Why Do they keep acting as if the dragon reborn can be female?

[Ralph]

14 minutes ago, dwn said:

Forget gender. If we want to be logical about it then population growth alone clubs reincarnation over the head with a spanner.

 

Unless a soul can be divided ?

[Yojimbo]

48 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Unless a soul can be divided ?

You're just messin with us now, aren't you?

[fra85uk]

1 hour ago, JJLXL said:

It's not going to happen, but if the DR is anyone but Rand...I'm out. 

I imagine they are not going to dare to change the dragon but they are likely to find more subtle ways to downplay him.

[Kudzu]

10 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

This comment tells me two things:

1) You and the OP aren't that dissimilar in your opinions

 

2) You're not taking into account the notion that the possibility of the Dragon Reborn being female just doesn't impact the mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is, but the nature of how their story unfolds. 

 

By establishing that they've made a change to the metaphysics of the WoT world in order to degender souls, Rafe and his team have in turn made it possible for themselves to establish that in some of the Dragon's past lives, they were female, which is something that Rafe has already all but confirmed is going to happen.

 

I've learned through spoilers that, in the books beyond Eye of the World, Rand starts seeing the former Dragon, Lews Therin, whom we know has been cast, but if a change isn't made and Rand ends up being the Dragon Reborn in the TV series, the nature of whatever he ends up learning from or being told by said vision is likely to be impacted by the fact that Lews Therin, as the Dragon, would have been female at some point in one of his previous lives.

 

With all due respect if you haven't read the books, you don't really have an understanding of how souls being gendered or not would effect how the story unfolds and I'm telling you it's pretty irrelevant.

 

There is scant evidence in the text of the books that souls are gendered, it's never stated explicitly and the few breadcrumbs that do exist would require very minor changes to fit the show lore.

 

Yes the DR gets memories and the voice of the former Dragon in his head. But LTT was male and there is no evidence that he or the current DR has any recollections of lives prior to that. There is zero information in the books or in anything RJ has said (that I'm aware of) about incarnations of the Dragon prior to LTT, they have no impact on the story as it's written. Dragons prior to LTT being female means nothing to the story as nobody has any idea who any of them were or what they did. Of course Rafe may choose to add that in, but even if he did, it wouldn't have to change much.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, dwn said:

Forget gender. If we want to be logical about it then population growth alone clubs reincarnation over the head with a spanner.

Except Karma says you can come back as a Dung Beetle. So nope; plenty of room at the inn.

[TheMountain]

15 hours ago, Frenata said:

 

See also: Paul, Alia, and Leto 2 Atreides. But I think the 'gendered/degendered' part of that is much less a contributor than merely having the awakened memories at all.

RJ said that the Dragon is always male.

[DaddyFinn]

27 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

RJ said that the Dragon is always male.

The show may have combined Dragon and Amaresu to a single soul

[EasyBadger]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:46 AM, The Purple Ajah said:

Does anybody have a quote that proves that souls are "gender-locked" from Robert Jordan? I can't really find a quote from the books that definitively proves such a thing. The only RJ quote I have found on the matter seems to indicate that it might be true for the Dragon, but not all individuals.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=female+dragon #13

 

"a soul ready to be reborn cannot change gender". See also the other quotes on that page with specific examples, e.g. it isn't just the dragon (Birgitte will always be a woman, whoever she's reborn as)

[DojoToad]

51 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

The show may have combined Dragon and Amaresu to a single soul

But why?  Some 'generic' hero of the horn?  I had to look up Amaresu in my handy WoT Companion because she wasn't ringing a bell - she doesn't even warrant a full line of description.

 

Oh right, the gender thing.  Never mind...

[Ralph]

31 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But why?  Some 'generic' hero of the horn?  I had to look up Amaresu in my handy WoT Companion because she wasn't ringing a bell - she doesn't even warrant a full line of description.

 

Oh right, the gender thing.  Never mind...

I assume the point meant was bc RJ once said that in some cycles Amaresu's soul performs the function the Dragon does in ours

 

Or, in other words, the function the Dragon performs in the cycle of the Wheel can be male or female, but in each cycle it is only one or the other. And when it is different it has to be a different soul

Edited December 16, 2021 by Ralph

[Bruan]

15 hours ago, dwn said:

Forget gender. If we want to be logical about it then population growth alone clubs reincarnation over the head with a spanner.

Well, if the cosmos, the heavens or wherever it is that souls go to sit and wait for reincarnation is infinite, it could have an infinite number of souls, both male and female. They don’t all have to be reincarnated all at once every single time...

Edited December 16, 2021 by Bruan

[AdamA]

14 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Except Karma says you can come back as a Dung Beetle. So nope; plenty of room at the inn.

Then you definitely can't be gender-locked because souls previously incarnated in sexually dimorphic species may reincarnate as species that reproduce asexually, don't have sexual dimorphism, or can change sex over the span of a single lifetime.

 

Gender-locking also seems jacked up for intersexed souls. What happens if some future genetically enhanced human race that has cured abnormal chromosome disorders no longer has intersex people? Or if we figure out how to reproduce without sex and no longer need men? Now there can never be a dragon at all.

[Jaysen Gore]

The other thing I would add to this conversation is to highlight the fact that in the novels, we do meet characters who remember all of their multiple lives, and they are all consistently themselves and the same sex in each one. The Heroes of the Horn repeat the same roles in the same stories over and over again, and one of them is the Dragon. There is no confusion within the books. For those important enough to be Heroes, they are always the same gender, because it is always the same individual soul. And Artur confirms LTT is one of the HEroes, just not recalled because he's actually in the world.

 

In addition, the Aelfinn give Mat access to select memories from his past lives, and ever reference we get on the page is to a male past.

 

I'm saying the show isn't going to mess with this, but ultimately, I guess I just think this discussion is a mask / outgrowth of the "Who is the DR?" question, and a lot of that will be cleared up in relatively short order.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Bruan said:

Well, if the cosmos, the heavens or wherever it is that souls go to sit and wait for reincarnation is infinite, it could have an infinite number of souls, both male and female. They don’t all have to be reincarnated all at once every single time...

This is a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" issue

[Kazhvar]

On 12/15/2021 at 1:53 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

... they've cultivated it in order to keep the mystery alive 

 

They havent cultivated anything. If it is some multi dragon or female dragon or they attempt to behave as if the DR has been female in the past then the production team needs to change to name of the show and the characters because it will no longer be the WoT story and instead the beginning of some new fantasy novel that started in 2021. Wont have a need to watch at that point

Edited December 16, 2021 by Kazhvar

[Jaysen Gore]

9 minutes ago, AdamA said:

Then you definitely can't be gender-locked because souls previously incarnated in sexually dimorphic species may reincarnate as species that reproduce asexually, don't have sexual dimorphism, or can change sex over the span of a single lifetime.

 

Gender-locking also seems jacked up for intersexed souls. What happens if some future genetically enhanced human race that has cured abnormal chromosome disorders no longer has intersex people? Or if we figure out how to reproduce without sex and no longer need men? Now there can never be a dragon at all.

While that's possible, that's the case if you believe in reincarnation in the "real" world.  And can't be conflated with the book world. And while I appreciate that Jordan said Amerasu ( A Mary Sue? Really?) sometimes filled the role of the Dragon, but that would have been Amerasu, not LTT.

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, Kazhvar said:

They havent cultivated anything. If it is some multi dragon or female dragon or they attempt to behave as if the DR has been female in the past then the production team needs to change to name of the show and the characters because it will no longer be the WoT story and instead the beginning of some new fantasy novel that started in 2021. Wont have a need to watch at that point

 

Just quit watching now, because the show isn't going to fit your personal definition of what is or isn't "the WoT story" since Rafe has already said that some of the previous Dragons were female.

[Jaysen Gore]

28 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Just quit watching now, because the show isn't going to fit your personal definition of what is or isn't "the WoT story" since Rafe has already said that some of the previous Dragons were female.

He also said unreliable narrators were going to play a bigger role in the show, so I will continue to take anything he says with a massive grain of salt. Especially if it allows me to ignore stuff I don't like.

[Gothic Flame]

50 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Rafe has already said that some of the previous Dragons were female.

Yes, because it's his story that he's telling. Not Jordan's.

[TheDreadReader]

18 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Yes, because it's his story that he's telling. Not Jordan's.

 

Mileages can vary of course.  There was Jordan's whole Champion of the Light/Amerasu concept that he talked about.  Replace Dragon with Champion of the Light and you get a synthesis of the two things with the same observable phenomena.

 

As it is the possible places we've seen this change implemented  are in the doubts of prophetic interpretation and possibly the female voice speaking to Logain neither of which are particularly large changes (to me).  Perhaps, that changes down the road, who knows.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

14 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

Mileages can vary of course.

*shrugs

I'm just not interested in someone else's vision...a vision that claims 5 potential dragons...or a "many-headed" dragon, among other things.

[DigificWriter]

17 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

I'm just not interested in someone else's vision

 

Don't watch any adaptations of anything, ever, then.

 

This show was never going to be anything other than Rafe Judkins and other people's 'vision' of the WoT novels.

Edited December 16, 2021 by DigificWriter

[Ryan al'Thor]

Bottom line, Rafe and co messed up with this change. It doesn’t add enough to the mystery of who is TDR to justify. Ah hindsight.

[Wraith235]

as far as the 5 headed dragon ... they have 5 ppl from EF 
and most of your team based shows start with 5 members 
Power Rangers, Captain planet, Voltron - so its not a difficult leap to go to a 5 headed Dragon

however like I said ... some leaks leave me hopeful 

[Gothic Flame]

41 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

This show was never going to be anything other than Rafe Judkins and other people's 'vision' of the WoT novels.

Should be called for what it really is then; 

"Welcome to Rafe's Reinvention of the Wheel!"