Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[orbops]

On 12/18/2021 at 10:10 AM, Sabio said:

I agree with others, for me bonus material doesn't count.

That seems like an overly harsh assessment. So does that mean you don't want any show to have extras or bonus material? What about commentaries on a DVD?

[CaddySedai]

The books had bonus materials in their Glossary. Its how you could go over if you forgot a term mentioned- and in greater detail.

 

Then came the companions, etc.

 

Bonus material has always been a part of this series ?

[Sabio]

24 minutes ago, orbops said:

That seems like an overly harsh assessment. So does that mean you don't want any show to have extras or bonus material? What about commentaries on a DVD?

If they felt Fain holding the leaf was important they could of easily of found the time to add it.  Clearly Nyn and Lan having dinner or the pointless love triangle arguement were more important.  They felt that stuff added more to the story.  So tossing that in as "bonus" material to say ohhh this also happened,. nope didn't happen.

 

 

[RextheDog]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

 

But in the end there is no wrong way to watch the show -

 

 

you make some great points, but your miles wide of the mark here.....

 

you should be in a comfortable position that encourages good posture, not slouched with an arched back and the lighting should be adjusted to reduce glare and having to squint for the darker scenes...

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

 

you make some great points, but your miles wide of the mark here.....

 

you should be in a comfortable position that encourages good posture, not slouched with an arched back and the lighting should be adjusted to reduce glare and having to squint for the darker scenes...

I'm doing this all wrong.

[dwn]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

If they felt Fain holding the leaf was important they could of easily of found the time to add it.  Clearly Nyn and Lan having dinner or the pointless love triangle arguement were more important.  They felt that stuff added more to the story.  So tossing that in as "bonus" material to say ohhh this also happened,. nope didn't happen.

 

 

The "love triangle" scene wasn't pointless. It shows Rand trying to push his friends away to keep them safe--exactly like he does in TGH--which foreshadows both his acknowledgment (if not acceptance) of being the Dragon Reborn, and his decision to run off with Moiraine. The order of things may be different than in the book, but it's completely in line with Rand's character.

 

I'd have greatly preferred them to use the avendesora leaf to open the Waygate, but it's not catastrophic. A viewer without book knowledge will conclude that Fain either can channel, had help from someone who can channel, or had some other way of opening the Waygate.

 

I do wonder if channelling the gate open was a change made when they had to swerve to justify leaving Mat outside.

[MasterAblar]

I feel like the still with the avendesora leaf is just targeted towards readers to be honest. To viewers it means nothing, to readers it means ok that still exists and will hopefully come up again in the future. Such as when Perrin travels back to the Two Rivers.

[Chivalry]

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I feel like the still with the avendesora leaf is just targeted towards readers to be honest. To viewers it means nothing, to readers it means ok that still exists and will hopefully come up again in the future. Such as when Perrin travels back to the Two Rivers.

Nevertheless, I, too, wish the WOT team had adhered to the Leaf of the Ways.

[futurehermit]

5 hours ago, dwn said:

The "love triangle" scene wasn't pointless. It shows Rand trying to push his friends away to keep them safe--exactly like he does in TGH--which foreshadows both his acknowledgment (if not acceptance) of being the Dragon Reborn, and his decision to run off with Moiraine. The order of things may be different than in the book, but it's completely in line with Rand's character.

 

I'd have greatly preferred them to use the avendesora leaf to open the Waygate, but it's not catastrophic. A viewer without book knowledge will conclude that Fain either can channel, had help from someone who can channel, or had some other way of opening the Waygate.

 

I do wonder if channelling the gate open was a change made when they had to swerve to justify leaving Mat outside.

Rand pushing his friends away, fine.  Perrin having a thing for Egwene and Nynaeve yelling she's tired of Rand and Perrin fighting over Egwene is what makes no sense and comes out of nowhere.

[CaddySedai]

Since it is somewhat related to the show lol. figured id share. 

 

[Joe B]

18 hours ago, futurehermit said:

Perrin having a thing for Egwene and Nynaeve yelling she's tired of Rand and Perrin fighting over Egwene is what makes no sense and comes out of nowhere

I had a problem with also. However, after perusing EoTW, I can see where they are pulling it from:

 

In chapter 30, in conversation with Elyas:

“Egwene never dragged her feet in her life,” he protested. “She always does her share. I don’t despise her, I love her.” He glared at Elyas, daring him to laugh. “Not like that. I mean, she isn’t like a sister, but she and Rand. . . . Blood and ashes! If the ravens caught us. . . . If. . . . I don’t know.”¹

 

I always took this passage to mean Perrin wasn't "into" Egwene. After some thought, it could be interpreted that Perrin would be sliding into her DMs if she wasn't with Rand. Although I see it as pointless to the plot, it isn't completely fabricated. I guess it makes good TV drama...or maybe CW show material.

 

¹Jordan, Robert. The Eye of the World: Book One of The Wheel of Time (p. 412). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

[futurehermit]

I'm doing a re-read and remember that part.  I still don't buy it.  He loves her in the way someone loves a dear friend.  And even if one wanted to read more into it, and even make the case that he was jealous of Aram, he says himself there that he respects the fact that Rand loves Egwene.  He certainly wouldn't be fighting over her with Rand.  Annnnnnd, even if they change it from the books, we still see next to nil of this love triangle fighting in the show before Nynaeve's outburst.  When she said it, my reaction was "huh, what the heck is she talking about?"  Perrin spends his time grieving his wife, even when Egwene hugs him and even when he thinks one of them is going to be killed by Valda.  They are on the road alone together, Rand nowhere to be seen, and everything is really platonic imo.

[ArrylT]

Screentime for all characters now posted on reddit (with breakdowns per episode)

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by ArrylT
included previous 1-6 chart

[KakitaOCU]

On 12/19/2021 at 6:52 PM, futurehermit said:

Rand pushing his friends away, fine.  Perrin having a thing for Egwene and Nynaeve yelling she's tired of Rand and Perrin fighting over Egwene is what makes no sense and comes out of nowhere.

Except it's clear Nynaeve is wrong in this instance.  Just like she was wrong in assuming Lan was with Moraine back in episode 4.  She reads romance into things and jumps to conclusions.

[themann1086]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except it's clear Nynaeve is wrong in this instance.  Just like she was wrong in assuming Lan was with Moraine back in episode 4.  She reads romance into things and jumps to conclusions.

Oh God she's a Shipper!

[TheSmurf]

19 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except it's clear Nynaeve is wrong in this instance.

How is it clear? 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, TheSmurf said:

How is it clear? 

One big hint is how quickly Rand and Egwene dismiss the situation when they are alone in the archery range.

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, TheSmurf said:

How is it clear? 

A number of reasons.

1: Perring has shown no romantic attraction or feelings towards Egwene what-so-ever.  He looked at her and Rand in the ways and turned away which could be a number of emotions and is the only thing Nynaeve saw since she was separated from Perrin since episode 1.

2: Nynaeve has a history of jumping to that wrong conclusion after assuming the same for Lan and Moraine in episode 4.

3: Perrin and Egwene both flat out say that it's not the case.

4: Rand jump on the point to drive a wedge between him and Perrin, then completely lets it go with only a little bit of explanation.  (Almost as if he's deliberately trying to drive his friends away from him based on a dark secret he knows of himself).  In this series, characters taking solid reasoning and backing down?

Those are the reasons that jump to my mind offhand.

[Skipp]

And here is the final teaser for the finale

 

 

Hard for me to be any more excited than I already am but this does give me tingles.

[TheSmurf]

40 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

A number of reasons.

1: Perring has shown no romantic attraction or feelings towards Egwene what-so-ever.  He looked at her and Rand in the ways and turned away which could be a number of emotions and is the only thing Nynaeve saw since she was separated from Perrin since episode 1.

2: Nynaeve has a history of jumping to that wrong conclusion after assuming the same for Lan and Moraine in episode 4.

3: Perrin and Egwene both flat out say that it's not the case.

4: Rand jump on the point to drive a wedge between him and Perrin, then completely lets it go with only a little bit of explanation.  (Almost as if he's deliberately trying to drive his friends away from him based on a dark secret he knows of himself).  In this series, characters taking solid reasoning and backing down?

Those are the reasons that jump to my mind offhand.

Laila not attending Egwene's ceremony

+

Her and Perrin's dialogue implying a strained marriage 

+

Perrin given Rand and Egwene a debated look (Wistfulness? Jealousy?) 

+

Machin Shin preying on Perrin's fears of not being completely his Wife's

+

The village wisdom making a comment that goes with the above 'flow' 

=

Nothing to see here, folks.

 

Am I saying this clearly indicates Perrin loved Egwene? 

 

In fact I'm not (and certainly would prefer it to not be the case).

 

But how someone can categorically state it's clear Nynaeve is 'wrong' is beyond my understanding. 

 

Edit: Just to be clear, this is stemming way more from my criticism/frustration of the plot / writing choices rather than someone's interpretation of them. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by TheSmurf

[KakitaOCU]

15 minutes ago, TheSmurf said:

Laila not attending Egwene's ceremony

+

Her and Perrin's dialogue implying a strained marriage 

+

Perrin given Rand and Egwene a debated look (Wistfulness? Jealousy?) 

+

Machin Shin preying on Perrin's fears of not being completely his Wife's

+

The village wisdom making a comment that goes with the above 'flow' 

=

Nothing to see here, folks.

 

Am I saying this clearly indicates Perrin loved Egwene? 

 

In fact I'm not (and certainly would prefer it to not be the case).

 

But how someone can categorically state it's clear Nynaeve is 'wrong' is beyond my understanding. 

 

Edit: Just to be clear, this is stemming way more from my criticism/frustration of the plot / writing choices rather than someone's interpretation of them. 

First two points show Laila is jealous or has an issue with Egwene, more reason for Nynaeve to read it wrong since it's likely Laila spoke to her.

Third is debatable, it's clearly meant to be set so a newcomer CAN take it that way, which also obscures what Rand is doing, but we know Perrin's nose is sensitive.  Even if it's an honest read, he could be looking at them having comfort in each other, missing his wife and being envious of the closeness but not the specific person.

Machin Shin uses seeds of truth and bends.  It's very possible Perrin once had feelings but let them go long ago.  It's also possible because of those feelings there's a slight conflict in him over these feelings without them being complete attraction.

Nynaeve making the observation isn't evidence for or against Nynaeve being wrong.

[ArrylT]

So Jon of WoTUp YT Channel has brought up a theory of his in his latest Ep7 Breakdown video.   He suggests that some of the editing being done is due to the character perspective.  

 

You can listen from 22:00 to understand it in his words.

 

But basically that some of the editing is being shown from different character perspectives than we think, which therefore makes it look weirder or different.   

 

Example (a):

 

Nynaeve/Lan -  We see what looks like Lan suddenly appear outside that house.   Well if it is from Nynaeves perspective, and she is lost in the moment & thinking about what she saw, then yes Lan is going to look like he just appeared since she is sort of distracted.  

 

Example (b):

 

In Episode 3 we see Rand break down the door.  Now if we are watching from Rands perspective, then the lack of channeling shown is "cheating".  But if we're seeing it through Danas it is not.   Then the possibly perspective changes after he leaves.  The way it plays out after that sort of suggets jumping back and forth from Mat & Dana.

 

Sometimes it is from no specific character perspective - simply because as David Jones comments (on the video):

 

"In some cases the audience has been shown things that no character on screen has been able to see: for instance when Logain and the Aes Sedai were both channeling. He couldn't see their weaves, they couldn't see his, Stepin couldn't see either (just a vulnerable Logain) but the viewer got to see everything (because otherwise we'd have no idea what was happening)."

 

 

Now this does not explain all of the editing / pacing - some of that is experience, some of that is pandemic (ie it had to be shot/re-shot in a specific way), some of that is the time restrictions, but it is an interesting theory that perhaps some of those edits (20-30%?) were done specifically because they were showcasing it from a specific perspective (and perhaps wanted a bit of "jarring" effect to hint the pov had adjusted).  

 

When I do a complete re-watch of the show after the finale I'm going to see if I can see how valid this theory could be.   

[TheDreadReader]

9 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Example (b):

 

In Episode 3 we see Rand break down the door.  Now if we are watching from Rands perspective, then the lack of channeling shown is "cheating".  But if we're seeing it through Danas it is not.   Then the possibly perspective changes after he leaves.  The way it plays out after that sort of suggets jumping back and forth from Mat & Dana.

 

Huh.  I always assumed the Rand with the door thing was shown from a perspective that did not allow the viewer to see the channeling (because they were not ready to reveal the channeling yet).   I feel the same way about the escape from SL sequence (because I think they left themselves room for him to have channeled there as well).  

 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

31 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Huh.  I always assumed the Rand with the door thing was shown from a perspective that did not allow the viewer to see the channeling (because they were not ready to reveal the channeling yet).   I feel the same way about the escape from SL sequence (because I think they left themselves room for him to have channeled there as well).  

 

 

I never had any doubt this was from Dana's POV; Rand's would have been nothing but door at that point ?

[Skipp]

15 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I never had any doubt this was from Dana's POV; Rand's would have been nothing but door at that point ?

To be fair Rand never saw the weaves the first 3 times he channels in the books.