Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

with insufficient answers. they had time to develop the male characters. they CHOSE NOT TO.

Who was the second most developed male Character after Lan? Stepin. a side character. who died in episode 5. who wasn't even in the books.

the fact that you can literally SIT HERE and tell us they did the male characters fair makes me laugh.

 

the women in the series had plenty of time to shine. there was no reason to do the men dirty like they did.

 

Answers are answers, insufficient or otherwise. It is no one's obligation to convince you of why show choices were made. Also, these are opinions anyway.

 

I found all characters (minus Perrin) to be adequately developed for the first season of this show. I'm positive all characters will continue to develop in future seasons. This is a work in progress.

Edited January 8, 2022 by VooDooNut
typo

[EmreY]

2 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

with insufficient answers. they had time to develop the male characters. they CHOSE NOT TO.

Who was the second most developed male Character after Lan? Stepin. a side character. who died in episode 5. who wasn't even in the books. The fact that they could literally invest two episodes into him and kill him off literally shows that they had time to sink into the 3 boys. and they chose not to. Even Naeblis points out how one sided the character development is.

the fact that you can literally SIT HERE and tell us they did the male characters fair makes me laugh.

 

the women in the series had plenty of time to shine. there was no reason to do the men dirty like they did.

 

 

I don't care, and this you've-got-to-give-me-an-answer-I-consider-appropriate approach is probably not going to work.

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

Answers are answers, insufficient or otherwise. It is no one's obligation to convince you of why show choices were made. Also, these are opinions anyway.

 

well the argument was that all the big changes were done "#BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip" and yet you have been given a list of changes that weren't impacted by covid.

 

so the argument that this is the reason all the big changes were done because reasons above is complete crap.

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I found all characters (minus Perrin) to be adequately developed for the first season of this show.

really? what did we get for development from Rand by the end that didn't read like a ham fisted teenage drama?

because literally stepin got more development then any of the boys.

[TheSmurf]

5 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Answers are answers, insufficient or otherwise.

For some reason I'm reading that as something Geralt would say ?

[VooDooNut]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

well the argument was that all the big changes were done "#BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip" and yet you have been given a list of changes that weren't impacted by covid.

 

so the argument that this is the reason all the big changes were done because reasons above is complete crap.

really? what did we get for development from Rand by the end that didn't read like a ham fisted teenage drama?

because literally stepin got more development then any of the boys.

 

I can't give you what you seek. Hopefully future seasons will help you find peace.

Edited January 8, 2022 by VooDooNut
added quote for clarity

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I can't give you what you seek. Hopefully future seasons will help you find peace.

Season 1 sets the tone for the show, So I don't see this happening.

[ashi]

23 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

well the argument was that all the big changes were done "#BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip" and yet you have been given a list of changes that weren't impacted by covid.

 

so the argument that this is the reason all the big changes were done because reasons above is complete crap.

I understand that you are disappointed, and I am too, but this does sound a bit like arguing against a strawman, don't you think? Most, if not all, of the posters here, even the most positive ones, acknowledge that there are problems with the writing in the show that aren't directly attributable to covid/8hours/barney, even if some posters think that some problems are. But accusing every poster who isn't explicitly supercritical of the show of somehow sweeping everything negative under the carpet (even if I agree that some posts might downplay aspects that I might find problematic) isn't particularly helpful if you want to have a reasonable debate.

 

23 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

because literally stepin got more development then any of the boys.

Do you think this is literally true? I don't, while I agree that the show spent too much time on Stepin, and failed to develop especially Perrin and Rand sufficiently. Still, hyperbole doesn't usually do much except increase polarization and establish trenches.

 

For what it's worth, I think the show mishandled Moiraine's character more than Rand's.

Edited January 8, 2022 by ashi

[WoTwasThat]

39 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Whether you approve of my standards is inconsequential.  And which questions I answer are my business. 

 

But I will, to the ending of your long-ignored post: I don't think anyone here is trying to get you to watch the show.

 

Yikes. I didn’t say you had to answer. Just ignore the question if it bothers you. 

[Cauthonfan4]

36 minutes ago, ashi said:

Do you think this is literally true? I don't, while I agree that the show spent too much time on Stepin, and failed to develop especially Perrin and Rand sufficiently. Still, hyperbole doesn't usually do much except increase polarization and establish trenches.

Yes i believe it is true. even @Lethira the second said in another thread that a friend of hers said "rand was the dude wandering around the bow" and Perrin was "The bloke who fridge his wife". meanwhile we got real meaningful time with stepin, especially in episode 5.

we literally couldn't even be bothered to give them a training regime with Lan to show them actually learning to use their weapons.

 

36 minutes ago, ashi said:

For what it's worth, I think the show mishandled Moiraine's character more than Rand's.

they definitely did, but at least she got time to develop and do things. Amd the handling of her was botched on purpose to keep Pike around.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Weird_Old_Lady]

5 hours ago, Guire said:

So men or women as partners are less important than a generic sisterhood of women.  I have never thought any man in life was more important than my wife of 28 years.  I may not understand her at times but she even above my children is the center of my adult life.  I have cried many times during random moments in TV or movies.  I know that what I have experienced is touching some emotional thread in my brain that I can't fully understand or logically access.  I don't deny that power but also don't think it is indicative of some universal truth.

Maybe not universal, but keep in mind that not everyone has good, long, stable relationships. In fact, a fair amount do not. I think the feeling might be common enough that many if not most women would understand what I mean, even if they have a really good realtionship or marriage with a man. 

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

 

Depending on what you consider "Big Changes" we won't know exactly without seeing first/mid draft scripts.  But here are some that we can argue about.

 

#BecauseCovid

They lost the ability to shoot in certain locations, these include pickup shots for Fal'Dara and the entirety of the Blight(had to build their own sets).  They were unable to use the original stunt team of Trollocs for episode 8 and couldn't use practical Trollocs because of it.

 

#BarneyJumpedShip

We know they didn't plan for him to stay behind in episode 6 so we can only assume events of episode 7 and 8 had to be shuffled around to accommodate that.  Most widely assumed is that Mat would have confronted Fain and possibly have been the one Stabbed.  People have then assumed that Perrins part of the story would have been to help Lan track Moiraine through the blight but this is highly speculative with nothing directly supporting it.

 

#OnlyHad8Hours

There is a lot that can be included here but some big ones would be;

Moving Camelyn and the Trakands to season 2, cutting the Greenman and the 2 forsaken at the eye, Condensing all of the Road Darkfriends into 1 character etc, Having a very rushed first episode in general. 

 

There are certainly aspects to each of these arguments that are for or against them but this was all I could think of in this moment.

Right, and I agree that those are probably valid explanations for those changes. And I really didn’t have a problem with any of them, except leaving Mat behind, which was just unavoidable. 
 

By The Big Changes, I’m referring to (on page 53)….

1. The DR can be male or female, severely undercutting the central premise of the series that the DR is going to be reincarnated into a world and magic system stacked against him.
2. Related to point one, the dichotomy between Saidar and Saidin and taint upon Saidin is never explained, barely alluded to, and - at best - the show plays fast and loose with all the rules appurtenant to this distinction. This (and the DR having to channel the tainted Saidin - see point 1) is what makes WOTunique, and uniquely awesome.
3. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve saves the day again, and again, and again with her stupendous and completely untrained channeling ability, at the expense of other characters. She even knows how to track Mo better than her own warder (my god). 
4. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve banging Lan in Season 1, unmarried.
5. The Dumbest Plan in History for Mo to ditch her warder and take a complete noob DR to face the DO. My god, my head still hurts thinking about how asinine this plot was.
6. The entire Eye / Tarwin Gap sequence was totally different from the books, way worse, and robs Rand of his coming out moment. Instead, Rand is revealed through a montage of Machin Shin and Rand playing detective with Min (oh my head!).
7. That LTT scene.... gah this is just killing me how terrible it's like it is deliberate.

I don’t think #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip explain any of these. And I think these are the sort of changes that really pissed off a lot of WOT fans - not just me.

 

So I think those excuses ought to be retired because they’re really beside the point. I think the correct explanation for The Big Changes was that Rafe/Amazon felt the need to adapt WOT “to appeal to a broader / modern / (and let’s be honest) more female audience.”

 

Now I strongly disagree with that. But that’s at least a cognizable justification. Covid, Barney, and runtime are not.

Edited January 8, 2022 by WoTwasThat

[Weird_Old_Lady]

56 minutes ago, TheSmurf said:

For some reason I'm reading that as something Geralt would say ?

I thought of "I said you could ask, not that I'd answer." With that little smile and spark in her eye as she walks away. 

[Ralph]

11 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

Right, and I agree that those are probably valid explanations for those changes. And I really didn’t have a problem with any of them, except leaving Mat behind, which was just unavoidable. 
 

By The Big Changes, I’m referring to (on page 53)….

 

1. The DR can be male or female, severely undercutting the central premise of the series that the DR is going to be reincarnated into a world and magic system stacked against him.
2. Related to point one, the dichotomy between Saidar and Saidin and taint upon Saidin is never explained, barely alluded to, and - at best - the show plays fast and loose with all the rules appurtenant to this distinction. This (and the DR having to channel the tainted Saidin - see point 1) is what makes WOTunique, and uniquely awesome.
3. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve saves the day again, and again, and again with her stupendous and completely untrained channeling ability, at the expense of other characters. She even knows how to track Mo better than her own warder (my god). 
4. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve banging Lan in Season 1, unmarried.
5. The Dumbest Plan in History for Mo to ditch her warder and take a complete noob DR to face the DO. My god, my head still hurts thinking about how asinine this plot was.
6. The entire Eye / Tarwin Gap sequence was totally different from the books, way worse, and robs Rand of his coming out moment. Instead, Rand is revealed through a montage of Machin Shin and Rand playing detective with Min (oh my head!).
7. That LTT scene.... gah this is just killing me how terrible it's like it is deliberate.

I don’t think #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip explain any of these. And I think these are the sort of changes that really pissed off a lot of WOT fans - not just me.

 

So I think those excuses ought to be retired because they’re really beside the point. I think the correct explanation for The Big Changes was that Rafe/Amazon felt the need to adapt WOT “to appeal to a broader / modern audience.”

 

Now I strongly disagree with that. But that’s at least a cognizable justification. Covid, Barney, and runtime are not.

But nobody ever said they were the reasons for these changes. They were suggested for things like the poor Tarwin's Gap scenes, etc.

 

And the reasons for these changes have already been discussed on the fora, and some have suggested it is what you say. 

 

Not sure what you have added. 

[WoTwasThat]

22 minutes ago, Ralph said:

But nobody ever said they were the reasons for these changes. They were suggested for things like the poor Tarwin's Gap scenes, etc.

 

And the reasons for these changes have already been discussed on the fora, and some have suggested it is what you say. 

 

Not sure what you have added. 

Well, those seem to be the most common excuses given, but they really don’t address the most significant problems with the show. So that’s why I asked. 

[pavao13]

Has Rafe ever talked about Steppin in any interviews? I’d love to hear his thoughts on why so much time was dedicated to such a minor character. 

[KakitaOCU]

12 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Rand successfully channels after receiving this advice. If he actually did the opposite, the show should have conveyed it. But why would he?

Yeah, who gave him that advice?  and no, they wouldn't show, because we're not info dumping on the power yet.
 

 

12 hours ago, ilovezam said:

He asks Moiraine for help instead of being a misogynistic (badword). Turning a good man bad is unimportant for you? I don't see why you could support changes like this. This is bad writing for cheap drama.

You mean where he is initially dismissive then acknowledges he's out of line and apologizes, that's not misogynistic (badword) that's justifiable bias that he immediately fights.

 

12 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

if the DR is a woman why would the people still fear them?

if the DR is a woman there is zero threat of the world breaking.

if the DR is a woman there is no reason for the DR to unify the world, as it would basically already be done.

You're joking, right?

If the DR is a woman they're still going to break the world according to prophecy.  If you believe the prophecy then no, there's not zero threat.

And no reason to unify?  Really, so knowing what's coming in Tarmon Gaidin, each of those countries being piecemeal and looking out for themselves would have been able to handle Demandred?  

You're literally ignoring reality, human nature and the entire rest of the prophecy all to make your point.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

On 1/7/2022 at 1:22 PM, EmreY said:

TEOTW tries to do this too, except it's whittled down to three people, not two.  It honestly doesn't make much of a difference that this is expanded to two other people. 

I would like to push back on this a little bit. 

 

Rand gets 44 of the 60ish POV's from EotW. The book is almost entirely dedicated to establishing him as a character so that when we find out that he's the Dragon Reborn, we care and hurt for him. Factor in that 800 pages of prose is comes out to like 35 hrs of reading time, 80% of which is given to Rand. That's like 28 hours of the reader experience that EotW dedicates to Rand. 

 

Consider the show. 8 hrs. That's it. And what do they do? They decide to spend 30% that time developing Moiraine, and then they split the rest between 5 characters who they all gave the same job. 

 

In GoT, Jon is learning to be a soldier at the Wall. Ed is navegating politics. Every character is doing something different. In WoT, everyone is just a Potential Dragon. This makes all the viewpoints kind of bleed into one another because all the characters are dealing with the exact same things. In this way, I think it was especially wise for RJ to focus almost entirely on a single viewpoint in EotW. 

 

The show should have treated Rand as Frodo, Perrin and Mat as Sam, and Egwene and Nynaeve as Merry and Pippin (with regards to development). All those LotR characters I mentioned are well loved and enjoyable to watch in Fellowship, even if they don't really have anything to do. Then, later, they get more development once the narrative opens up. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

To my above point, it's even more ironic that Rafe and co. chose to flesh out Egwene, Nynaeve, and Mat's roles in EotW at all considering the events of Episode 8. Obviously, the complaint they were addressing is that those characters don't really have much to do in EotW, which is true. However, as Sanderson noted on DW, none of those characters end up doing anything of importance in Season 1 anyway. 

 

So all Rafe did was syphon time away from Rand and give it to 4 other characters who all turned out to be total dead weight on the narrative. 

 

At least RJ had 1 consequential character in EotW. WoTtv doesn't have any. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

1 hour ago, pavao13 said:

Has Rafe ever talked about Steppin in any interviews? I’d love to hear his thoughts on why so much time was dedicated to such a minor character. 

I've mentioned this before, but I'll do it again here since I never see it brought up. 

 

Originally, speculation was that the Stepin storyline was part of a Xanatos Gambit by Rafe in which 1.5 episodes would be dedicated to a minor character in order to set up the gravity of the Warder/Aes Sedai bond in preparation for that bond being severed when Moiraine "dies." 

 

Then Episode 8 happened. Moiraine has been stilled. In order to keep Rosamund Pike relevant, a new story has been created out of whole cloth for her and Lan in Season 2 during which Lan is likely to be struggling with the effects of a severed bond. 

 

So, if I'm right, then it seems that the Stepin stuff wasn't meant to set up a distant payoff, but to facilitate a totally show-original plotline for the purpose of retaining a prominent actress to keep the show marketable. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by JeffTheWoodlandElf

[Jaysen Gore]

38 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

I've mentioned this before, but I'll do it again here since I never see it brought up. 

 

Originally, speculation was that the Stepin storyline was part of a Xanatos Gambit by Rafe in which 1.5 episodes would be dedicated to a minor character in order to set up the gravity of the Warder/Aes Sedai bond in preparation for that bond being severed when Moiraine "dies." 

 

Then Episode 8 happened. Moiraine has been stilled. In order to keep Rosamund Pike relevant, a new story has been created out of whole cloth for her and Lan in Season 2 during which Lan is likely to be struggling with the effects of a severed bond. 

 

So, if I'm right, then it seems that the Stepin stuff wasn't meant to set up a distant payoff, but to facilitate a totally show-original plotline for the purpose of retaining a prominent actress to keep the show marketable. 

Except if Moiraine is shielded, and not stilled, the Stepin speculation and foreshadowing is still valid, and Moiraine spends a season unable to channel before having Rand or Siuan untie the knot and remove the shield. 

 

Her ignorance at the Eye also lets her learn about the DR via the prophecies, now that she has the actual reality of Rand's birth and raising to act as a starting point. Knowing that Rand is the DR becomes the Rosetta stone for her to filter the prophecies for the truth, and we all learn them together.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Jaysen Gore

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

27 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Except if Moiraine is shielded, and not stilled, the Stepin speculation and foreshadowing is still valid, and Moiraine spends a season unable to channel before having Rand or Siuan untie the knot and remove the shield. 

 

Kind of begs the question of why Ishamael didn't just still her though, doesn't it? He obviously could have. This whole situation just seems like a massive contrivance. 

[ashi]

52 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Kind of begs the question of why Ishamael didn't just still her though, doesn't it? He obviously could have. This whole situation just seems like a massive contrivance. 

Or why not even kill her? We even have the subtle (salty sarcasm - the writers are surely not poetic wordsmiths) foreshadowing by Moiraine herself: "Whoever comes between the Dragon and the Dark One will die."

Rant: I wish the writers had used the words of the prophecies more:

Quote

Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us,
yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,
and his blood shall give us the Light.
Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.
Weep for your salvation.

Instead, we get:

Quote

"The Dragon will either defeat the Dark One or join him."

 

"They say the last Dragon broke the world, but the next one will save it."

 

"They forget the Dragon is just as likely to save the world as break it."

It comes across as oh so clunky. Whatever the writers may be, they are not accomplished prose stylists.

Edited January 9, 2022 by ashi

[Jaysen Gore]

3 minutes ago, ashi said:

Or why not even kill her? We even have the subtle (salty sarcasm - the writers are surely not poetic wordsmiths) foreshadowing by Moiraine herself: "Whoever comes between the Dragon and the Dark One will die."

Only the Great Lord can make use of the dead...In the books, the Forsaken do not generally kill indiscriminately; they want servants and followers - willing or not - not corpses.

 

Moiraine did not come between the Dragon and the Dark One, hence, no issue.

 

42 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Kind of begs the question of why Ishamael didn't just still her though, doesn't it? He obviously could have. This whole situation just seems like a massive contrivance. 

 

Ishamael is in the process of trying to seduce Rand. Breaking one of his women - and LTT was always soft-hearted - would definitely reinforce him up as an enemy. If Rand does turn, and wants his toy back, he can turn her, unshield her, and give her back.

[ashi]

58 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Only the Great Lord can make use of the dead...In the books, the Forsaken do not generally kill indiscriminately; they want servants and followers - willing or not - not corpses.

Well, they certainly have no qualms doing it either, if the potential corpses are annoying to them. I am sure Ishamael would have killed her if he thought it would increase the chances of Rand turning, and spared her if he thought it would decrease them. Graendal or Rahvin would probably have used compulsion on her, while Be'lal and Sammael would probably have swatted her dead - as Aginor probably would have done, if he didn't have to compete with Rand for the Eye.

 

Quote

Ishamael is in the process of trying to seduce Rand. Breaking one of his women - and LTT was always soft-hearted - would definitely reinforce him up as an enemy.

 

Good point!

Edited January 9, 2022 by ashi

[ashi]

44 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Moiraine did not come between the Dragon and the Dark One, hence, no issue.

I mostly take issue with the line, the wording of which makes me cringe, and the repeated use of which makes me feel certain it was just a superficial and unearned plot device to make the rest of the party stay in Fal Dara (though Rand wanting to go to the Eye alone with Moiraine to avoid putting his friends in danger is definitely good characterization).

Edited January 9, 2022 by ashi