Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

In the books, Lan is so perfectly described by his Aiel title - Aan'Allein, the man alone. In the show he's portrayed as just 'one of the lads' around the campfire with the other warders. The other characters aren't remotely intimidated by him. There's no sense in any character's interactions with him that they have any respect for him or his skills.

The thing is, the Aiel call him that in reverence to Malkier and from their experience with him in the Aiel war where he wasn't a Warder.

As a Warder, to some extent, he IS one of the lads around the campfire.  Sure he's a better swordsman than Stepin, but I get the feeling Stepin is probably a better rider.  This take on Ivhon is a better archer.  They're all ridiculously well trained and competent.

You can't put someone in a room of contemporaries and expect them to shine.  Reminds me of the hilarity of Vault 76 in Fallout (Where every member of the Vault was an overachiever of one form or another).  Or for a WoT comparinson; Spoiler about a main character below.

Spoiler

Mat is going to be the best military mind of his age, but if you had put him in a room with Agelmar, Bashere, Bryne and Ituralde, he'd be one of the boys, even if he's slightly ahead of them

 

[MasterAblar]

Honestly I really don't care about what he looks like fighting. Not like I'd have any idea what he should look like doing that anyway. It's outside of that that there's something missing so far, in his interactions with other characters amongst other things. Lan can be quite harsh and hard on others, but at the same time earnest and true. He feels too nice in a way, like there isn't enough distance between him and the two river bumpkins, but on the other hand he barely interacts with them.

 

I feel like his character was pretty hard hit with only a single episode between Winternight and Shadar Logoth. Him and Rand but there are other reasons for Rand.

[Tim]

Lan was kind of boring in the first book.

 

He was immediately better from chapter one of TGH - in general there was a massive jump in the quality of RJ's writing from that point, but Lan was a clear beneficiary given he is so prominent in the first few chapters. That can in part be attributed to him having formed more of a bond with Rand, but I also think that in between the books RJ really sharpened his sense of who Lan was as a character.

 

The complaint about Lan seeming so comfortable and not-apart around other warders is interesting: I agree with it to the extent that it would not have been how I would have imagined Lan interacting with other warders, but on the other hand I'm struggling to recall any scenes prior to Moiraine's departure where we did see him interact (or, more to the point, not interact) with other warders in any substantive way? The only time I can think of offhand is when Moiraine and Lan stay with Vandene and Adelas, and even then there's not enough shown to draw conclusions I think?

 

Notionally, the idea that he would be more relaxed around other warders is not obviously inconsistent with the books. It feels different to his book-character, definitely, but it doesn't seem to me like a change that clearly contradicts the books.

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, Tim said:

The complaint about Lan seeming so comfortable and not-apart around other warders is interesting: I agree with it to the extent that it would not have been how I would have imagined Lan interacting with other warders, but on the other hand I'm struggling to recall any scenes prior to Moiraine's departure where we did see him interact (or, more to the point, not interact) with other warders in any substantive way? The only time I can think of offhand is when Moiraine and Lan stay with Vandene and Adelas, and even then there's not enough shown to draw conclusions I think?

 

You are correct and he got along very well with Jaem and was a "Bad influence" on him, reminding him of being a swordsman.

He and Jaem together also got along with Elayne's warder and were all fairly chummy once that part of the plot starts going too.  It's in fact a point that while various sisters are completely unsure how to respond to Elayne's Warder, Lan, Jaem and the others just accept them as one of the group no questions.

[RhienneAgain]

19 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The thing is, the Aiel call him that in reverence to Malkier and from their experience with him in the Aiel war where he wasn't a Warder.

As a Warder, to some extent, he IS one of the lads around the campfire.  Sure he's a better swordsman than Stepin, but I get the feeling Stepin is probably a better rider.  This take on Ivhon is a better archer.  They're all ridiculously well trained and competent.

You can't put someone in a room of contemporaries and expect them to shine.  Reminds me of the hilarity of Vault 76 in Fallout (Where every member of the Vault was an overachiever of one form or another).  Or for a WoT comparinson; Spoiler about a main character below.

  Hide contents

Mat is going to be the best military mind of his age, but if you had put him in a room with Agelmar, Bashere, Bryne and Ituralde, he'd be one of the boys, even if he's slightly ahead of them

 

Hmm, that's not really what I meant by the 'one of the lads' comment. I don't expect Lan to stand out that much from the other Warders in terms of skill at being a Warder in any obvious way. It's more the character just seems totally different to book Lan. 

 

I meant that Lan has an aloofness and detachment from other characters (apart from Moiraine). That's missing in the show. Seeing him having a fun evening round the campfire laughing and joking with the othe Warders doesn't seem true to his character to me. Moiraine describes Lan's character as thinking "he was secure, imprisoned in his fortress by fate and his own wishes,." He doesn't come across to me in the show like that at all. That sense of loss, gravity, and alone-ness is not captured at all.

 

Similarly, I agree that it's a good idea to show a more gradual development of Lan's and Nynaeve's relationship but I don't think the material they've added is true to character either. At no point in their relationship would Nynaeve ever tell Lan he came across as a lapdog (nor would anyone else!), and certainly not at this stage.

Edited December 2, 2021 by RhienneAgain

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, RhienneAgain said:

I meant that Lan has an aloofness and detachment from other characters (apart from Moiraine). That's missing in the show. Seeing him having a fun evening round the campfire laughing and joking with the othe Warders doesn't seem true to his character to me. Moiraine describes Lan's character as thinking "he was secure, imprisoned in his fortress by fate and his own wishes, but slowly, patiently, the creepers were tearing down the walls to bare the man within." He doesn't come across to me in the show like that at all.

We don't see details, but when he meets up with Jaem (Another Warder) in book 2 it's very like him and Stepin.  He also seems to get along well with Elayne's Warder.

[Mailman]

14 hours ago, dwn said:

 

Sure it's exaggerated for the show, but Nynaeve does sneak up on him and Moiraine in the books after they flee Shadar Logoth. She's also shown to be skilled at tracking when scouting the area before they use the Bowl of the Winds.

 

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I feel like it's not as much of an issue as people think.

Look at the book scene again.  Nynaeve creeps up on them and eavesdrops on their conversation for a while before Moraine senses the spark in her and calls her out.  Lan is startled at this and never noticed she was there.

In the show Moraine is injured and down and not there to point out Nynaeve.  

Its a massive difference standing behind a tree just within hearing range and being able to place a weapon at his throat without his knowledge

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

Yeah it looks a little silly but it has historic basis.  Check out Lars Anderson on youtube as he has several videos on both the speed shooting and short distance shooting.

Or in fantasy literature "The belly of the bow" by KJ Parker has several descriptions of a top grade archer using bows of this type (short bow with a high draw strength) in close range combat.  Only read the full book if you have a very strong stomach however. 

[Mailman]

I'm not sure what they where thinking when they did that"sparring" session with the warders seeing Lan throw his sword into the air was terrible

Edited December 3, 2021 by Mailman

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

So yeah, Lan has had a year to learn something that takes 2 or 3 and is even harder if you're trying to make it look flashy.

But Lan was never about flashy. 

Some of the descriptions from the dreaded books were based upon actual kata forms. "River undercuts the bank" is drop to knee, pivot and swords swings to the side...remembered this in Kill Bill when the Bride took the legs from the lieutenant of the Crazy 88. 

[Skipp]

6 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

But Lan was never about flashy. 

Some of the descriptions from the dreaded books were based upon actual kata forms. "River undercuts the bank" is drop to knee, pivot and swords swings to the side...remembered this in Kill Bill when the Bride took the legs from the lieutenant of the Crazy 88. 

I believe he was referring to flashy as "Screen swordsmanship" after saying actual master swordsmanship is fairly bland to watch.

[Mailman]

32 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I believe he was referring to flashy as "Screen swordsmanship" after saying actual master swordsmanship is fairly bland to watch.

Because of using the Flame and Void or the Oneness the fights should flow more than what is practical in the reality of actual master swordsmanship. I believe they would be more similar to the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel than anything else i can think of.

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

Because of using the Flame and Void or the Oneness the fights should flow more than what is practical in the reality of actual master swordsmanship. I believe they would be more similar to the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel than anything else i can think of.

That's just it, the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel is flashy nonsense.  All the Prequel Lightsabre fights are.  Rewatch Duel of Fates.  Obi-Wan and Maul die inside of a minute if you don't deliberately ignore openings to be flashy.

Using the Flame and the Void is a real thing (It's not been called that prior to WoT to my knowledge but the idea of emptying your mind is not new).  An actual fight between master swordsmen usually involves lack of motion until someone's dead all of a sudden.  

 

2 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

But Lan was never about flashy. 

Some of the descriptions from the dreaded books were based upon actual kata forms. "River undercuts the bank" is drop to knee, pivot and swords swings to the side...remembered this in Kill Bill when the Bride took the legs from the lieutenant of the Crazy 88. 

Yeah, Kill Bill flashes it up, it's not pure kenjutsu.  Also, you can make a proper form sound poetic and cool on page.  In practice it's boring.  It's like comparing Professional Wrestling to an MMA fight.  One has pomp and theatrics and big leaps and swings.  MMA has some feints then it goes to the ground and then it's two people who half the time look like they're just laying their hugging unless you know what you're watching.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

17 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

An actual fight between master swordsmen usually involves lack of motion until someone's dead all of a sudden.  

more like the depiction in "the last samurai"

 

[Hobo]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

There were lots of little things they could have done with Lan, the warders, and Tam that would have made them seem more capable and competent.  In some scenes they almost seemed to undercut the men's abilities to accentuate a female.  Not sure if that was intentional or just accidental in writing.  I see that as a big problem as we move more into characters arcs.  

I also agree, i feel like they needed way more than 8 episodes. 

 

Also, just started ep 5. What the fuck. What the actual fuck. What did they do to my boy Loial??!?

[Hobo]

Also what the fuck?! No Elayne?! No Elaida?! No Elyas?!?

 

I have been wondering hey they are going to deal with perrins wolf communication as its all mental

[Skipp]

Just now, Hobo said:

Also what the fuck?! No Elayne?! No Elaida?! No Elyas?!?

 

I have been wondering hey they are going to deal with perrins wolf communication as its all mental

Elayne has been cast for season 2, Elyas is in season 2 but no casting leaked year.  Elaida may be in season two but I am less sure of that today than I was yesterday.  It seems they might combine her into Liandrins story.

 

But a couple of weeks ago 2 actors were announced for season two but not who they were playing.  The first everyone assumed was Verin and the 2nd people thought it was Elaida or Lanfear.  People discounted the idea that it was lanfear as the production has been very hush hush about the forsaken.

[Mailman]

Episode 5 was utter garbage

 

Loial WTF  $10M a episode for that.

Horrendous info dumps through the whole episode 

Moiraine makes no effort for over a month to find the Emond Fielders just hopes they will stumble into Tar Valon

Every conversation with Liandrin is just super weird.

Whitecloaks WTF is going on there apparently Valda seems to think he is invincible.

 

Just terrible from any view.

 

[Mailman]

5 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

That's just it, the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel is flashy nonsense.  All the Prequel Lightsabre fights are.  Rewatch Duel of Fates.  Obi-Wan and Maul die inside of a minute if you don't deliberately ignore openings to be flashy.

Using the Flame and the Void is a real thing (It's not been called that prior to WoT to my knowledge but the idea of emptying your mind is not new).  An actual fight between master swordsmen usually involves lack of motion until someone's dead all of a sudden.  

 

I doubt that the Oneness described in the books is the same as simply emptying your mind. Theres been a couple of analysis videos done of Anakin/Obi-Wan and they are not considered atrocious like the Sequel fights. I was not saying that its realistic but that would be boring on screen as well in book form.  

[Meskell]

Lan screaming, tearing his shirt open to show his nipples and just generally being a 24/7 emotional wreck is a pretty big problem and ruins the point of Nynaeve being the one to finally pull down the walls he has built following the trauma of losing an entire nation. 
 

The other problem with Lan, as mentioned by someone else, is that he is possibly the single most incompetent character in the whole show up to now. I have zero faith in show Lan being able to hold off Trolloc hoards or train Rand to be a blademaster. 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Meskell said:

Lan screaming, tearing his shirt open to show his nipples

That was part of the funeral tradition. Lan was the "lead mourner". He expressed everyone's emotion at once. The shirt rip might have been a symbolic gesture to show his and everyone else's grief. 

 

Edit. I didn't manage to see his nipples. Maybe I should go through it frame by frame but tbh I don't care. Humans have nipples.

Edited December 3, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[Meskell]

13 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That was part of the funeral tradition. Lan was the "lead mourner". He expressed everyone's emotion at once. The shirt rip might have been a symbolic gesture to show his and everyone else's grief. 

 

Edit. I didn't manage to see his nipples. Maybe I should go through it frame by frame but tbh I don't care. Humans have nipples.

I’m not interested in him being the lead mourner. It is just another hit in the difference between book and tv Lan, which completely negates Nynaeve being the one to break his emotional block n

[Arthellion]

So I love the show, but merely rate it good. And part of that is the content Rafe is choosing to focus on. That said there are a couple things he could’ve done to make this great tier.

 

-Cold open of episode 1: Replace with episode 4s rather than the red chase.

 

-Episofe 4 rather than have fade show up, spend time with Rand/Mat/Thom on the road and working. Have more time pass.

 

-Episode 5: beginning should be fade fight. Reduce the stepin scenes.

 

My main issue with the show is I feel Rafe consistently focuses on the wrong things. 
 

Still, 8/10 atm and loving the show but the above is my issue.

[Scarloc99]

12 hours ago, Tim said:

Lan was kind of boring in the first book.

 

He was immediately better from chapter one of TGH - in general there was a massive jump in the quality of RJ's writing from that point, but Lan was a clear beneficiary given he is so prominent in the first few chapters. That can in part be attributed to him having formed more of a bond with Rand, but I also think that in between the books RJ really sharpened his sense of who Lan was as a character.

 

The complaint about Lan seeming so comfortable and not-apart around other warders is interesting: I agree with it to the extent that it would not have been how I would have imagined Lan interacting with other warders, but on the other hand I'm struggling to recall any scenes prior to Moiraine's departure where we did see him interact (or, more to the point, not interact) with other warders in any substantive way? The only time I can think of offhand is when Moiraine and Lan stay with Vandene and Adelas, and even then there's not enough shown to draw conclusions I think?

 

Notionally, the idea that he would be more relaxed around other warders is not obviously inconsistent with the books. It feels different to his book-character, definitely, but it doesn't seem to me like a change that clearly contradicts the books.

Lan in the books is more Arragorn then Arragorn is in the LOTR, certainly at the start. 

As time progresses I get the sense Robert Jordan, as all authors do, understood his character a bit more and decided to give him a bit of a gradual overhaul. 

[fra85uk]

My updated ratings so far:

 

Ep1 4.5

Ep2 6-

Ep3 6.5

Ep4 5

Ep5 7.5 but just one watch so i think on rewatch it will go to 8

Edited December 3, 2021 by fra85uk