Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[notpropaganda73]

Let's have a look at first and second drafts of all the things we love and see how many holes we can pick in them *shrug*

 

I'd have preferred that Gitara open to the one we got, even if she went on to say to kill the Dragon 

[ilovezam]

10 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Let's have a look at first and second drafts of all the things we love and see how many holes we can pick in them *shrug*

 

I'd have preferred that Gitara open to the one we got, even if she went on to say to kill the Dragon 

We don't know which stage this draft was in. I'd agree that it's probably not fair to judge too harshly, especially with regards to things like polish and final details, but it is also very telling on the general direction Rafe wanted to take the show from Day 1.

 

People attributed things like Tam losing to one Trolloc and the love triangle to Barney leaving and/or COVID, but we can see from this 2018 draft that they were always going to go for it.

 

There's also the one thing Rafe thought he had to leave an extra note for, and it is this:

Quote

[NOTE: All sex scenes in 101 will be focused on the pleasure of the women. Likewise, the female body should be seen as strong and in control in these scenes.]

 

I actually agree that the Gitara open was better than the one we got, but that bar is incredibly low.

 

[notpropaganda73]

Yes, I cringed at that note as well initially, but in all honesty, considering the sort of sex scenes we have seen from fantasy in the very recent past, maybe it's a note he felt the studio had to see in order to understand that WoT is not GOT? And something that needs to be emphasised because unfortunately, many of these shows do not emphasise or show women's pleasure at all? I had an initial eye roll reaction but I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things.

 

The Tam vs Trolloc thing I've gone over before but I honestly think they wanted to show how good he was with the sword in that scene, but they failed. I don't understand how you can read that draft and decide that the Tam scene was an indictment and "tearing men down" (to quote a regular criticism). All the descriptions of the scene are trying to emphasise how good he is with the sword and how surprised Rand is about that. That's straight from the books. The problem with the scene is that it fails to do what they wanted to show, but there's no anti-men conspiracy there (which is what is constantly brought up relating to that scene). 

 

The love triangle stuff I will give you, it's super disappointing to see it in there but to be honest if they had shown more of it in episode 1, maybe it wouldn't have been so jarring and ridiculous in episode 7. I still hate it mind you. 

[fra85uk]

30 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Let's have a look at first and second drafts of all the things we love and see how many holes we can pick in them *shrug*

 

I'd have preferred that Gitara open to the one we got, even if she went on to say to kill the Dragon 

She actually said in the script "kill it" LOL

[notpropaganda73]

9 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

She actually said in the script "kill it" LOL

gotta keep that mystery going ? 

[fra85uk]

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

gotta keep that mystery going ? 

Or maybe she is using more modern-day slang ?

I am surprised it was not "kill her or him".

Edited January 5, 2022 by fra85uk

[ilovezam]

30 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

The Tam vs Trolloc thing I've gone over before but I honestly think they wanted to show how good he was with the sword in that scene, but they failed. I don't understand how you can read that draft and decide that the Tam scene was an indictment and "tearing men down" (to quote a regular criticism).

I think I'd rather assume ignorance than malice, and I'd agree generally that there's no "anti-men conspiracy" going on there.

 

Having said that, I think given Rafe's behaviour - he had taken every opportunity to tweet about how much of a feminist he was and how he's going to transform Jordan's work to something more feminist, I think it's much more likely that he might have overdone it, and I think the heavy-handedness can really be seen in that note he left in his script.

 

Every female/feminist YouTuber I've watched agree that LTT's character shouldn't have been assassinated thus and that Rand needed his moment. I think at this point it's clear to see that feminism isn't an issue, but Rafe's general lack of writing ability and subtlety.

[Gothic Flame]

39 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

We don't know which stage this draft was in. I'd agree that it's probably not fair to judge too harshly, especially with regards to things like polish and final details, but it is also very telling on the general direction Rafe wanted to take the show from Day 1.

Oh hell yes I am judging harshly.. This was the direction he wanted. The question I'd want answered is who stopped him from this idiocy.

The cognitive dissonance is real;

[notpropaganda73]

5 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I think I'd rather assume ignorance than malice, and I'd agree generally that there's no "anti-men conspiracy" going on there.

 

Having said that, I think given Rafe's behaviour - he had taken every opportunity to tweet about how much of a feminist he was and how he's going to transform Jordan's work to something more feminist, I think it's much more likely that he might have overdone it, and I think the heavy-handedness can really be seen in that note he left in his script.

 

Every female/feminist YouTuber I've watched agree that LTT's character shouldn't have been assassinated thus and that Rand needed his moment. I think at this point it's clear to see that feminism isn't an issue, but Rafe's general lack of writing ability and subtlety.

 

I think that's all very fair. Heavy-handed is a really great way to describe it. It feels as though every scene and situation, this point needs to be hammered home about women in this world. Rather than allowing the characters room to breathe and express things that would show it anyway. There's definitely a tunnel vision thing going on in S1 with this I think

 

But I'm still optimistic about the future of the show, in spite of all those fair criticisms

[ilovezam]

14 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Oh hell yes I am judging harshly.. This was the direction he wanted. The question I'd want answered is who stopped him from this idiocy.

The cognitive dissonance is real;

Yikes... I have never seen that quote and it made me feel so much worse ?

[Wassup]

Soo many pages to read!  I do not know if this was covered in this thread, and may have been in the interview/article thread, but here are some Rafe interview responses that have me thinking why we have some issues with season 1.

 

From Nerdist.com (link -Nerdist.com season 1 finale interview)

 

As Rand and Moiraine visit the Eye, the Battle of Tarwin’s Gap unfolds. It’s the biggest battle of the season but also very intimate. What was it like to find a grounded approach to the battle?

 

We were lucky because our director, Ciaran Donnelly is unbelievable. He had come from years on Vikings and really knew how to bring this to life for us in such a visceral way. And to never lose our characters in it. You never lose track of, even Agelmar. I think you’re emotionally connected to him at the wall. Amalisa, you are emotionally connected to her with what she’s doing with the women defending the city. So he did a great job of making sure that that emotional connection was there the whole way through this really gigantic battle.

 

The part of the response in red is why I have some concern moving forward.  It seems he believes they established some emotional connection with these characters for the audience.  I am not so sure they did.  Any emotional thoughts for Amalisa were probably not, "Aw, she is sacrificing herself to save the city that has never fallen." but more like, "Stupid woman, stop killing Nyn and Eg!".

 

From TheWrap.com (link -TheWrap.com - season finale postmortem interview)

 

On the battle between dark and light

Peddler Padan delivered a few huge lines in the final sequences, including revealing he’s on the dark side because there needs to be balance. So does that – to use a common superhero trope – make this seeming villain the hero of his own story?

 

“You don’t get to spend a lot of time with the dark friends in the books outside of the forsaken. And so, we really wanted to make sure that each dark friend that we meet in the show like Dana, who you met in Episode 3, and Padan Fain … that you kind of understand them as people and that their goal is not, you know, the evil. They’re not just evil people who are born evil who want evil,” Judkins explained. “They have complex human emotions and feelings and they probably view what they’re doing as being positive either for themselves or for the world or for their loved ones, or for whatever reason they view what they’re doing as important and we wanted to give that to Padan Fain. And that sets up a lot of what we’ll see in Season 2 with each of our core characters also struggling with the balance of dark and light within themselves.”

 

 

The part in red for this quote is a concern for me.  Darkfriends in the books are generally not nice people who think they are doing what is right.  They are generally selfish people who are hoping to earn something great when the Great Lord takes over the world.  Most of them do despicable things to prove their worth.  I believe it was Moiraine who said this about the peddler - "I do not believe I have ever met someone so abject and debased, yet at the same time so foul. I feel soiled from touching him, and I do not mean for the filth on his skin. Soiled in here." She touched her breast. "The degradation of his soul almost makes me doubt he has one. There is something worse to him than a Darkfriend."  Seems pretty evil to me.

 

There are a couple I need to find that have me curious about season 2, though.  I will post those when I find them again, since this is all about balance.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Wassup
tried to fix formatting at the end of the post.

[Wassup]

OK, for a couple things that make me curious about season 2.

 

From Nerdist.com (link - Nerdist.com season 1 finale interview)

 

The end of the book The Eye of the World is famously confusing and messy. Can you talk about bringing that to the screen and making the change for only Rand and Moiraine to go to the Eye?

 

 One of the first things I did when I started was talk to Harriet, Robert Jordan’s widow, and Brandon [Sanderson] about: what are the things Robert Jordan would’ve changed about the books with “hindsight’s 20/20?” They both talked about the introduction of Mat and Perrin, and how to have those characters be crystallized earlier in the show than they were in the books.

And then another thing they talked about was the end of the first book. I felt when I read it too, [that it] didn’t necessarily deliver exactly what he was hoping for. There were a couple things in it that he specifically said he was unhappy with. I worked with Brandon to find a way—hopefully you won’t understand it until season two—but hopefully one thing from the books that Robert Jordan hated, we have given an idea too, in the show. I can’t say more than that, but that would make it actually make sense.

But I wanted to take it, and take the core of what happens in there. And instead of letting Rand sort of do everything, which he does in the books—he fights Ba’alzamon, he then teleports to Tarwin’s Gap and levels an army of Trollocs, and then he gets the Horn of Valere. A lot happens for Rand there in the finale, but we wanted to try to take it and piece it out for our ensemble.

Give Perrin the Horn of Valere. The girls can be at Tarwin’s Gap, and also set their stories on a path for where they’re going in season two. Because season two is so much about these individual characters and the journey each of them is on alone. We needed more in the finale to be able to do that. That was the biggest swing, I think, we took with the adaptation, was to really take that story and be like: what pieces of what exists in the book will make the most sense for each of these characters so that we can tell the story that’s there. But we’re telling it through our whole cast instead of just through Rand.

 

The part in his answer that is red has me curious about what is to come in the next season.  What will be the aha moment that makes us understand at least one change/confusing thing from the finale?

 

The part in blue has me expecting some good attempt at character building and maybe seeing how the decisions for some of these characters actually develops to see if we can accept them more?

 

From CBR.com (link - CBR.com Rafe interview)

 

There was one other entirely new culture introduced at the very end: Oh my God, it's the Seanchan! What's the biggest challenge in depicting that culture?

 

(later in his response) ... And then you'll see hints of all the things that are talked about in the books for them as well. There are really insect-like designs built into every piece of their armor, which was important in the books. So you see the pieces that are there in the books, but that visual read has to be like these people feel like they're foreigners.

 

This reply has me wondering what the full look of the Seanchan will be like.  I am definitely curious about this because I never really had a good headcanon for their look.

 

 

[ArrylT]

On 1/5/2022 at 6:05 AM, ilovezam said:

Not sure if this was posted here already, but Rafe's original Ep 1 script was released, and everyone hates it. It's weird, to say the least, and it involves an explicit scene of Rand fingering Egwene, and Gitara asking Moiraine to kill the Dragon Reborn.

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/rvq3gw/show_someone_posted_the_original_script_for_the/

 

Yes I posted a link to the script directly on the News & Interviews thread for anyone wishing to avoid reddit.

[RextheDog]

On 1/5/2022 at 11:59 PM, Gothic Flame said:

Oh hell yes I am judging harshly.. This was the direction he wanted. The question I'd want answered is who stopped him from this idiocy.

The cognitive dissonance is real;

 

 

wow.....this guy.....

 

im trying to enjoy the show as presented to me, im trying to downplay some of the more mundane criticisms, but to say the above.....

 

i mean, your the one who decided it was a good idea to focus on a side part player to emphasise the power of the bond, yet havent explained it properly to be honest and then ignored it by episode 8.....('im masked, ah well, hope shes OK, id be terribly sad if something was to happen to her.......pass us another biscuit can you Nyn love')

 

bit of a knob

Edited January 6, 2022 by RextheDog
clarity

[RextheDog]

On 1/6/2022 at 2:25 AM, Wassup said:

Soo many pages to read!  I do not know if this was covered in this thread, and may have been in the interview/article thread, but here are some Rafe interview responses that have me thinking why we have some issues with season 1.

 

From Nerdist.com (link -Nerdist.com season 1 finale interview)

 

As Rand and Moiraine visit the Eye, the Battle of Tarwin’s Gap unfolds. It’s the biggest battle of the season but also very intimate. What was it like to find a grounded approach to the battle?

 

We were lucky because our director, Ciaran Donnelly is unbelievable. He had come from years on Vikings and really knew how to bring this to life for us in such a visceral way. And to never lose our characters in it. You never lose track of, even Agelmar. I think you’re emotionally connected to him at the wall. Amalisa, you are emotionally connected to her with what she’s doing with the women defending the city. So he did a great job of making sure that that emotional connection was there the whole way through this really gigantic battle.

 

The part of the response in red is why I have some concern moving forward.  It seems he believes they established some emotional connection with these characters for the audience.  I am not so sure they did.  Any emotional thoughts for Amalisa were probably not, "Aw, she is sacrificing herself to save the city that has never fallen." but more like, "Stupid woman, stop killing Nyn and Eg!".

 

From TheWrap.com (link -TheWrap.com - season finale postmortem interview)

 

On the battle between dark and light

Peddler Padan delivered a few huge lines in the final sequences, including revealing he’s on the dark side because there needs to be balance. So does that – to use a common superhero trope – make this seeming villain the hero of his own story?

 

“You don’t get to spend a lot of time with the dark friends in the books outside of the forsaken. And so, we really wanted to make sure that each dark friend that we meet in the show like Dana, who you met in Episode 3, and Padan Fain … that you kind of understand them as people and that their goal is not, you know, the evil. They’re not just evil people who are born evil who want evil,” Judkins explained. “They have complex human emotions and feelings and they probably view what they’re doing as being positive either for themselves or for the world or for their loved ones, or for whatever reason they view what they’re doing as important and we wanted to give that to Padan Fain. And that sets up a lot of what we’ll see in Season 2 with each of our core characters also struggling with the balance of dark and light within themselves.”

 

 

The part in red for this quote is a concern for me.  Darkfriends in the books are generally not nice people who think they are doing what is right.  They are generally selfish people who are hoping to earn something great when the Great Lord takes over the world.  Most of them do despicable things to prove their worth.  I believe it was Moiraine who said this about the peddler - "I do not believe I have ever met someone so abject and debased, yet at the same time so foul. I feel soiled from touching him, and I do not mean for the filth on his skin. Soiled in here." She touched her breast. "The degradation of his soul almost makes me doubt he has one. There is something worse to him than a Darkfriend."  Seems pretty evil to me.

 

There are a couple I need to find that have me curious about season 2, though.  I will post those when I find them again, since this is all about balance.

 

 

 

this is more worrying that anything that transpired (or didnt) in season 1......

 

in my mind.....the whole Idea of Fain is NOT that hes a tortured soul, but hes been tortured to the point of no return.....hes not even technically a servant of the great lord is he? or am i missing something.....

 

methinks old mate Rafa is confusing Gollum with Fain....easy to do if you ignore the fact they are in different books, with different motivations and are different species....i mean ThEy ArE bOtH cRoUcHeD oVeR 

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

this is more worrying that anything that transpired (or didnt) in season 1......

 

in my mind.....the whole Idea of Fain is NOT that hes a tortured soul, but hes been tortured to the point of no return.....hes not even technically a servant of the great lord is he? or am i missing something.....

 

methinks old mate Rafa is confusing Gollum with Fain....easy to do if you ignore the fact they are in different books, with different motivations and are different species....i mean ThEy ArE bOtH cRoUcHeD oVeR 

I understood him to be saying they changed PF to this, because they wanted the DFs to be more like this, as some of them are in the books. Not that this is PF from the books

[RextheDog]

On 1/6/2022 at 3:06 AM, Wassup said:

OK, for a couple things that make me curious about season 2.

 

From Nerdist.com (link - Nerdist.com season 1 finale interview)

 

The end of the book The Eye of the World is famously confusing and messy. Can you talk about bringing that to the screen and making the change for only Rand and Moiraine to go to the Eye?

 

 One of the first things I did when I started was talk to Harriet, Robert Jordan’s widow, and Brandon [Sanderson] about: what are the things Robert Jordan would’ve changed about the books with “hindsight’s 20/20?” They both talked about the introduction of Mat and Perrin, and how to have those characters be crystallized earlier in the show than they were in the books.

 

 

 

Interesting that its the first thing he wanted to talk about....'how can we change....'

 

how about 'as little as possible dude'

[RextheDog]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I understood him to be saying they changed PF to this, because they wanted the DFs to be more like this, as some of them are in the books. Not that this is PF from the books

 

ok, maybe....but (to Rafe, not you) why? why change the structure so fundamentally? 

 

youve been gifted this amazing world...use it.

 

for all the defending ive been doing of the show, the best parts are the bits that stay true to the core of the show, even if its not directly from the book (Logains tears on being stilled spring to mind)

[Ralph]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:55 PM, 7th age said:

what about the money shot from the trailer with E. and the colors?

 

That is in the concept art for Ep1, so it seems was cut. We may see a deleted scenes release at some point. I think Rafe has said so

[Skipp]

24 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

ok, maybe....but (to Rafe, not you) why? why change the structure so fundamentally? 

 

youve been gifted this amazing world...use it.

 

for all the defending ive been doing of the show, the best parts are the bits that stay true to the core of the show, even if its not directly from the book (Logains tears on being stilled spring to mind)

I believe the structure is being changed because Rafe has drawn up outlines for a 6 and 8 season version of the show.  The structure is being changed to fit these timelines.  While everyone on this forum can pick and choose what they would cut and what they would keep we would still need to fit were the story starts and where it ends into one of these 2 scenario's.

 

While I can't say I have seen RJ2's outline for the series I do believe it exists.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, RextheDog said:

 

this is more worrying that anything that transpired (or didnt) in season 1......

 

in my mind.....the whole Idea of Fain is NOT that hes a tortured soul, but hes been tortured to the point of no return.....hes not even technically a servant of the great lord is he? or am i missing something.....

 

methinks old mate Rafa is confusing Gollum with Fain....easy to do if you ignore the fact they are in different books, with different motivations and are different species....i mean ThEy ArE bOtH cRoUcHeD oVeR 

Fain began as a darkfriend, but he is tortured mentally to the same degree and for the same reason that Rand is physically by the overlapping wounds on his ribs.  Fain being distilled as the DO's hound made him both more and less human (step 1), and then his encounter with Mordeith, and the conflict that began drove him to madness (step 2), to the point that Machin Shin recognized in him a kindred soul.  Because he both loves the Great Lord of the Dark, and despises him to the depths of his soul, since the Victory of the Light is All.

 

Oh, and compare the specific scenes by which Fain is taken to Shayol Ghul and questioned by Sauron about his knowledge of the innocent who stole the One Ring from him. Then, after his release, he compulsively chases our hero through Moria as he tries to defeat Shai'tan.  He's definitely a Gollum analogue.

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Oh, and compare the specific scenes by which Fain is taken to Shayol Ghul and questioned by Sauron about his knowledge of the innocent who stole the One Ring from him. Then, after his release, he compulsively chases our hero through Moria as he tries to defeat Shai'tan.  He's definitely a Gollum analogue.

I think that Fain was "Gollum" and Mat was "Smeagol". Mat was saved in time though.

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, RextheDog said:

i mean, your the one who decided it was a good idea to focus on a side part player to emphasise the power of the bond, yet havent explained it properly to be honest and then ignored it by episode 8.....('im masked, ah well, hope shes OK, id be terribly sad if something was to happen to her.......pass us another biscuit can you Nyn love')

You do realize that quote doesn't automatically mean "I'm awesome and no one can do better."  It can very well also mean "I've been given this task, I couldn't forgive myself if I pass it by and someone else messes it up."

Also, please stop mischaracterizing what happened to make a fake point.  Lan was with Nynaeve.  Fast Forward to way late at night or early in the morning, Rand comes to Moraine.  They prep, she masks the bond and they leave.  Lan wakes up, can't feel her, runs to check, finds out she left, tells Nynaeve, sets out after her.

No ignoring the issue or writing off the issue occured.

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I've been given this task, I couldn't forgive myself if I pass it by and someone else messes it up."

This is exactly how I understand that quote.

[Spiritweaver1]

Well regardless of the pages of criticism and some praise  in this thread it will be interesting to see what the "A" team does with the LOTR series.  That will give us some idea if the issue is caused by the Amazon corporate culture or it rests all on the show team.   I did like The Expanse although I never read the books.  Otherwise I don't watch much on Prime.