Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

As I mentioned in the ep8 thread, how you end something will leave the bigger impression. I know there are many that have hated this adaptation vehemently, and that’s ok, but as bitterly disappointed as I was with the finale I still have to say I enjoyed the season as a whole.

 

Episode 4 is really the shining light in terms of potential for the show. And I feel that they had strong moments through the middle episodes. The finale was an unmitigated disaster, but there was enough in S1 for me to be optimistic about

For me, and I think probably most people who are deeply disappointed, this has nothing to do with one episode. It’s how the series diverged more and more from the source material as it went along. 

[Yojimbo]

14 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

For me, and I think probably most people who are deeply disappointed, this has nothing to do with one episode. It’s how the series diverged more and more from the source material as it went along. 

Some will argue that it hardly diverged at all.  After all, it ended at some place they are calling The Eye of the World, so it's the same really.   

[CaddySedai]

Really it is very subjective.

 

Even here on DM you can see all stripes. Those that love it, those that hate it, and multiple shades between.

 

And each viewpoint will color exactly how you view each scene, episode, season.

[Hobo]

29 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Some will argue that it hardly diverged at all.  After all, it ended at some place they are calling The Eye of the World, so it's the same really.   

Just because it started and ended where it was supposed to, does not make it the same really. Especially when the start and the end weren't true to the books, so no, not the same.

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Hobo said:

Just because it started and ended where it was supposed to, does not make it the same really. Especially when the start and the end weren't true to the books, so no, not the same.

Sorry, left out the /s at the end of my post.

[Chivalry]

2 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

For me, and I think probably most people who are deeply disappointed, this has nothing to do with one episode. It’s how the series diverged more and more from the source material as it went along. 

 

I've accepted that there will be key changes in the story. I may not get to see the exact scenes I loved in the books portrayed on the screen. Everyone has their limit in terms of what they can or cannot accept, and I can accept quite a bit if it means I get to watch the WOT on TV.

 

Having said that, I'm much less tolerant to major changes in the story that diminish the characters I love. And even relatively minor changes in the script would go a long way towards making the show more enjoyable (for me).

 

For example...if you're going to jump-scare me into wondering whether Mat might have murdered an innocent farm family (mission accomplished...) - then fine...but perhaps balance that by at least showing Mat trying to rescue the young girl from the Fade. Doesn't take much extra film, and it would be a call back to the scene at Bel Tine where Mat rescues his younger sisters.

If you want to show Egwene channel to help free Perrin from the White Cloaks, fine...but would it hurt to show Perrin actually battle the Children to help escape the camp? Isn't that what happened in the books? 

 

Do we really need 5 Ta'veren? What's wrong with having 3 Ta'veren and 2 women who are destined to become great channelers (as in the books)? You can still have your 5 potential Dragons, if that's such a big deal.

 

 

 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Chivalry said:

..but would it hurt to show Perrin actually battle the Children to help escape the camp? Isn't that what happened in the books? 

.

 

 

 

I agree I would have preferred that, but it actually is not what happened in the books. He fought them earlier in the stedding

 

The reason they didn't go with this is because they have Perrin having actually adopted the Way of the Leaf by this stage. This is explicit in Ep8 and implied when he is explaining it to the others in Ep7. 

 

Also did you notice his hair changed to braids while he was with the Tinkers? I'm sure that was also for us to pick up on him adopting their culture. 

 

That said, they could have used it to add guilt. Even though in the show nobody would blame him because Whitecloaks are so much more visibly evil

[Mirefox]

I found Narg.

 

He is in The Witcher s2e1…

 

Along with the real Lan and Mandarb.

 

Seriously, though, I started Witcher season 2 yesterday and it almost set my blood boiling at WoT again because of how very Lan-like Geralt is in the show - quiet, vigilant, skilled, protective, etc.

 

I will never agree with the people who say that Lan had to be changed because the book version isn’t likable in film.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Mirefox

[Quiksilver]

17 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I found Narg.

 

He is in The Witcher s2e1…

 

Along with the real Lan and Mandarb.

 

Seriously, though, I started Witcher season 2 yesterday and it almost set my blood boiling at WoT again because of how very Lan-like Geralt is in the show - quiet, vigilant, skilled, protective, etc.

 

I will never agree with the people who say that Lan had to be changed because the book version isn’t likable in film.

 

Geralt in witcher season 2 is a way better Lan/warder impression than the junk in wot. 

[Quiksilver]

7 hours ago, Chivalry said:

Do we really need 5 Ta'veren? What's wrong with having 3 Ta'veren and 2 women who are destined to become great channelers (as in the books)? You can still have your 5 potential Dragons, if that's such a big deal.

 

The only ta'veren in the show is Moiraine.

[Quiksilver]

13 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

As I mentioned in the ep8 thread, how you end something will leave the bigger impression. I know there are many that have hated this adaptation vehemently, and that’s ok, but as bitterly disappointed as I was with the finale I still have to say I enjoyed the season as a whole.

 

Episode 4 is really the shining light in terms of potential for the show. And I feel that they had strong moments through the middle episodes. The finale was an unmitigated disaster, but there was enough in S1 for me to be optimistic about

 

Episode 4 is the only one not written by the Four Stooges.

 

Four Stooges:

- Rafe

- Celine Song

- Michael Clarkson

- Paul Clarkson

 

^ They wrote all episodes, except Episode 4.

 

Episode 4 writer = Dave Hill. He wrote a number of GoT episodes

Edited December 27, 2021 by Quiksilver

[Ralph]

10 minutes ago, Quiksilver said:

 

Episode 4 is the only one not written by the Four Stooges.

 

Four Stooges:

- Rafe

- Celine Song

- Michael Clarkson

- Paul Clarkson

 

^ They wrote all episodes, except Episode 4.

 

 

 

? 

[Guest Cranglevoid]

2 hours ago, Mirefox said:

I found Narg.

 

He is in The Witcher s2e1…

 

Along with the real Lan and Mandarb.

 

Seriously, though, I started Witcher season 2 yesterday and it almost set my blood boiling at WoT again because of how very Lan-like Geralt is in the show - quiet, vigilant, skilled, protective, etc.

 

I will never agree with the people who say that Lan had to be changed because the book version isn’t likable in film.

I watched E1S2 of The Witcher a couple of days ago too, and had pretty much the same reaction. "THIS is what WoT could have been? We could have had an adaptation at THIS level? With actual respect for the source material?"

 

It really is depressing. I sincerely hope they do some big changes for seasons 3 of WoT (since season 2 feels like a lost cause at this point).

[futurehermit]

22 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Time for a proper review of the season.

 

Let's start from characters.

 

Rating will be divided between acting and adaptation of the characters.

 

Here we go

 

Moiraine

Acting: 8/10 Pike is a great actress indeed and she has a central role in the series (more than in books). Manetheren speech was good (it is very difficult to do such a thing on a tv show) but she was solid overall even if there is no a single scene standing out. 

Adaptation: 5.5/10 While the character is essentially there, she is not mysterious as the book counterpart i.e. "hey guys, one of you is the Dragon, deal with it" or appears as intelligent.

 

Lan

Acting: 7/10 He is credible as Lan, do a solid job but nothing more than that to praise him. 

Adaptation: 2/10 This is where Rafe view starts making disasters. Of course, Lan is a stoic character but stoicism=toxic masculinity, so here comes the new Lan who is basically another person. And of course in no way it appears that he should be  the best of the best.

 

 

Rand

Acting: 6/10 He has written Rand Al'Thor all over him but the chances to shine, as a side-character, have been slim. 

Adaptation: 4/10 He is not butchered like the other two EF guys: as in the books also in the show he is the good and humble guy who wants a normal life but in the show he is deprived of all his moments and they have completely destroyed the struggle to accept who he really is.

 

Mat

Acting: 9/10 An excellent performance by a talented actor who unfortunately left the show. His character is not the book one but he is credible and delivers the perfect emotional balance for a character doing bad things (robbing the dead!) but caring for his sisters.

Adaptation: 0/10 He is a made-up character sharing only the name with the book Mat.

 

 

Perrin

Acting: 4/10 If there was an Oscar for staying with the mouth open, he would win it. I am not giving less only because i feel this character has been so butchered that no acting could save him.

Adaptation: 0/10 Killed his made-up wife, stayed with mouth open, enjoyed vegan cousine, fought over Egwene.

 

Egwene

Acting: 2/10 The weakest performer of the main cast, I really don't like her acting.

Adaptation: 0/10 How to transform a brilliant and ambitious young girl that however is still a rookie and naive in a Mary-sue. Well done Rafe.

 

Nynaeve

Acting: 7.5/10 She is really charismatic and a credible Nynaeve,  well  done by her.

Adaptation: 0/10 How to transform a great multifaceted character in a Mary-sue. Well done Rafe.

The fact that you don't even have Thom on this list showcases what a travesty it is that he got such little screen time in S1.  He rushed through the Owen story so fast that I have to wonder if non-book readers even noticed or cared.

 

Edit: but, hey, the viewers know who Kerene and Stepin are, now both dead with no ongoing impact on the story.

Edited December 27, 2021 by futurehermit

[WoTwasThat]

3 hours ago, Quiksilver said:

 

Episode 4 is the only one not written by the Four Stooges.

 

Four Stooges:

- Rafe

- Celine Song

- Michael Clarkson

- Paul Clarkson

 

^ They wrote all episodes, except Episode 4.

 

Episode 4 writer = Dave Hill. He wrote a number of GoT episodes

If that’s true, then that’s a stunning indictment. Episode 4 was the only one I thought was decent. Well and I was ok with episode 1, also. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by WoTwasThat

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

If that’s true, then that’s a stunning indictment. Episode 4 was the only one I thought was decent. Well and I was ok with episode 1, also. 

Its not true

 

1	"Leavetaking"	Uta Briesewitz	Rafe Judkins	November 19, 2021
2	"Shadow's Waiting"	Uta Briesewitz	Amanda Shuman	November 19, 2021
3	"A Place of Safety"	Wayne Yip	The Clarkson Twins	November 19, 2021
4	"The Dragon Reborn"	Wayne Yip	Dave Hill	November 26, 2021
5	"Blood Calls Blood"	Salli Richardson	Celine Song	December 3, 2021
6	"The Flame of Tar Valon"	Salli Richardson	Justine Juel Gillmer	December 10, 2021
7	"The Dark Along the Ways"	Ciaran Donnelly	Amanda Kate Shuman & Katherine B. McKenna	December 17, 2021
8	"The Eye of the World"	Ciaran Donnelly	Rafe Judkins	December 24, 2021

Edited December 27, 2021 by Ralph

[DaddyFinn]

4 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

I watched E1S2 of The Witcher a couple of days ago too, and had pretty much the same reaction. "THIS is what WoT could have been? We could have had an adaptation at THIS level? With actual respect for the source material?"

 

It really is depressing. I sincerely hope they do some big changes for seasons 3 of WoT (since season 2 feels like a lost cause at this point).

Funny, I have seen a huge amount of Witcher book fans ready to burn season 2 out of existence. Too many nonsensical changes, woke, people of color etc. Feels familiar..

 

Edit. Just read the episode reviews in IMDb. Some are awfully similar to WoT.

Edited December 27, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[jonsnow84]

15 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

Some will argue that it hardly diverged at all.  After all, it ended at some place they are calling The Eye of the World, so it's the same really.   

I have to assume this is heavy sarcasm

[Rogue One]

4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Funny, I have seen a huge amount of Witcher book fans ready to burn season 2 out of existence. Too many nonsensical changes, woke, people of color etc. Feels familiar..

 

Edit. Just read the episode reviews in IMDb. Some are awfully similar to WoT.

I think book fans probably would like Witcher season 1 better as it follows the books more closely - but a lot of my friends that did not read the book found it incredibly difficult to follow (aside from the episodic plot lines). I think season 2 is the opposite, it deviates from The books but it also streamlineS the plot a lot to (I presume) the benefit of non book readers.

 

I would imagine something similar could happen with WOT as well, which I would be fine with as long as it made for a coherent show. I thought season 1 was anything but…

 

(slight aside - pretty disheartening  that both fandoms find “people of colour” in adaptions as something to criticise…)  

[Quiksilver]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

Its not true

 

1	"Leavetaking"	Uta Briesewitz	Rafe Judkins	November 19, 2021
2	"Shadow's Waiting"	Uta Briesewitz	Amanda Shuman	November 19, 2021
3	"A Place of Safety"	Wayne Yip	The Clarkson Twins	November 19, 2021
4	"The Dragon Reborn"	Wayne Yip	Dave Hill	November 26, 2021
5	"Blood Calls Blood"	Salli Richardson	Celine Song	December 3, 2021
6	"The Flame of Tar Valon"	Salli Richardson	Justine Juel Gillmer	December 10, 2021
7	"The Dark Along the Ways"	Ciaran Donnelly	Amanda Kate Shuman & Katherine B. McKenna	December 17, 2021
8	"The Eye of the World"	Ciaran Donnelly	Rafe Judkins	December 24, 2021

 

Yea I posted pre-maturely. Here is the actual list

 

Core:

- Rafe Judkins (e01,e08 + showrunner all episodes)

- Celine Song (e05 + staff writer all episodes)

- Michael Clarkson (story editor all episodes)

- Paul Clarkson (story editor all episodes)

Guest:

- Amanda Kate Shuman (e02,e07)

- Justine Juel Gillmer (e06)

- Katherine B. McKenna (e07)

- Dave Hill (e04)

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Quiksilver

[Yojimbo]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

Its not true

 

1	"Leavetaking"	Uta Briesewitz	Rafe Judkins	November 19, 2021
2	"Shadow's Waiting"	Uta Briesewitz	Amanda Shuman	November 19, 2021
3	"A Place of Safety"	Wayne Yip	The Clarkson Twins	November 19, 2021
4	"The Dragon Reborn"	Wayne Yip	Dave Hill	November 26, 2021
5	"Blood Calls Blood"	Salli Richardson	Celine Song	December 3, 2021
6	"The Flame of Tar Valon"	Salli Richardson	Justine Juel Gillmer	December 10, 2021
7	"The Dark Along the Ways"	Ciaran Donnelly	Amanda Kate Shuman & Katherine B. McKenna	December 17, 2021
8	"The Eye of the World"	Ciaran Donnelly	Rafe Judkins	December 24, 2021

The first and the last episodes were the worst IMO.  So, still pretty bad.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Funny, I have seen a huge amount of Witcher book fans ready to burn season 2 out of existence. Too many nonsensical changes, woke, people of color etc. Feels familiar..

 

Edit. Just read the episode reviews in IMDb. Some are awfully similar to WoT.

Yes, there are people obsessed with skin-color tearing into both shows and posting negative reviews everywhere they can.

 

I don't care about that, though. I focus on unnecessary changes made to the actual characters (not their appearance) and the story, and The Witcher series easily comes out on top there, by a landslide. Changes from the books have been made for both, but The Witcher does it much, much better.

[flinn]

5 hours ago, Rogue One said:

I think book fans probably would like Witcher season 1 better as it follows the books more closely - but a lot of my friends that did not read the book found it incredibly difficult to follow (aside from the episodic plot lines). I think season 2 is the opposite, it deviates from The books but it also streamlineS the plot a lot to (I presume) the benefit of non book readers.

 

I would imagine something similar could happen with WOT as well, which I would be fine with as long as it made for a coherent show. I thought season 1 was anything but…

 

(slight aside - pretty disheartening  that both fandoms find “people of colour” in adaptions as something to criticise…)  

 It was the stupid timeline that made season 1 confusing for some. It took me about 3 episodes to realize what was happening and that was thanks the recently watching Westworld.

[Wassup]

A question I just thought of regarding Moiraine. 
If she was stilled, wouldn’t that release her from all oaths taken on the oath rod?  She would be able to return to TV without Siuan calling her back. 

[Vambram]

4 minutes ago, Wassup said:

A question I just thought of regarding Moiraine. 
If she was stilled, wouldn’t that release her from all oaths taken on the oath rod?  She would be able to return to TV without Siuan calling her back. 

 

You are correct. If Moiraine was stilled, instead of shielded, then she would be released from all of the oaths she had taken on the oath rod.