Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[DojoToad]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

Never seen Spinal Tap, but I did see this scene.

[AdamA]

I think some of what they're doing here are not necessarily bad choices in a vacuum, but they illustrate a difficulty of adapting rich source material. I know they're not going to actually add new characters to a series with 2800+ named characters already in it, so as soon as Kerene and Steppin show up, I'm just waiting for them to die, so it has no emotional impact and serves as effectively wasted time. That compounds the mad dash to go straight to Tar Valon having the unfortunate effect of making the world feel smaller and less dangerous than in EOTW. They got there so quickly and easily. It wasn't actually easy on any absolute scale, and they said it's been over a month, but it was easier than the book, it sure doesn't look like a month watching it happen on screen, and the only characters who died were either characters I knew were going to die or a character I know isn't actually dead in the case of Thom. The lack of screentime for Rand and all this dragon misdirection plays badly when you already know who the dragon is. It feels like even more wasted time, and meanwhile no one has even yet told them that the Eye of the World is a thing and there are only three episodes left.

 

We're barely getting to know the main five kids, we barely see any of the world, and it's been all about the plot, except the plot doesn't make any sense because no one has yet explained who that dream guy with the fire eyes is and what he wants with them. The age after age eternal quest to corrupt Lews Therin to the dark that is the entire reason any of this matters hasn't even come up. They've made it seem like the point is just "every time a TargaryenDragon is born, God flips a coin and the world waits" to see if it's a girl and then everything is fine.

 

Maybe that would make a fine story, but I don't believe yet that they're really going to change the whole thing that fundamentally, so it's making the first season seem like a fakeout and we're left waiting for the real story to start next season.

[DaddyFinn]

20 minutes ago, AdamA said:

I think some of what they're doing here are not necessarily bad choices in a vacuum, but they illustrate a difficulty of adapting rich source material. I know they're not going to actually add new characters to a series with 2800+ named characters already in it, so as soon as Kerene and Steppin show up, I'm just waiting for them to die, so it has no emotional impact and serves as effectively wasted time. That compounds the mad dash to go straight to Tar Valon having the unfortunate effect of making the world feel smaller and less dangerous than in EOTW. They got there so quickly and easily. It wasn't actually easy on any absolute scale, and they said it's been over a month, but it was easier than the book, it sure doesn't look like a month watching it happen on screen, and the only characters who died were either characters I knew were going to die or a character I know isn't actually dead in the case of Thom. The lack of screentime for Rand and all this dragon misdirection plays badly when you already know who the dragon is. It feels like even more wasted time, and meanwhile no one has even yet told them that the Eye of the World is a thing and there are only three episodes left.

 

We're barely getting to know the main five kids, we barely see any of the world, and it's been all about the plot, except the plot doesn't make any sense because no one has yet explained who that dream guy with the fire eyes is and what he wants with them. The age after age eternal quest to corrupt Lews Therin to the dark that is the entire reason any of this matters hasn't even come up. They've made it seem like the point is just "every time a TargaryenDragon is born, God flips a coin and the world waits" to see if it's a girl and then everything is fine.

 

Maybe that would make a fine story, but I don't believe yet that they're really going to change the whole thing that fundamentally, so it's making the first season seem like a fakeout and we're left waiting for the real story to start next season.

This show can't be done for book fans alone. Non-readers are the main audience and their views will decide how many seasons we get. It seems to be doing pretty well so far.

[Harad the White]

36 minutes ago, AdamA said:

2800+ named characters already in it, so as soon as Kerene and Steppin show up, I'm just waiting for them to die,

Yes. I'm starting to get overfilled with the homages to LoTR, but I thought this could be pointing to the other recent franchise GoT. People seemed to like that when apparently important characters died--it makes it "gritty." So maybe Stepin was the sacrificial lamb in the "we're sorta like GoT' attempt.

[Badmaw]

GOT is the best fantasy series of all time.  WOT (in my opinion) is second all time.  The producers at HBO nailed it.  The producers at Amazon dropped the ball big time.  I have been so disappointed by this show!  The character traits that made parts of the story dark, funny, loving or awe inspiring are non-existent.  I was so looking forward to Nynaeve’s fit throwing and Mat’s humor.  It’s just not there and the other characters don’t come close to living up to the book either.

 

The wardrobe chosen for the characters is awful.  The Children of the Light are supposed to be warriors. Why are they wearing white robes and sleeveless shirts?  Why not some cool armor like we saw throughout GOT’s??     Some of them had hair cuts straight out of an old Buck Rogers movie!  I expected the Aes Sedai to look like goddesses not frumpy, overweight (sorry but i only remember one being described as overweight) “average” women.  I always pictured Lan as wearing top notch, awesome looking armor and he’s not.  The book portrays Lan as a straight up bad dude, it leaves no doubt about it! Sulky and brooding with no time to waste on the others. The Lan in the show doesn’t come close to that!  This Lan is more of a touchy feely nice guy.  I guess comparing this to GOT is asking too much but you didn’t see this kind of shoddy wardrobe there. If a character was a bad dude in the book, he was a bad dude in the show. It was a fantastical world and the GOT producers created it that way.  The WOT producers didn’t.  
 

The White Tower looks dirty and brown!  It’s supposed to be magnificent and it looks like an old building in a run down part of town.

 

Sadly, this show reminds me of the old Dungeons and Dragons movies they made back in the day with wizards in pointy hats with sun and moon symbols on their robes.  

 

These were great books with great characters that allowed readers to imagine fantastic images. The show producers apparently lack the imagination to see that.

This is just cheaply done and a big disappointment.

 

[Harad the White]

15 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

This is just cheaply done and a big disappointment.

Good rant! You got company here. Glad you liked GoT.

[Elder_Haman]

17 minutes ago, Badmaw said:

This is just cheaply done and a big disappointment.

Sorry you didn't enjoy it. 

[Badmaw]

3 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

 

But WoT is your second choice in best fantasy series of all time? Even though you thought it was cheaply done and a big disappointment?

 

Are you talking about the books or the show?

The show.  The show totally drops the ball.  The books are very well done and a favorite of mine.  This show is just a let down.

[Badmaw]

2 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Well, be advised that you should brind some constructive criticism and maybe some changes to what you would have changed if you want any traction here. Just fair warning.

I’m not a movie producer or a writer.  I’m just a fan.  I posted my criticism.  Whether it’s taken as constructive or not is not up to me.  Put some effort into theWheel of Time world.  For example: the Children of the Light are warriors.  They’re out and about battling the Aes Sedai yet their wearing nothing that indicates they are warriors AND their white clothes are perfectly clean.  Not realistic and it doesn’t portray them as what they actually are.  They look like a group of 70’s disco patrons.  

[Mailman]

Does no one find it completely unbelievable that Moiraine who has been looking for the DR for 20 years and finally thinks she has found him among 5 people makes zero effort to locate 4 of them for over a month instead opting for a funeral ride to Tar Valon, Potentially leaving the most important person to be born in 3000 years and the key to the world surviving to be hunted by fades, trollocs and any other dangers.

 

Add to that the incredible danger of just hoping that the 3 potential male channelers  are not discovered and gentled when they wander into Tar Valon

 

Its totally unbelievable crap.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mailman

[Skipp]

35 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Does no one find it completely unbelievable that Moiraine who has been looking for the DR for 20 years and finally thinks she has found him among 5 people makes zero effort to locate 4 of them for over a month instead opting for a funeral ride to Tar Valon, Potentially leaving the most important person to be born in 3000 years and the key to the world surviving to be hunted by fades, trollocs and any other dangers.

 

Add to that the incredible danger of just hoping that the 3 potential male channelers  are not discovered and gentled when they wander into Tar Valon

 

Its totally unbelievable crap.

 

I don't find that unbelievable.  According to the Amazon timeline Moiraine was out for a couple of days before she was healed.  Since in this version she didn't have the means to track them and their only meet up point was Tar'valon it certainly makes sense to meet them there.  There was A LOT of country to search and no guarantee you were ahead of them or behind them.  It took them over a month of traveling to reach TV.  it would have taken many more months to Cover all that ground they could have potentially been in.

 

And why would bringing the 3 lads into TV be any more dangerous than in the books?  The original plan in the books was to head to Camylen and then proceed to TV.  Honestly it would have been more suspicious to anyone looking if Moiraine was seen entering with 3 male youths.

[Mailman]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

I don't find that unbelievable.  According to the Amazon timeline Moiraine was out for a couple of days before she was healed.  Since in this version she didn't have the means to track them and their only meet up point was Tar'valon it certainly makes sense to meet them there.  There was A LOT of country to search and no guarantee you were ahead of them or behind them.  It took them over a month of traveling to reach TV.  it would have taken many more months to Cover all that ground they could have potentially been in.

 

And why would bringing the 3 lads into TV be any more dangerous than in the books?  The original plan in the books was to head to Camylen and then proceed to TV.  Honestly it would have been more suspicious to anyone looking if Moiraine was seen entering with 3 male youths.

They had horses the 4 who fled Shadar Logoth did not, Moiraine and Lan could have returned to the outskirts of Shadar Logoth and started tracking them hell even Nynvaeve could have helped track them. There are natural points where the 4 could have been forced to go like Whitebridge in the books that Moiraine could have gone to look.

 

In the books in the original plan Moiraine would have been with them when they arrived in Tar Valon not just arriving piecemeal with the potential for discovery. I imagine book Moiraine would have been incredibly nervous about the DR reaching Tar Valon without her protection, as she was when she found out that Rand had met Elaidia in Camelyn. TV show Moiraine does not seem to care at all.

 

It just makes no sense it is beyond stupid that she made no attempt to find them, if she exhausted all other attempts to locate them she could have returned to Tar Valon as a last resort but to just go on a funeral ride with no effort is insane.

[Skipp]

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

They had horses the 4 who fled Shadar Logoth did not, Moiraine and Lan could have returned to the outskirts of Shadar Logoth and started tracking them hell even Nynvaeve could have helped track them. There are natural points where the 4 could have been forced to go like Whitebridge in the books that Moiraine could have gone to look.

 

 Except that Lan did not know where they exited the city and it is a BIG city.  Considering Rand and Mat immediately crossed the river good luck finding any tracks from that.  And the longer they didn't go back to SL the less tracks there would have been from Perrin and Egwene. 

 

Remember that Nynaeve set out after the group likely not much after they left.  From her flashback escape it was clearly still night when she was safe.  She Likely would have been back in the Village no more than a couple of hours after Lan and Moiraine left and would have likely set out the day after at the latest.

[Mailman]

7 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 Except that Lan did not know where they exited the city and it is a BIG city.  Considering Rand and Mat immediately crossed the river good luck finding any tracks from that.  And the longer they didn't go back to SL the less tracks there would have been from Perrin and Egwene. 

 

Remember that Nynaeve set out after the group likely not much after they left.  From her flashback escape it was clearly still night when she was safe.  She Likely would have been back in the Village no more than a couple of hours after Lan and Moiraine left and would have likely set out the day after at the latest.

Thats foolish she would have at least made the effort the city may be large but the number of exits are not, is it not meant to be the city without a gate as Lan stated. you are realistically only checking the holes in the wall (gates if there are any) and barring that the other side of the river that was on the wall side not such a massive undertaking after all. 

[flinn]

 Considering they were being chased by a fist of trollocs, tracking them to shadar logoth would be easy for anyone. From there, finding Lan might be difficult, but within Nynaeve's skill set. Sneaking up to him with a dagger is where it leaves the plane of reality. She wouldnt be able to sneak up on Lan in his sleep, much less wide awake.

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Thats foolish she would have at least made the effort the city may be large but the number of exits are not, is it not meant to be the city without a gate as Lan stated. you are realistically only checking the holes in the wall (gates if there are any) and barring that the other side of the river that was on the wall side not such a massive undertaking after all. 

Except that one of the groups exit was litterally jumping from the wall.  That makes the entire circumference as exit points.

[Mailman]

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Except that one of the groups exit was litterally jumping from the wall.  That makes the entire circumference as exit points.

So you are saying the river runs the entire way around the entire wall what rubbish. You cant jump from the wall onto the ground.

 

It still leaves 2 potential DRs leaving by a ground exit that was not the one they left by.

 

So again all you have to do is ride the perimeter of the wall looking for exits and checking for tracks at those exits. Then you find where the wall runs right alongside the river and you can check the opposite bank for tracks.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mailman

[ArrylT]

I took it to understand that Lans focus was on Moiraine - only proper as her warder - so, to me at least, he did little to no tracking effort of the other parties prior to being surprised by Nynaeve.   

 

I would have liked the coin aspect from the books added - but I can see how that would not have worked based on how Episodes 3 & 4 went.    

[Skipp]

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

So you are saying the river runs the entire way around the entire wall what rubbish. You cant jump from the wall onto the ground.

 

It still leaves 2 potential DRs leaving by a ground exit that was not the one they left by.

 

So again all you have to do is ride the perimeter of the wall looking for exits and checking for tracks at those exits. Then you find where the wall runs right alongside the river and you can check the opposite bank for tracks.

I didn't say the river circled the entire wall but I can see why my statement could be taken as such.  But we do know that both groups escaped by getting into the river.  Admittedly Egwene and Perrin found the shore quickly but their tracks wouldn't be directly next to the wall.  It is still a very large area to begin searching potentially days after they were there.  Not saying they couldn't have addressed this in the show but to believe it would have been a simple matter to track them is nonsense.

[flinn]

 Unless Lan left a dying Morainne laying alone to go back to brush their horse tracks from fleeing SL, then it isnt unbelievable at all that she was able to track them to where they were.

[Mailman]

13 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I didn't say the river circled the entire wall but I can see why my statement could be taken as such.  But we do know that both groups escaped by getting into the river.  Admittedly Egwene and Perrin found the shore quickly but their tracks wouldn't be directly next to the wall.  It is still a very large area to begin searching potentially days after they were there.  Not saying they couldn't have addressed this in the show but to believe it would have been a simple matter to track them is nonsense.

Look what you are saying still makes no sense. Moiraine and Lan had no idea how they exited the city if in fact they did. If that was the only ground entrance to the city they know they did not come out that way and its easy to check as well. From there the only other way woould be to jump into the river which gives you easy places to start checking for tracks. 

 

If that is unsuccessful you still have the option of trying for a point like a Whitebridge that is a convergence point and if that is not available it would be far better to be riding to Tar Valon from the most likely point the 4 started from than not as it gives you a greater chance of picking up there trail again from either luck tracks or someone that might have seen them. 

 

This is not saying that any of these are sure ways of finding them but its got a 100% more chance than a funeral procession to Tar Valon chances.

[Skipp]

36 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Look what you are saying still makes no sense. Moiraine and Lan had no idea how they exited the city if in fact they did. If that was the only ground entrance to the city they know they did not come out that way and its easy to check as well. From there the only other way woould be to jump into the river which gives you easy places to start checking for tracks. 

 

If that is unsuccessful you still have the option of trying for a point like a Whitebridge that is a convergence point and if that is not available it would be far better to be riding to Tar Valon from the most likely point the 4 started from than not as it gives you a greater chance of picking up there trail again from either luck tracks or someone that might have seen them. 

 

This is not saying that any of these are sure ways of finding them but its got a 100% more chance than a funeral procession to Tar Valon chances.

It is a fairly large river and since we know both P/E and R/M groups crossed it look at the difference in their journeys.  Yes, Moiraine and Lan could have headed to whitebridge to go look but since we know neither of the groups went there that would have been fruitless.  We do know that they set path was TV and each group knew the other would head in that direction. 

 

I certainly think it makes more sense to head where you know the other party is heading rather than randomly searching the wilderness for them.  Lan and Moiraine could have made a better decision had she not been injured and required immediate help.  But unfortunately that wound caused them to travel in the wrong direction for half of a day and then probably at least a day of recovery.

 

But ultimately we both see this situation different so we can leave it to agree to disagree.

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

It is a fairly large river and since we know both P/E and R/M groups crossed it look at the difference in their journeys.  Yes, Moiraine and Lan could have headed to whitebridge to go look but since we know neither of the groups went there that would have been fruitless.  We do know that they set path was TV and each group knew the other would head in that direction. 

 

I certainly think it makes more sense to head where you know the other party is heading rather than randomly searching the wilderness for them.  Lan and Moiraine could have made a better decision had she not been injured and required immediate help.  But unfortunately that wound caused them to travel in the wrong direction for half of a day and then probably at least a day of recovery.

 

But ultimately we both see this situation different so we can leave it to agree to disagree.

Its not about seeing the situation differently, your interpretation has no rational thought behind it.

 

What purpose did Moiraine and Lan achieve by riding with the Gentled false dragon and the aes sedai. Why could she not ride away after the battle and be doing something more important or if her only plan was to wait in Tar Valon why wait why not ride in haste and get there faster then a cart carrying a cage.

 

What if whoever the DR is broke their ankle in the escape from Shadar Logoth it could take months for them to make it to Tar Valon how long is Moiraine going to wait there for them. The longer she waits to find them the harder it is to find them and the longer the shadow has to take them.

 

The worst thing about the TV show IMHO is the reduction in Moiraine. The idea that she takes a funeral parade to Tar Valon while leaving the potential DR to be hunted and make his own way over a month is just insane.

 

Moiraine of the books is a driven crafty intelligent woman with a absolute determination to find and protect the DR. In the show she was obvious in the first episode injured and useless until the 4th episode and then ignores the DR and takes a ride with Aes Sedai in the 5th before attending a funeral for a fallen warder who has no impact on the story at all.

 

Just a disgrace. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mailman

[DermidAjala]

One random thing that hit me today. Have they at all mentioned the longer lifespan of people who can channel? I wonder when that will come up. I suppose they could skip it entirely.

[Gothic Flame]

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

Moiraine of the books is a driven crafty intelligent woman with a absolute determination to find and protect the DR. In the show she was obvious in the first episode injured and useless until the 4th episode and then ignores the DR and takes a ride with Aes Sedai in the 5th before attending a funeral for a fallen warder who has no impact on the story at all.

Sounds as if they've thrown away the very reason why the Blue Ajah exists. Fiercely goal-driven to their respective cause has been their hallmark. What is it now I should wonder...