Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

No. They take the Ways back to the Blight, and join the masse marching on Tarwin's Gap.

Trollocs attacking a small village in the middle of nowhere, leaving no trace along the way from the blight, isn't something people are going to believe. They'll hear the stories going "yeah right dude. You're making this bloody stuff up!"

But had that trolloc army carved a path through Andor? Made it to the Walls of Tar Valon? Yea.... people would have noticed. The world would have noticed...

And they had full bellies from take-out at Taren Ferry.

[DaddyFinn]

If anyone is interested. I probably won't watch it because it's too long ?

 

 

 

[fra85uk]

But in the books, you really get the sense of urgency of the group being hunted with trollocs coming even close to the surroundings of Caemlyn and multiple darkfriends encounters along the way.

 

Honestly, this one-month gap of no attacks and no darkfriends is not credible for me and I am not convinced by the justifications that I am reading. It is just lazy writing all over the place. 

This sums up with Moraine basically also not caring about getting the boys and Egwene back.

One of them is the DR reborn, the saviour of the world, she spent 20 years serching for him (or her in the show), nothing should be more important than that! (In fact, in the books she gave the coins to them, in case they got separated because of the dangers along the road, because you know book-Moraine was smart)

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, fra85uk said:

But in the books, you really get the sense of urgency of the group being hunted with trollocs coming even close to the surroundings of Caemlyn and multiple darkfriends encounters along the way.

As far as I remember in the books, they last spotted Trollocs outside of Shadar Logoth. They then had multiple encounters with DF's along the way.

In the show, a lot could have happened in that month. Mat looks like shit, but Rand isn't exactly a picture of health at the start of Episode 5 either. 

Some theorize that they took a boat north, and that's why they're coming to Tar Valon a bit from the north-east.

[DojoToad]

13 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

But in the books, you really get the sense of urgency of the group being hunted with trollocs coming even close to the surroundings of Caemlyn and multiple darkfriends encounters along the way.

 

Honestly, this one-month gap of no attacks and no darkfriends is not credible for me and I am not convinced by the justifications that I am reading. It is just lazy writing all over the place. 

This sums up with Moraine basically also not caring about getting the boys and Egwene back.

One of them is the DR reborn, the saviour of the world, she spent 20 years serching for him (or her in the show), nothing should be more important than that! (In fact, in the books she gave the coins to them, in case they got separated because of the dangers along the road, because you know book-Moraine was smart)

 

 

20-year search to 'meh' did bother me.

[fra85uk]

15 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

As far as I remember in the books, they last spotted Trollocs outside of Shadar Logoth. They then had multiple encounters with DF's along the way.

In the show, a lot could have happened in that month. Mat looks like shit, but Rand isn't exactly a picture of health at the start of Episode 5 either. 

Some theorize that they took a boat north, and that's why they're coming to Tar Valon a bit from the north-east.

 

Yes but as viewer I do not know about it.

As a viewer, I see that basically the world has been  frozen for one month. 

At least, do a minimal effort and let the guys say something about the dangers they passed in the last month.

 

Not to forget that basically they ended ep4 with Nyn going full Dragonball and with big hints at her being the DR and then they did not show any of the aftermath of this. It is frankly absurd.

I had several non-readers friends that were perplexed because they were sure Nyn was the DR after Ep4.

Edited December 8, 2021 by fra85uk

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, fra85uk said:

Yes but as viewer I do not know about it.

As a viewer, I see that basically the world has been  frozen for one month. 

At least, do a minimal effort and let the guys say something about the dangers they passed in the last month.

As book readers, we also didn't find out about the Fain's use of the Ways until what, book 4? (I don't recall Fain admitting how he got the Trollocs' to the Two Rivers in his Fal Dara prison scene at the end of EoTW)

As a viewer, you're going to ask "why aren't the Trollocs carving a swath thru Andor to pursue them?
The answer? WAFO.
We're probably going to get some lovely Trollocs in the ways.

[Ralph]

25 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

But in the books, you really get the sense of urgency of the group being hunted with trollocs coming even close to the surroundings of Caemlyn 

 

 

In EotW? 

[fra85uk]

No doubt that details can be left out for later but the story that "the DR candidates are hunted by the forces of the Dark One" has not been delivered in a impactful manner for me. I did not feel tension. 

[fra85uk]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

In EotW? 

 

I remember that there were sighted close to Caemlyn too. They were using the ways at some point (re-read Eotw 2-3 years ago).

[Theseus78]

IIRC, Lan had found signs of small bands of Trollocs hiding in the woods near Caemlyn, showing that they were preparing an ambush once the EF5 left town. 

 

Only DF and Fades on the road for Mat and Rand.

[MasterAblar]

16 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

As book readers, we also didn't find out about the Fain's use of the Ways until what, book 4? (I don't recall Fain admitting how he got the Trollocs' to the Two Rivers in his Fal Dara prison scene at the end of EoTW)

As a viewer, you're going to ask "why aren't the Trollocs carving a swath thru Andor to pursue them?
The answer? WAFO.
We're probably going to get some lovely Trollocs in the ways.

 

I should remember better having just recently read the end of EotW but I'm fairly certain Moiraine discovers that the waygate from Manetheren was used. Loial comments on it in fact I think.

[Vambram]

46 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

If anyone is interested. I probably won't watch it because it's too long ?

 

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing this video. I am watching it now and this is a good, informative, and interesting video. It was cool to hear the questions and see the reactions from another author, Dan Wells. 

[dwn]

47 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Perrin did not lose control.  He was an untrained villager caught in a chaotic fight for his life and he made a mistake.  He can still feel guilt for making that mistake, being human and all, but I imagine that 99% of us in the same situation would have been swinging at any sound or movement.

 

From a reader/viewer perspective, Perrin may not be morally culpable, yet from his POV the adrenaline rush he gets from fighting feels like a loss of control. And he frequently compares "losing himself" in battle to "losing himself" to the wolf. It's all thought/reason vs. instinct/emotion. What to us is part of Perrin's nature is, to him, proof that he can't control himself. Thus, he feels guilt over it.

[notpropaganda73]

46 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

As far as I remember in the books, they last spotted Trollocs outside of Shadar Logoth. They then had multiple encounters with DF's along the way.

In the show, a lot could have happened in that month. Mat looks like shit, but Rand isn't exactly a picture of health at the start of Episode 5 either. 

Some theorize that they took a boat north, and that's why they're coming to Tar Valon a bit from the north-east.

I'm enjoying the show but I really don't think theorising about what *could* have happened in that month makes the case any stronger here. Even a throwaway line from Mat/Rand about everyone being a Darkfriend would help build out what happened on their journey a little more. We last saw Mat and Rand encountering a Darkfriend in ep3 and fleeing a Fade, this terrifying creature, in ep4. From that we see them show up in Tar Valon looking the worse for wear, but we don't have any further context about what has happened in that month. As it is, all we are left to do is theorise and imo that's not good enough for a TV show.

 

But I will say we haven't seen the full season 1 yet so who knows what we will see in the final three episodes to flesh out Mat and Rand's journey (Rand particularly). So while it is a gripe of mine at the moment, I'm not overly het up about it until I see how they've decided to tell the story over the course of the full season. 

 

Edit: An example of what I mean is in the scene where Mat asks Rand to "tell him again" about not killing that family. If they insert a few lines before that, it gives us more context for their journey. Something about not trusting the innkeeper even, Mat saying they could be just another Darkfriend like the last town, Rand repeating that Thom had told him about the place and Thom wasn't a DF. 

 

That would even remind Mat of when they last saw Thom and lead him on to "Tell me again". 

 

Obviously I'm not a writer so ^that is clunky and it could be done a lot better, but I think *something* there would help make the "one month later" feel more real. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[Ralph]

10 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I'm enjoying the show but I really don't think theorising about what *could* have happened in that month makes the case any stronger here. Even a throwaway line from Mat/Rand about everyone being a Darkfriend would help build out what happened on their journey a little more. We last saw Mat and Rand encountering a Darkfriend in ep3 and fleeing a Fade, this terrifying creature, in ep4. From that we see them show up in Tar Valon looking the worse for wear, but we don't have any further context about what has happened in that month. As it is, all we are left to do is theorise and imo that's not good enough for a TV show.

 

But I will say we haven't seen the full season 1 yet so who knows what we will see in the final three episodes to flesh out Mat and Rand's journey (Rand particularly). So while it is a gripe of mine at the moment, I'm not overly het up about it until I see how they've decided to tell the story over the course of the full season. 

 

Edit: An example of what I mean is in the scene where Mat asks Rand to "tell him again" about not killing that family. If they insert a few lines before that, it gives us more context for their journey. Something about not trusting the innkeeper even, Mat saying they could be just another Darkfriend like the last town, Rand repeating that Thom had told him about the place and Thom wasn't a DF. 

 

That would even remind Mat of when they last saw Thom and lead him on to "Tell me again". 

 

Obviously I'm not a writer so ^that is clunky and it could be done a lot better, but I think *something* there would help make the "one month later" feel more real. 

 

Agree with this

 

But I have to say the main thing I miss is the flashback within a flashback within a flashback. That would be amazing tv

[RextheDog]

32 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

No doubt that details can be left out for later but the story that "the DR candidates are hunted by the forces of the Dark One" has not been delivered in a impactful manner for me. I did not feel tension. 

 

to be fair i haven't read the books for a bit, but i'm (kind of) sure the trollocs called off the chase after SL didn't they? so some of the criticisms seem off target, but, my feeling in the books,  was a constant stealth element following rand and mat....that hasn't really been fleshed out as well as it could have been.

 

they've met one darkfriend and seen one Fade,  which to me was disappointing, it didn't give the feeling they were being stalked at every turn.

 

i did like episode 5, but on multiple re-watches, yes, they could have shaved back a bit of the Stepin story and fleshed out the main characters.

 

 

 

 

[Katherine]

^{I agree with a lot being said here.} 

 

^{While the "one month later" thing didn't bother me in the moment, I kept waiting for more fallout from Nyn's massive "power up". It was such an explosive moment and they just dropped it for EP5. Feels weird.} 

[MasterAblar]

28 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Agree with this

 

But I have to say the main thing I miss is the flashback within a flashback within a flashback. That would be amazing tv

 

That chapter confused me so much when I first read it. Read it again recently. Might actually be more confused.

[phoenixtrinity]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

That chapter confused me so much when I first read it. Read it again recently. Might actually be more confused.

Remind me which chapter this is? I'd like to go back and read it.

[phoenixtrinity]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

 

Yes but as viewer I do not know about it.

As a viewer, I see that basically the world has been  frozen for one month. 

At least, do a minimal effort and let the guys say something about the dangers they passed in the last month.

 

Not to forget that basically they ended ep4 with Nyn going full Dragonball and with big hints at her being the DR and then they did not show any of the aftermath of this. It is frankly absurd.

I had several non-readers friends that were perplexed because they were sure Nyn was the DR after Ep4.

 

I'm loving the series and haven't agreed with most criticisms so far, but I will say this is something I noticed too and I wish they would have had the time skip referenced in dialogue instead of on-screen.

 

A simple line from Rand: "I can't believe we made it to Tar Valon, Mat. Just think, one month of running for our lives and we can finally have a warm bed and a full belly." Mat: "Seems like a fair trade to me."

 

And throw in something about Nynaeve being sick or fatigued. I'd also like to see Rand sick. I'm hoping there's a flashback to justify this.

[DojoToad]

55 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

From a reader/viewer perspective, Perrin may not be morally culpable, yet from his POV the adrenaline rush he gets from fighting feels like a loss of control. And he frequently compares "losing himself" in battle to "losing himself" to the wolf. It's all thought/reason vs. instinct/emotion. What to us is part of Perrin's nature is, to him, proof that he can't control himself. Thus, he feels guilt over it.

In the books he feared losing his humanity to the wolves.  He has not addressed it in the show yet (unless it was episode 5?)  I think in the show when he repeatedly bashed into the trollocs face - that could be a losing himself/bloodlust moment.  But even though it happened immediately adjacent, the swing at Laila was driven by fear not bloodlust.

 

Just my perspective.  Maybe I'm cutting the line too fine?

[DaddyFinn]

33 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

That chapter confused me so much when I first read it. Read it again recently. Might actually be more confused.

I never even realised there was a flashback sequence. I still don't. ?

[themann1086]

Yeah I'm rarely a fan of text-on-screen time skips. Show don't tell. One of the few exceptions is (spoiler for the MCU)

Spoiler

The "Five *beat* Years Later" in Endgame, which caused the audience I watched it with to gasp

It's not like a gamebreaker or anything but I do find it annoying.

[TheDreadReader]

43 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

A simple line from Rand: "I can't believe we made it to Tar Valon, Mat. Just think, one month of running for our lives and we can finally have a warm bed and a full belly." Mat: "Seems like a fair trade to me."

 

 

Isn't there a line from Mat about a month on the road in episode 5?