Siuan and Moiraine’s Relationship

[Jaysen Gore]

You know, I'm going to love watching this board when they discover that Egwene / Elayne will be the way they both eliminate Gawyn from the show, and reduce Rand's harem to a less lecherous level.

[Els]

Loved this relationship introduction in the show because of the roller coaster of emotions that it gave. Have done one full read of the book in the past two months (first time read) and I truly did not think Siuan and Moiraine were going to have an intimate relationship. Going through the hall scene, they both really sold the intensity of the trial (or questioning or whatever you want to call it). Sophie Okonedo truly commanded the scene. 

And then you get their scene together and it was the perfect touch of longing, vulnerability, and intimacy. I enjoyed the 'pull back the mask' of Moiraine and insight to her as a human being. The little pufferfish comment got me - Rosamund Pike's soft smile at that ? You really feel how much they care for each other in this scene. 

 

Lastly the oath rod scene.. holy emotions. I still cannot watch this without tearing up. Duty really is heavier than a mountain here. 

 

Would love for them to reunite several seasons down the road but I fear their paths will diverge from each other and stay true to the books with Them and Gareth. For some reason I can't picture S/M getting their happy ending in this and it makes me sad. 

[JenniferL]

I was reminded that the 13th Depository had an article about same sex relationships in Randland. Enjoy. 
 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html

[Windigo]

8 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Moiraine and Siuan’s relationship basically ends here anyway. They never see each other again, or perhaps they do just before the last battle and Siuan’s death. In fact both believe the other is dead before that I believe.

 

I can see Gareth and Siuan happening if not exactly as it did in the books. Moiraine and Thom seems harder, but it came out of nowhere in the books even though I thought it was rather cute.

Didn't they see each other when the Amyrillian visits Shienar? 

[MasterAblar]

14 minutes ago, Windigo said:

Didn't they see each other when the Amyrillian visits Shienar? 

Well to be honest I assume that’s not going to happen in the show considering Moiraine was banished and all that remains to be done from their meeting in Shienar is telling Rand he is the Dragon. 
 

It might still happen or course, I just wouldn’t really bet on it. Even if it does though. Moiraine and Siuan don’t cross paths the entire series starting from book 2. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by MasterAblar

[DigificWriter]

45 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

I was reminded that the 13th Depository had an article about same sex relationships in Randland. Enjoy. 
 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html

 

That was a fascinating read, and I don't even mind that it was full of in-depth Spoilers.

 

Regarding whether the confirmation of an ongoing same-sex relationship between Moiraine and Siuan on the show precludes later opposite-gender relationships for one or both characters, one of the hosts of the YouTube channel Maidens of the Spear views one particular opposite-gender relationship that happens for one of said characters as being queerplatonic, and it's entirely possible that the show could choose to take that angle should it adapt said relationship.

[Yojimbo]

9 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This comment represents a misinterpretation of what we have both been shown and repeatedly told by the producers and actors.

Only most viewers don't go looking for that information.  They watch the show and form opinions based on what they saw.  My wife, for instance, said "so they're lovers" when Lan got in the tub with Moraine.  What other interpretation was she supposed to make from that?  How many people take baths with their platonic friends?   

[Delirium]

On 12/11/2021 at 2:13 PM, fitzwell said:

Can you quote where the kiss is in the books?  The only reference I've seen to them being called pillow friends was by another Aes Sedai talking about Moraine and Suine in chapter 17. 

Various quotes from New Spring hinting that their relationship wasn't platonic...

 

Last night, revealing her woes had seemed out of place, a trifle compared to what they knew the world faced, but Moiraine had no hesitation in telling her now. Before she finished, Siuan enveloped her in a strong, comforting hug. They had wept on each other’s shoulders much more often than either had availed herself of Merean’s. She had never been as close to anyone as she was to Siuan. Or loved anyone as much.

- New Spring The Novel, Surprises

Siuan was right, in a way, about her knowing Siuan’s tricks. Siuan liked to use tickles at the worst possible moment, sudden pokes in unpleasant places, embarrassing caresses…

- New Spring The Novel, Practice

They were going to be sharing that bed, and Siuan knew exactly which ticklish spots could reduce her to helpless laughter and pleading.

- New Spring The Novel, The Evening Star

“Not troublesome, really. High-spirited. None of the tricks Moiraine played were mean, but they were plentiful. Novice and Accepted, she was sent to my study more often than any three other girls. Except for her pillow-friend Siuan. Of course, pillow-friends frequently get into tangles together, but with those two, one was never sent to me without the other. The last time the very night after passing for the shawl.”

- New Spring The Novel, An Arrival

Moiraine kept her face smooth, kept her hands from knotting into fists, but she could do nothing about burning cheeks. That ruefully amused frown, as if she were still Accepted. She needed seasoning did she? Well, perhaps she did, some, but still. And spreading out all these intimacies!

“I think you know all of me that you need to know,” she told Cadsuane stiffly. How close she and Siuan had been was no one’s business but theirs.

(thanks to 13th Depository)

 

[DigificWriter]

14 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

How many people take baths with their platonic friends?

 

Anyone who lives in a culture where public bathing is a thing.

[Yojimbo]

14 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Anyone who lives in a culture where public bathing is a thing.

So then anyone from a culture where public bathing (with both men and women in the same tub)  isn't a thing is simply "misinterpreting" this scene?   

[JenniferL]

This discussion of Moiraine and Lan’s Definitely Not in the Books Gratuitous Hot Tub Party is not on topic for this thread. 

[notpropaganda73]

I love it. The scene of the two of them alone was probably one of the strongest of the whole series. It was also tastefully done. I'm a bit confused by people calling it a sex scene - we didn't actually *see* anything. The scene before the "on your knees" comment from Moiraine functions to show the audience that Siuan and Moiraine are not actually enemies and in fact, lovers. The scene after explores the prophecies, the Dragon and Siuan's dream/Moiraine's exile. There's no actual sex, just the understanding of sex. 

 

Sex scenes are when you actually see the characters going at it (at least in my book). WoT hasn't had a sex scene yet, and I hope they never do. The way they're handling it is much better. 

 

I did think the exile scene was OTT, and while Moiraine's changing of the oath and calling Siuan daughter of the river etc., was a nice touch for the characters, it just doesn't make sense that the other Aes Sedai couldn't hear it. It's a hard emotional moment for both characters but it just felt a bit "wtf" to me. 

[Daenelia]

5 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I did think the exile scene was OTT, and while Moiraine's changing of the oath and calling Siuan daughter of the river etc., was a nice touch for the characters, it just doesn't make sense that the other Aes Sedai couldn't hear it. It's a hard emotional moment for both characters but it just felt a bit "wtf" to me. 

 Yep, I get that. I figured that it was an open secret, or at least common knowledge that they had been lovers in the past (if not now, with people assuming they had broken up because of Suan becoming the AS).

 

And in addition to that, dont Aes Sedai really listen to the wordings of things said by their sisters? I mean, each of them know they can get away with not being completely honest by spinning words and meanings a certain way. So I assume everyone who heard the oath, heard what we heard. Moiraine accepting banishment ... as long as Suan was on the seat or in Tar Valon, what was it exactly...?

[DojoToad]

11 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

Only most viewers don't go looking for that information.  They watch the show and form opinions based on what they saw.  My wife, for instance, said "so they're lovers" when Lan got in the tub with Moraine.  What other interpretation was she supposed to make from that?  How many people take baths with their platonic friends?   

I do NOT!

 

If the show is trying to give this as an example of different cultural habits - then they need to make that clear.  They did not.  Given the time constraints they're running against (8 episodes), every scene needs to advance the story.  I fail to see how Moiraine and Lan getting splashy advanced anything.

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, JenniferL said:

This discussion of Moiraine and Lan’s Definitely Not in the Books Gratuitous Hot Tub Party is not on topic for this thread. 

Would it be on topic if the intimation is that Moiraine is bisexual?  I would want to know about my partners' extra-curriculars.

 

The show did not set up men and women bathing together as a normal, cultural activity.  Were I a non-book reader,  I would absolutely assume that Moiraine and Lan were sharing a bed after that scene.  They were very comfortable with their nakedness.

[Lethira the second]

I absolutely loved it! It felt classy.

 

I take issue with some of the writing -the conflict in the hall felt forced.  They could have found other catalysts for Siuan publicly tearing Moiraine off a strip.  Even her language 'my world' was off -the performance was top class.  I'm not enamoured with them using a Ter'angreal to meet up -but that is nitpicky.  What really shone above the writing was the performances -they were playful with one another and you could sense what they meant to each other.

 

Personally, I didn't like Siuan and Gareth in the books.  It felt more Stockholm syndrome than a proper relationship.  The scene with the two together gave a measure of closure as we never saw them reunite at the Last battle.  I always felt they had a deep close connection and to some degree whether or not sex was a part of it was immaterial to me.  On my reading, they were lovers in a non conforming sense.  -But damn -that kiss! Smoking hot!

 

The oath swearing also felt like clumsy writing being in public but also reminiscent of wedding vows.  

[flinn]

5 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

I absolutely loved it! It felt classy.

 

I take issue with some of the writing -the conflict in the hall felt forced.  They could have found other catalysts for Siuan publicly tearing Moiraine off a strip.  Even her language 'my world' was off -the performance was top class.  I'm not enamoured with them using a Ter'angreal to meet up -but that is nitpicky.  What really shone above the writing was the performances -they were playful with one another and you could sense what they meant to each other.

 

Personally, I didn't like Siuan and Gareth in the books.  It felt more Stockholm syndrome than a proper relationship.  The scene with the two together gave a measure of closure as we never saw them reunite at the Last battle.  I always felt they had a deep close connection and to some degree whether or not sex was a part of it was immaterial to me.  On my reading, they were lovers in a non conforming sense.  -But damn -that kiss! Smoking hot!

 

The oath swearing also felt like clumsy writing being in public but also reminiscent of wedding vows.  

 I personally didnt like either the Siuan/Gareth or the Moiraine/Thom relationships. Maybe if written in different ways.. but as it was, it just didnt sit well with me... BUT.. the butterfly effect is in play here. The rebels will need an army and the only way they are getting an army (recruits and respectability) is with a great captain. They were able to get Gareth because of his obsession with Siuan.  Thom is supposed to risk everything to go and save Moiraine. Without their relationship, why would he? I am sure they can come up with things in both circumstances, but because of the change they HAVE to come up with something. To be completely honest, so far, pretty much everything they have come up with to fill in holes from their changes have been pretty bad writing... Like Moiraine not able to come up with a plausible story for where she went. Very lazy writing.

[TheDreadReader]

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

 I personally didnt like either the Siuan/Gareth or the Moiraine/Thom relationships. Maybe if written in different ways.. but as it was, it just didnt sit well with me... BUT.. the butterfly effect is in play here.

 

Yes, the change in relationship can have impacts but just because a change is made that doesn't mean that the worst possible outcome will happen because of that change.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

The rebels will need an army and the only way they are getting an army (recruits and respectability) is with a great captain.

 

There may be other ways to get recruits.  Rand and Mat are not considered "great captains" and they successfully recruited soldiers and followers.  Logain was able to recruit soldiers to his cause without being a "great captain".  

 

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

 

They were able to get Gareth because of his obsession with Siuan. 

 

Yes, in the books.  In the show it could easily go like this:  

 

Siuan.  "Gareth, will you recruit and army?"

Gareth "Yes, that seems like a fine idea.  I will"

 

We can of course argue whether the books did it better or not.

 

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

Thom is supposed to risk everything to go and save Moiraine.

 

Given that they have already focused on Thom and Mat's relationship by the time they get to that point his loyalty to Mat could be sufficient cause to get him to go.   Others that went with Mat did not have a relationship to Moiraine in order to get them to go.

 

8 minutes ago, flinn said:

Very lazy writing.

 

Not really.  There are events in stories that can happen only one way and then there are events that can happen multiple different ways.   We can, of course, argue about which way is better but that does not mean that all other possible ways are lazy. 

 

 

[Ralph]

20 minutes ago, flinn said:

Like Moiraine not able to come up with a plausible story for where she went. Very lazy writing.

 

Maybe. Seems unlikely to me

 

Do you not think Siuan expected M to have an answer? And that this was what she was asking her about quite aggressively when they met up? 

 

I suspect M foresaw she would need to arrange an exile, and chose not to answer. 

 

But there could be other answers as well. 

 

Not sure why you have to assume the worst

[Therese Sedai]

20 hours ago, Els said:

 Would love for them to reunite several seasons down the road but I fear their paths will diverge from each other and stay true to the books with Them and Gareth. For some reason I can't picture S/M getting their happy ending in this and it makes me sad. 

I’ve been thinking about this and the possibility of them not really crossing paths again. It’s been almost a decade since I read the last book but the lack of a reunion between S/M is still a sore spot for me. 
 

It would be a great slow burn to have them meet again in a later season, after Siuan’s downfall so to speak. There’s a lot of emotional material to explore there. 
 

My only concern about Siuan’s canon ending being used in the show is that it has all the makings of the “bury your gays” trope. The LGBT community (and lesbians in particular) are sensitive to queer characters being killed off as there’s been a long history of this trope in mainstream media. So I hope if she has to go then it’s at least done with sensitivity regarding this particular phenomenon. 

[ForsakenPotato]

I feel like there's enough characters in WoT that we can have both romantic relationships and intense platonic friendships.

 

If the implication from the show is that Moiraine and Siuan are in a long term committed monogamous romantic relationship, I don't see any reason why they couldn't form close friendships with Gareth and Thom and otherwise pretty much follow the same plot. Siuan being Gareth's maid because of her oath and then slowly forming a mutual respect and friendship with him would make that whole section of the books a lot less weird (although given the amount of time the show has I won't be surprised if that whole section is cut or reorganized). Similarly Thom and Moiraine could have a great friendship because once they overcome mutual distrust they have a lot in common.

 

They could also go the route of Siuan and/or Moiraine falling for someone else when they think the other is dead, but I think viewers would still want them eventually reunited because they've been given the first really romantic scene (sorry Rand and Egwene, pocket strawberry really does not compare). I also think after the first season we're gonna focus on other characters, I don't think side relationships for Siuan and Moiraine are going to be what they choose to spend time on.

[Katherine]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Would it be on topic if the intimation is that Moiraine is bisexual?  I would want to know about my partners' extra-curriculars.

 

The show did not set up men and women bathing together as a normal, cultural activity.  Were I a non-book reader,  I would absolutely assume that Moiraine and Lan were sharing a bed after that scene.  They were very comfortable with their nakedness.

 

Yeah I would have to have a conversation with my partner if they were platonically bathing with dirty, sweaty people who rode horses all day. GROSS?

[Yojimbo]

22 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

You know, I'm going to love watching this board when they discover that Egwene / Elayne will be the way they both eliminate Gawyn from the show, and reduce Rand's harem to a less lecherous level.

So, are you expecting that Rand will be with Egs and Elayne?   And that Min and Avienha will not be romantically involved with Rand at all?   

[Jaysen Gore]

13 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

So, are you expecting that Rand will be with Egs and Elayne?   And that Min and Avienha will not be romantically involved with Rand at all?   

No, I'm expecting Rand to be involved with Min and Aviendha, and Elayne and Egwene to have a relationship as pillow friends, alowing them to write Gawyn out of the story ?

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

No, I'm expecting Rand to be involved with Min and Aviendha, and Elayne and Egwene to have a relationship as pillow friends, alowing them to write Gawyn out of the story ?

Oh. Now THAT would be a bold move.   Heads would indeed explode.