of the topic, I think television can tell epic fantasy stories quite beautifully really but it is probably the hardest type of story to adapt from page to screen. The depth of worldbuilding alone can be very difficult, things where I may complain they are not explaining enough to non-readers, it's so hard to get that across without the lines of dialogue coming off as cheesy or sounding like exposition vs. natural dialogue. I don't think the show has done a great job in some aspects of the world building (The Ways, Loial and the Ogier, the prophecies around the Dragon) but I am giving the show the benefit of the doubt at the minute as I think they have done other things incredibly well (episode 4 really stands out as showing the potential of what this show could be in my opinion). An example of good world building in my opinion are The Expanse and Shadow & Bone. I had read somewhere that S&B was actually a poor adaptation of the source material but as a non-book reader, I was really immersed in the world and I thought they did a great job of getting things across via television that I imagine might have been exposition dumps during "training" or something in the books. 

 

Obviously books have huge advantages in terms of taking their time to build world, characters, magic systems etc., and that is difficult for television to get across for sure. However I think TV and movies are more than capable of adapting these things effectively. I also think that with the right actors and people behind the camera, material can be really elevated from page to screen. I know it's a bone of contention among book fans, but I think the route they've gone down for the Lan-Nynaeve relationship for example, is really excellent in the TV show. The actors are so good together in my view, it's actually enhancing their interactions for me as I am re-reading EotW at the minute.

 

The biggest obstacle with adaptation of epic fantasy though is without a doubt budget. But I don't think they are incompatible

[king of nowhere]

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

No they are still physically weaker but the reliance on survival has been lessened allowing women to branch out into alternate fields.

 

No the maidens would still be weaker than the men but they have trained and would not seek to battle as a pure test of strength.

 

Its just a fact of nature that women are not as strong as men, when in a society that does not have modern advantages this leads to people naturally filling roles that are more suited to there strengths. 

true, but you saw leila, she was a big strong woman, she was easily stronger than most men. have you seen her arms? I am a big strong man, and I would not want to have a fistfight with her.

 

people naturally fill roles that are more suited to their strengths, in ancient society as much as today; people who are good with mathematics pick up some scientific degree and work with it, people with artistic inclinations work in design or marketing. it's just that today we consider individual strenghts, instead of dividing them in categories by external traits.

[Daenelia]

I had to do a quick google search for female blacksmiths in medieval; times to combat the ridiculousness.

https://workingtheflame.com/female-blacksmiths-in-history/

 

There. There were female blacksmiths. Go figure.

"here are several primary documents that prove the existence of female blacksmiths during this time period. The Holkham Bible of the 1300s, for example, includes an image of a woman forging a nail (above). It is assumed that this woman is the wife of a blacksmith and that is why she is shown working at the anvil, but regardless of her position, the illustration provides a glimpse into the work of women in the middle ages and their many roles."

 

Oh my.

 

Add that to the fact that we're talking about a fictional fantasy world, with fictional fantasy technology, fictional people and fysiology and fictional materials ... come on. Let's give up on that. Or I WILL have to challenge you to armwestling.

 

But back to topic.

 

TV is basically incompatible with personal theatre of the mind, which we use to imagine worlds and people. When we reasd we are both in communication wit the author as well as totally alone in the world we are offered. TV can never ever do what your mind can conjure up. It's not possible.

 

Given that we all have different backgrounds, different knowledge and frames through which we see a filtered version of the story the writer gives us: no tv show will ever ever EVER come close. Not even when you have the chance and unlimited budget to do it yourself.

 

But! If we look at tv as just another means to bring us a story, more structured and less our own, than you can do any epic fantasy you like. As long as the viewer can supend disbelief, and not get trapped in discussions about how strong women have to be to lift a hammer.

[king of nowhere]

Just now, Daenelia said:

But! If we look at tv as just another means to bring us a story, more structured and less our own, than you can do any epic fantasy you like. As long as the viewer can supend disbelief, and not get trapped in discussions about how strong women have to be to lift a hammer.

yes. that could have been a better conclusion to my initial argument.

tv is not well suited to adapt epic fantasy, but it can do a good job provided we look at it as another mean to bring us a story.

....

or maybe not. still feels too close to "this is mediocre, but it's the best possible with this medium so like it anyway"

...

let's try a different way: it's a story that must be told in a different way, and this different way has strenghts and limitations which you may or may not like. feels better.

[Daenelia]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes. that could have been a better conclusion to my initial argument.

tv is not well suited to adapt epic fantasy, but it can do a good job provided we look at it as another mean to bring us a story.

....

or maybe not. still feels too close to "this is mediocre, but it's the best possible with this medium so like it anyway"

...

let's try a different way: it's a story that must be told in a different way, and this different way has strenghts and limitations which you may or may not like. feels better.

Still. One can dream about trying to make their own version, as close as they can, as it is in their own heads. Dreaming of unlimited budget, no limit on which actors to contract ... and imagine then: we get to see ALL those versions ?

 

I am already overwhelmed by Youtube videos... ? I'd never have time.

 

But yes: there are limits and there will be things presented differently because of either limits or choices. And you can like it or not. No one owes you your own version of the story. And no one version of the story is objectively the correct one. [controversial mode on] Not Even The Author's.[/controversial mode off]

 

?

[Raezold]

Of course it is compatible.

You just have to have deep pockets, a committed crew and keep your silly personal views to yourself.

[DigificWriter]

44 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

No one owes you your own version of the story. And no one version of the story is objectively the correct one

 

* chef's kiss*

 

This comment needs to go on a giant banner.

[Windigo]

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

To highlight there was this small reality show a number of years ago where they dropped a couple in the wilderness and the woman went out with the intention that they would split all the activities straight down the middle. Inside the week it was the man that was doing almost all of the physical activities as the effort and the results reaped from those activities where much easier to achieve with that split.

 

I'm not diminishing woman here but its just a biological truth that men have a advantage in strength.

This would all depend on who the women and or men were and what activities, skills, life they had led before being dropped in that wilderness.  
Looking at reality shows is hardly indicative of real life situations as they are choosing who they are "dropping" off. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Windigo

[Jaysen Gore]

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

Im sure that there is a master plan im with you on that but if we look at the steppin part a couple of questions come to mind.

Even with a accelerated timeline Lan wont go crazy before im guessing season 4ish from Moiraines death thats a long way off. Thats plenty of time to learn the lore of the warders without 1 massive exposition dump.

Are they going to remove Rosamund Pike the clear lead actor of the series. If so for nearly half of its run.

Not all exposition is bad you just cant make it overwhelming. Plently of chances to show the fall of a Aes Sedai and the effect it has on a warder.

I would have much rather LTT vs Ishmael as the shown proof of the danger of tainted saidin than using Logain.

On Steppin and the bond, I don't think there was another time to show it. In the books, we don't see the warders at FD in combat, there's the brief episode with Lan and Adeleas' warder and the flying spoiler, And then it's the split when we see any warder but Lan - and none of our PoV characters are there. So there isn't really another situation where multiple warders and our PoV characters are in danger before we start needing the bond consequences. And doing it in conjunction with Logain kills 2 birds with one stone (not calling Kerene a bird), since you don't have to set up a new danger to create the pay off with the warders.  I actually think the way they did this was clever, but just too long.

 

And yes, I am firmly convinced that Ms. Pike is going to get some time off during the series. I noted elsewhere they could shorten it fairly easily by moving Genji up, but in order for Rand to stand on his own, she needs to go away. I'm actually curious to see what they do with her in season 2, since Mo's book role was minimal.

 

LTT / Ishamael - which we will get, likely this week - is okay for the madness, and the power, but that could be interpreted as a Dragon thing. Not a male channeler thing. They'll show the madness 3 times before they show it when it really matters. (Rule of 3)

 

This just highlights why I think there's a plan; it's a puzzle that has to be put together, and moving pieces around forces changes on other things; too many changes, and it falls apart. Or, in terms of the books, the character and plot arcs of the EF5 are Ta'veren for the show, and to keep them on their path, everything else around them are forced to shift to respond to those 5 arcs.

[JenniferL]

About half the posts in this thread are bickering about lady blacksmiths and not the difficulty of adapting fantasy to television. Let’s get back on topic. 

[UOweTamASword]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I get really frustrated when I read things like this. First of all, trying to tease out why stories have been inserted for the TV show (like Steppins) and thinking about what they are trying to show us with that story and how that's important down the road, is not assuming that the showrunner and writers are "masterminds". However, they are not stupid, and in spite of all the criticisms levelled at Rafe, every single interview of his shows that he 1) knows the books and 2) cares about them deeply. 

 

Second of all, inserting new scenes or making changes to suit the medium of television is not someone coming in and saying "This thing is actually trash, let's fix it". I honestly don't understand the viewpoint that the show are somehow "out to get" Robert Jordan's writing in this way. Is it so hard to believe that all of the people involved in the show are also artists with their own ideas for how best to tell this story? 

 

---

 

In terms of the topic, I think television can tell epic fantasy stories quite beautifully really but it is probably the hardest type of story to adapt from page to screen. The depth of worldbuilding alone can be very difficult, things where I may complain they are not explaining enough to non-readers, it's so hard to get that across without the lines of dialogue coming off as cheesy or sounding like exposition vs. natural dialogue. I don't think the show has done a great job in some aspects of the world building (The Ways, Loial and the Ogier, the prophecies around the Dragon) but I am giving the show the benefit of the doubt at the minute as I think they have done other things incredibly well (episode 4 really stands out as showing the potential of what this show could be in my opinion). An example of good world building in my opinion are The Expanse and Shadow & Bone. I had read somewhere that S&B was actually a poor adaptation of the source material but as a non-book reader, I was really immersed in the world and I thought they did a great job of getting things across via television that I imagine might have been exposition dumps during "training" or something in the books. 

 

Obviously books have huge advantages in terms of taking their time to build world, characters, magic systems etc., and that is difficult for television to get across for sure. However I think TV and movies are more than capable of adapting these things effectively. I also think that with the right actors and people behind the camera, material can be really elevated from page to screen. I know it's a bone of contention among book fans, but I think the route they've gone down for the Lan-Nynaeve relationship for example, is really excellent in the TV show. The actors are so good together in my view, it's actually enhancing their interactions for me as I am re-reading EotW at the minute.

 

The biggest obstacle with adaptation of epic fantasy though is without a doubt budget. But I don't think they are incompatible

You don’t think they’re masterminds but just read the previous posts, including the one below, and you’ll see that many do hold to the false theory that there is a master plan for this series with payoffs to all of these changes.

 

In reality you have writers who are making stuff up that sounds good and, no, I didn’t call them stupid, but have they thought things out as far as Jordan did? Absolutely not. So why make the changes, when you’ve got something better?

 

“Is it so hard to believe that all of the people involved in the show are also artists with their own ideas for how best to tell this story?”

 

I mean, this is the whole crux of the issue. Their ideas aren’t what’s been validated by tens of millions of fans. They’re trading supposedly stuff to payoff in season 3, while sacrificing character development for the main cast in season 1.

 

None of the changes so far have been necessary for the medium imo. But many indisputably had zero purpose, like making Mat’s parents deadbeats and him a reluctant thief. Am I supposed to believe a young man can’t be mischievous unless he’s got a gritty backstory? Smh And don’t get me started on Perrin’s unrequited love, after that I’d lay money down more of the writers have finished the Twilight series than WoT.

 

 

10 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

 

My working premise remains that Rafe Judkins proposed and had Amazon accept an 8 season 64+ hour $10 million per episode treatment (excluding marketing) of the Wheel of Time that outlines the overall and character specific plots, episode breakdowns, estimated cast costs, location costs, production budgets, timelines, concerns and risks before season 1 was even greenlit. The whole series is probably already approved contingent on the success of seasons 1 and 2. He basically asked Amazon for $320 million ($10 million per episode and doubled for marketing) with an option for $960 million more dollars to produce the entire Wheel of Time (about the cost of a SW trilogy). The Wheel of Time is going to cost more than $1 Billion over 8 years. There's no way there isn't a VERY detailed plan, that outlines exactly what's going on the screen. And as a result, exactly what they're changing from the books.

 

THAT's why I think they have some master plan.  Because for $1 Billion, there has to be.

 

This isn't Star Wars, with a built in audience but no plot - their lack of foresight shows - they've told the same basic story 4 times in 9 movies. It's not Children of Dune. a true sequel we may never see.  This is the Wheel of Time - a true, self-contained singular story entity. Amazon knows that if Season 2 is successful, there's a market, and they're on the hook until season 8, because there's no good place to stop

 

The "fan fic material" is added now, to avoid explaining it later when it matters, and to give depth to the world. Without Logain, we don't know why Rand being able to channel is so dangerous; without Steppin we don't know why Lan goes stark raving mad. It's TV, you can't just have Thom or Loial recite the Karatheon Cycle or the Great Hunt in plain chant, and consider it exposition. it won't fly. Hence, show don't tell, and making up scenes that aren't in the books

 

@Ralph basically debunked this theory. When asked if they had a plan, they basically said they didn’t develop what sounds like a very rough sketch until after they’d finished season 1!

 

Which honestly makes sense with how Hollywood treats these things. Just look at how the Game of Thrones guys pitched it, the only details they gave were on the pilot, episode 1! It’s much more important to tell the studio execs what they want to hear, than make a long plan that exec’s will just make their assistants read.