Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

22 hours ago, ArrylT said:

From Reddit - here is the full Screen time, word count & talkative totals for S1

 

To which I would reply with this breakdown of the POV's from Eye of the World. 

 

Unique POV Breakdown
Character                     # of POVs    
Rand al'Thor                 44    
Perrin Aybara               8    
Nynaeve al'Meara        3    
Lews Therin Telamon 1    
Egwene al'Vere            1    
Moiraine Damodred    1    

 

Everyone is all "Wheel of Time is an ensemble cast! derka derka!" but the reality is that for the large part of the first half of WoT, Rand is unquestionably the MAIN character. He gets the most POVs and most of the biggest moments go to him. 

 

So yeah, if you put up a graph showing that Rand had the second most screen time and a comparative amount of focus to the other characters, it looks even, but it's not, because he's gone from being unquestionably the focus of the story to just some redheaded guy whose character is barely explored. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

On 12/24/2021 at 3:38 AM, Mailman said:

'disappointed darkfriends' out there who are acting like Rafe and his team killed their grandmother.

So what am I to make of this bloody knife I found next to my grandmother's body and the note which said, "From Rafe with love GAHAHAHAHA"? 

Edited January 3, 2022 by JeffTheWoodlandElf

[KakitaOCU]

36 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Actually, it's even worse than that. 

 

Everyone here on DM was theorizing that the Stepin stuff was put in to set up for Moiraine's "death" when she passes through the archway with Lanfear. 

 

Actually, it now seems that the Stepin stuff was there to setup for a totally pointless show-original plot involving stilled Moiraine and Lan in S2 which was invented by Rafe in order to justify keeping Rosamund Pike around for marketing purposes. 

Except she wasn't stilled, Rafe never actually said she was stilled, the visual effects are not consistent with stilling, Lan doesn't even recognize the bond as being broken and the story still has several significant issues coming with Warders dying.  
 

Spoiler

Alanna loses one, putting her in an unstable mental state that leads to Bonding Rand.  She will later be capture being held as a knife over Rand.

As you said, Moraine vs Lanfear.

Egwene Bonding Brigitte has stakes higher if you understand the bond.

Androl and Pevara.

Rand Min, Elayne, Aviendha.   

 

There's a bunch of stuff going on that matters without jumping to "They're inventing a horrible new story!"

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Okay, so hear me out: 

 

10 episode season 

8 million per episode rather than 10 (Literally the only reason this wouldn't have been an option is Amazon's suits. Same amount of money, but the data probably says that 8 episodes is more bingeable than 10). 

 

Tell episode 1 from Rand's perspective. Don't show the fight at Emond's Field, just show the aftermath like in the books. Save tons of money. Rely on building interesting characters to hook the audience rather than an action scene. 

 

Don't cast Rosamund Pike as Moiraine. Lose some instant marketing, but gain financial and creative flexibility (don't have to pay her. don't have to shoehorn her into season 2). 

 

Stop trying to make the show a mega-hit overnight. Start smaller and build an audience. Tell a straightforward adventure story with an interesting twist (women use magic or whatever). 

 

Maybe don't spend half your budget building an entire Emond's Field just to burn it down in episode 1 (this was hyped so much that I can only imagine it was a stunt for marketing purposes). 

 

Cut the scene with the Seanchan at the end of Episode 8 which I'm sure was also expensive and also pointless. Just show the sails on the horizon. 

 

Obviously, these are just areas where I feel money could have been saved on a per-episode basis. I don't actually know how any of the finances here shake out. But still, it's odd to me that the number which Amazon seemed unwilling to change was not the $80 million total budget for the season but the $10 million budget per episode. 

 

Why not go slightly cheaper and make 10 episodes if that's what Rafe really wanted? 

[Lethira the second]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except she wasn't stilled, Rafe never actually said she was stilled, the visual effects are not consistent with stilling, Lan doesn't even recognize the bond as being broken and the story still has several significant issues coming with Warders dying.  
 

  Hide contents

Alanna loses one, putting her in an unstable mental state that leads to Bonding Rand.  She will later be capture being held as a knife over Rand.

As you said, Moraine vs Lanfear.

Egwene Bonding Brigitte has stakes higher if you understand the bond.

Androl and Pevara.

Rand Min, Elayne, Aviendha.   

 

There's a bunch of stuff going on that matters without jumping to "They're inventing a horrible new story!"

Do we actually know what happens to a warder when their Aes Sedai is stilled?  -From the book perspective?  I can't think on one instance where it happens.  As to warders dying, well given that an Aes Sedai can die without causing the Warder to go into a blood rage, I feel the stakes have been reduced significantly.

[Lethira the second]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

 

 

Obviously, these are just areas where I feel money could have been saved on a per-episode basis. I don't actually know how any of the finances here shake out. But still, it's odd to me that the number which Amazon seemed unwilling to change was not the $80 million total budget for the season but the $10 million budget per episode. 

 

Why not go slightly cheaper and make 10 episodes if that's what Rafe really wanted? 

 

I question where the money was spent.  The CGI was lacklustre at best, every location felt empty and the battle scenes, including the one in episode 1 were just 'meh.

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Do we actually know what happens to a warder when their Aes Sedai is stilled?  -From the book perspective?  I can't think on one instance where it happens.  As to warders dying, well given that an Aes Sedai can die without causing the Warder to go into a blood rage, I feel the stakes have been reduced significantly.

It's specifically brought up that Lan can tell the bond is broken when it is and that he sensed it go.  Doesn't matter that it wasn't stilling, he's able to determine if the bond is intact or not.

[Lethira the second]

That's not the question I'm asking.  I know that Lan feels the bond break when Moiraine goes through the Ter'angreal.  That is a breaking of the bond, not Moiraine being cut off from the source. I would go so far as to say we don't have any evidence of the effects of someone being stilled on the Warder bond.

[Gothic Flame]

21 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I would go so far as to say we don't have any evidence of the effects of someone being stilled on the Warder bond.

You've got me reaching for book 7 now. Rand brutally stilled three sisters at the end of book 6, and I think one wasn't red... I recall a lot of sullen warders with sisters being shielded. I'll circle back in a bit.

 

Well...according to the wiki:

 

When Siuan Sanche's warder Alric was killed, she was stilled shortly after so she was saved from the pain an Aes Sedai would feel after losing a Warder. This indicates that stilling terminates the Warder bond. Once Siuan was Healed, she felt all the pain again, which indicates, Healing restores the Warder bond to that level, even after the death of a Warder. (More information is needed for this section.)

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Gothic Flame
Added text.

[Lethira the second]

I was fairly sure that those who got stilled at Dumai's Wells were all red.  I believe when Egwene has the Black Ajah from her camp executed they have the warders penned because they are expecting them to go crazy when their AS are killed.  I believe at this point, they have already been stilled.

[KakitaOCU]

40 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

That's not the question I'm asking.  I know that Lan feels the bond break when Moiraine goes through the Ter'angreal.  That is a breaking of the bond, not Moiraine being cut off from the source. I would go so far as to say we don't have any evidence of the effects of someone being stilled on the Warder bond.

If that's the case it invalidates the whole issue.

My original comment you quoted and addressed was in response to someone saying the Kerene/Steppin arc was being done to provide lead up for the "Moraine is stilled season 2 plot".

If she's not stilled, then the point is null, which is the argument I made.

If she is stilled, but that doesn't damage the bond or cause fallout or issue, then it likewise makes the point null, since one wouldn't be able to claim the Kerene/Steppin plot happened for that reason.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Lethira the second said:

That's not the question I'm asking.  I know that Lan feels the bond break when Moiraine goes through the Ter'angreal.  That is a breaking of the bond, not Moiraine being cut off from the source. I would go so far as to say we don't have any evidence of the effects of someone being stilled on the Warder bond.

That scene always bothered me, since the bond didn't automatically break when she went through in Tear, and she never died in the Finn's land. So either the burning of the doorway ripped the bond, or she intentionally severed it herself.

[KakitaOCU]

23 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

That scene always bothered me, since the bond didn't automatically break when she went through in Tear, and she never died in the Finn's land. So either the burning of the doorway ripped the bond, or she intentionally severed it herself.

I assumed the second.  She knew he'd never stop trying to rescue her so she sent him to Myrelle to prep him for Nynaeve as even with the devastation of the bond breaking it's still a better option than him entering the tower of Gengei.  Specially since she knew only 3 people could successfully rescue her.

[7th age]

3 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Why not go slightly cheaper and make 10 episodes if that's what Rafe really wanted? 

 

This is the part where Amazon REALLY shot themselves in the foot. I mean as I understand it there were quite alot more scenes shot for ep.1 character development already. Plus character development scenes in general arent the most costly ones, as you usually dont need CGI and the actors are already paid. Plus it is what Rafe wanted and what Im sure 99% of all fans they mightve asked before would have told them.

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, 7th age said:

 

This is the part where Amazon REALLY shot themselves in the foot. I mean as I understand it there were quite alot more scenes shot for ep.1 character development already. Plus character development scenes in general arent the most costly ones, as you usually dont need CGI and the actors are already paid. Plus it is what Rafe wanted and what Im sure 99% of all fans they mightve asked before would have told them.

Rafe said it never got past script stage. No scenes were shot that were omitted for this reason

Edited January 3, 2022 by Ralph

[7th age]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Rafe said it never got past script stage. No scenes were shot that were omitted for this reason

Werent there scenes in Nyns house with a lot of herbs etc. and what about the money shot from the trailer with E. and the colors?

I might overestimate this though.

Point still stands, I dont really see why Amazon has to give time restrictions to the productive team. Money, yes ofc there will coorporate decision making, but not giving time restrictions to Rafe would really only benefit the series.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

8 minutes ago, 7th age said:

Plus character development scenes in general arent the most costly ones, as you usually dont need CGI and the actors are already paid. Plus it is what Rafe wanted and what Im sure 99% of all fans they mightve asked before would have told them.

Right? Like, these are just scenes of people talking. They're cheap, and they go way farther towards creating an emotional attachment with the audience than a CGI extravaganza does. 

 

My theory is that part of the reason these scenes were so few is because the writers were afraid of bogging down the show with exposition and just completely overreacted. 

 

Also, scenes like this require a great deal of risk. If the writing isn't strong, they WILL be totally boring. It's just my sense of things, but the writers for this show don't come off to me as particularly confident. The writing is just too generic, too down the middle while also being weirdly over the top at times. Just seems amateurish. 

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Right? Like, these are just scenes of people talking. They're cheap, and they go way farther towards creating an emotional attachment with the audience than a CGI extravaganza does. 

 

My theory is that part of the reason these scenes were so few is because the writers were afraid of bogging down the show with exposition and just completely overreacted. 

 

Also, scenes like this require a great deal of risk. If the writing isn't strong, they WILL be totally boring. It's just my sense of things, but the writers for this show don't come off to me as particularly confident. The writing is just too generic, too down the middle while also being weirdly over the top at times. Just seems amateurish. 

My working theory on that is they wanted to firehose all of the world building in season 1, and do the personal stuff in season 2, while the world stuff just percolates along. I support their position that they couldn't do a lot of personal and world building in the same season, and the choice they made is a choice, but one which I don't have a particular feeling about.

 

Now that we know the world, we get to spend season 2 figuring out just who the EF5 are, and start their growth arcs in a meaningful way.

[notpropaganda73]

2 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

That scene always bothered me, since the bond didn't automatically break when she went through in Tear, and she never died in the Finn's land. So either the burning of the doorway ripped the bond, or she intentionally severed it herself.

Years of reading the books and honestly, it never occurred to me that she had already gone through a doorway, so why would the bond be broken the 2nd time she goes through! Nuggets like that are why coming to these forums is a joy ?

[Spiritweaver1]

7 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

That's not the question I'm asking.  I know that Lan feels the bond break when Moiraine goes through the Ter'angreal.  That is a breaking of the bond, not Moiraine being cut off from the source. I would go so far as to say we don't have any evidence of the effects of someone being stilled on the Warder bond.

Well we do have some evidence of that.  In the books when Siuan is stilled in the palace coup her warder is killed.  She doesn't really feel the emotional toll until Nyn heals her.  Then she cries a lot as she feels the loss.  The big place where Aes Sedai were stilled was the battle at Dumai Wells.  I can't remember offhand if any of them had Warders.  If I get some time tomorrow I might review it.  Very sad since I just read that book.  ? 

[Gothic Flame]

According to the wiki article mentioned above, stilling breaks the bond.

[Spiritweaver1]

3 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

My working theory on that is they wanted to firehose all of the world building in season 1, and do the personal stuff in season 2, while the world stuff just percolates along. I support their position that they couldn't do a lot of personal and world building in the same season, and the choice they made is a choice, but one which I don't have a particular feeling about.

 

Now that we know the world, we get to spend season 2 figuring out just who the EF5 are, and start their growth arcs in a meaningful way.

This is a nice theory but doesn't seem to conform with the facts.  They, in fact, did little world building.  They couldn't even be bothered to show a map in the beginning to show all the nations that will be eventually featured in the show.   I still don't know how their one power works or what the rules are.  I don't know the Ogier except they are apparently adherents  to the way of the leaf.   I don't know the names of the Forsaken or how they relate to dark friends.  I ended up with next to no knowledge of the Shienarians except they don't know how to use their horses in battle nor do they know how to defend a  wall.  I really don't know anything about the white cloaks except that they seem  to be murderous monsters.  I think we got more character building than world building.  The world that RJ built was wide and vast and this show will be but a pale shadow of that world, just as the characters seem to be funhouse reflections of their actual selves.  Where is Young Bull?  

 

Another thing, I am not down with relying on supplemental materials to explain things that should be clear from the story.  

[Jaysen Gore]

5 hours ago, 7th age said:

Werent there scenes in Nyns house with a lot of herbs etc. and what about the money shot from the trailer with E. and the colors?

I might overestimate this though.

Point still stands, I dont really see why Amazon has to give time restrictions to the productive team. Money, yes ofc there will coorporate decision making, but not giving time restrictions to Rafe would really only benefit the series.

My bet? Nyn's accepted testing next season, and an Egwene dream, if they weren't simply cut for run time like happens to trailer shots all the time.

 

And you give time restrictions to see if they can follow them - do they have the production discipline to make tough decisions? Can they be trusted with a tentpole franchise? Yes, more time would have been better, and maybe the criticism will highlight that, but the suits HAVE to know they can trust the showrunner to follow orders. Otherwise, he gone.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This is a nice theory but doesn't seem to conform with the facts.  They, in fact, did little world building.  They couldn't even be bothered to show a map in the beginning to show all the nations that will be eventually featured in the show.   I still don't know how their one power works or what the rules are.  I don't know the Ogier except they are apparently adherents  to the way of the leaf.   I don't know the names of the Forsaken or how they relate to dark friends.  I ended up with next to no knowledge of the Shienarians except they don't know how to use their horses in battle nor do they know how to defend a  wall.  I really don't know anything about the white cloaks except that they seem  to be murderous monsters.  I think we got more character building than world building.  The world that RJ built was wide and vast and this show will be but a pale shadow of that world, just as the characters seem to be funhouse reflections of their actual selves.  Where is Young Bull?  

 

Another thing, I am not down with relying on supplemental materials to explain things that should be clear from the story.  

They gave us the Aes Sedai - Ajah's, politics, functions, the warder bond, warder relationships (Egwene / Moiraine / Lan / Nynaeve)

They gave us the Whitecloaks - yes, fanatics, but glimpses of humanity within (Perrin)

They gave us Manetheren, Fal Dara, Shadar Logoth, the Ways, the Blight

They intro'ed the AoL (which may or may not play an on screen role), the Aiel (Rand) , and the Seanchan (Mat)

They gave us shadowspawn, Darkfriends, and the DO

 

They did not teach us the details of the power in S1, since that's how the girls spend the first half of S2. and there is no time for redundancy.  Young Bull will be Perrin's part of the personal development I referenced for S2.  Mat going to save the girls and find the dagger is part of it. Moiraine or Verin will teach us and Rand the Prophecies of the Dragon as they look for the truth, and for a cure for herself. 

We will learn the Forsaken as we learned them in the books - one at a time, and as cataclysmic threats to be feared.

 

And as for being a pale shadow of that world, yep, that's what it's going to be. At a LOTR / HP level of page translation to screen, I think I saw that WOT would be about 150 hours of television. To expect otherwise is to be woefully disappointed. 

[ilovezam]

Not sure if this was posted here already, but Rafe's original Ep 1 script was released, and everyone hates it. It's weird, to say the least, and it involves an explicit scene of Rand fingering Egwene, and Gitara asking Moiraine to kill the Dragon Reborn.

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/rvq3gw/show_someone_posted_the_original_script_for_the/

Edited January 5, 2022 by ilovezam