Mat In Season 1

[Juan Farstrider]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Why would he care in the books at this point either?  You act like it's a deep part of their heritage and culture.  It's not.  It's a story Moraine spins at them when they're going at her as an angry mob.  She shames them into not being brutes and thugs by claiming they come from something noble.  Before that, none of them would have been able to say they were of Manetheren.   

When it's raised later?  It was Verin's suggestion, not some deep seated call of their ancestral binds.

Wow, they are so much more easily lead/mislead than I would have believed. I would have thought something was awakening within them, not that they were being manipulated. I shudder to think you're right.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Wow, they are so much more easily lead/mislead than I would have believed. I would have thought something was awakening within them, not that they were being manipulated. I shudder to think you're right.

The goal and the result can be good regardless of the intent, though yeah it does put a different spin.

I think Moraine's intent was simply to get them to calm and disperse without her or Lan having to hurt anyone.  That it might have sparked more is cool but I don't think it was her goal.

Similar with Verin.  The people wanted a symbol, or she made them think they wanted one, and just offered the Wolf and the Red Eagle.  Her goal was to put Perrin as a leader and see where that drug him.  But it resulted in essentially a new kingdom being founded and that was the doing of the people, not her.

[Andra]

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The goal and the result can be good regardless of the intent, though yeah it does put a different spin.

I think Moraine's intent was simply to get them to calm and disperse without her or Lan having to hurt anyone.  That it might have sparked more is cool but I don't think it was her goal.

Similar with Verin.  The people wanted a symbol, or she made them think they wanted one, and just offered the Wolf and the Red Eagle.  Her goal was to put Perrin as a leader and see where that drug him.  But it resulted in essentially a new kingdom being founded and that was the doing of the people, not her.

Actually, it wasn't Verin that suggested a symbol, it was Alanna.  And the symbol she suggested was the Red Wolf-head, not the Red Eagle.

The Red Eagle came when Faile brought the men from Watch Hill - their Mayor had it.

 

Bran al'Vere had it put up for the same reason the Mayors of the other three villages did.  Because the people of the Two Rivers wanted it.  "Almost by acclamation" is how I believe the book puts it.

Surviving the trollocs and the Whitecloaks gave them a new sense of themselves that they hadn't possessed before.

So they used a symbol that tied them to their own history, and to a story larger than themselves.  A symbol that carried pride in their heritage.

 

They learned about that history from Moiraine's story, and had now had a year to spread it through the whole district and fire everyone's interest, before they finally adopted it for themselves.

 

It doesn't really matter if that pride was Moiraine's intent.  But it was certainly its result.  Their blood, their heritage, their pride.  And it was specifically the connection to Manetheren that they now felt tied to.  Not just to some nebulous "Old Blood."

Edited February 15, 2022 by Andra

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Andra said:

It doesn't really matter if that pride was Moiraine's intent.  But it was certainly its result.  Their blood, their heritage, their pride.  And it was specifically the connection to Manetheren that they now felt tied to.  Not just to some nebulous "Old Blood."

Thank you for the correction on Alanna vs Verin and where the Red Eagle came from.  ?

For the rest, I don't disagree with anything you said until the end.

And I don't disagree so much as don't agree it means what you suggest.  The TR was proud of their heritage by that point, no argument.  But I never once saw them present themselves as blood of manetheren, they were still the Two Rivers.  The references to old blood were always using the term "The old blood is strong" or some such and it was always someone ELSE describing the TR.  The TR people are strong because they choose to stand up and be strong, not because of their blood.  Other people use that as a cop out, a talk off to give some reason for how the TR behaves that doesn't show their own inadequacy for not raising to the same standard.  

Can you point to one Two Rivers person who leans back on the old blood for anything other than maybe explaining spouting the old tongue for no reason?

[Andra]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Can you point to one Two Rivers person who leans back on the old blood for anything other than maybe explaining spouting the old tongue for no reason?

You mean aside from adopting that specific banner as their own?

[KakitaOCU]

16 minutes ago, Andra said:

You mean aside from adopting that specific banner as their own?

Flying that banner has an affect, but if their heritage was that important to them they wouldn't let Perrin casually barter it away, which he does, publicly and without any concern what so ever.

[Andra]

13 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Flying that banner has an affect, but if their heritage was that important to them they wouldn't let Perrin casually barter it away, which he does, publicly and without any concern what so ever.

Ummmm ...

What?

 

His people spent months flying the banner even while he kept yelling at them to take it down.  The idea that they weren't "concerned" about it is ludicrous.  He didn't ever casually barter it away publicly.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Andra said:

Ummmm ...

What?

 

His people spent months flying the banner even while he kept yelling at them to take it down.  The idea that they weren't "concerned" about it is ludicrous.  He didn't ever casually barter it away publicly.

He swore to never raise the name Manetheren to the Seanchan in view of a dozen or more witnesses who would have had no reason to keep quiet about it (And in Alliandre's place, plenty of reason to make sure it was heard).

He did so without concern or pause, just a "Here's a sweetener to our deal, I will revoke all claim to Manetheren and give you the Red Eagle Banner."

[Andra]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

He swore to never raise the name Manetheren to the Seanchan in view of a dozen or more witnesses who would have had no reason to keep quiet about it (And in Alliandre's place, plenty of reason to make sure it was heard).

He did so without concern or pause, just a "Here's a sweetener to our deal, I will revoke all claim to Manetheren and give you the Red Eagle Banner."

Which has nothing to do with what his people - either back in the Two Rivers or traveling with him -  thought about themselves, or about what the banner had ever meant to any of them.

Since neither he nor his people had ever claimed they were trying to set up their own country, the agreement with the Seanchan changed nothing about the relevance of their heritage.

 

The Blood of Manetheren was their history, not their political ambition.

 

In fact his repeated objection to it being displayed is because he knew that's what other people seeing it would think.

[nsmallw]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:45 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

Some no-name website that floods you with pop up advertising cites an "insider", makes up a quote, and the rest of the article is filled with generic Wheel of Time TV show info. Get all the clicks from WoT fans curious about what happened, small enough not to get on any radar to suffer legal pushback. Job done. 

 

 

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