Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Guest Cranglevoid]

Isn't it amazing how you can claim there are no contradictions by constantly just making up new stuff in your head?

 

"How come Egwaine could heal Nynaeve from the brink of death with no training? That seems a bit contradictory to how the magic is supposed to work."

 

"NUH-UH! Perhaps there's a really old aes sedai who has constructed a vast underground network of tunnels and who is constantly following Egwaine around to heal stuff when needed. You don't know! You don't know anything! Everything makes sense and is not contradictory if I can make up an excuse for it! WAFO! WAFOOOOO!!!"

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

Isn't it amazing how you can claim there are no contradictions by constantly just making up new stuff in your head?

 

It's as if we have brains to take the info available and understand things.  But I don't make things up, I'm using what the show gives us or basic understanding the world in all cases.  But again, please ignore debating the points to attack me, it definitely helps your argument.

 

5 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

"How come Egwaine could heal Nynaeve from the brink of death with no training? That seems a bit contradictory to how the magic is supposed to work."

 

Unsure why we keep using the word contradiction in place of "Things I don't like or understand."  For the record, I'm not fond of Egwene's apparent healing, but I also don't know what happened and so am waiting to find out.  Similarly I didn't like Rand's teleporting all over the place in EotW, but waited and found out about traveling four books later.  It's as if season 1 of 8 doesn't explain everything.

And then you go into nonsense insults and hyperbole again.  Seriously, you've said nothing to any point I've made.  If you don't want to be part of the conversation, why post?
 

 

[VooDooNut]

33 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

WAFO! WAFOOOOO!!!

Sounds like a solid plan to me!

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  
If she knew Nynaeve's strength or Egwenes and either of them were capable of channeling, sure.  But Nynaeve was MIA at that point and Egwene hadn't even gottern her basic little crash course yet.  

Egwene has no strength in the power yet

She channeled for the first time less than a month ago and just days before was not able to singe Valdas cloak with a fireball.

Stop claiming she has massive strength in the power its not true

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Mailman said:

Egwene has no strength in the power yet

She channeled for the first time less than a month ago and just days before was not able to singe Valdas cloak with a fireball.

Stop claiming she has massive strength in the power its not true

It clearly shows.  The size and number of flows touching a person are clear with women throughout the season.

Specifically when the circle forms, Amalisa has 3 small threads, the two nameless women each have one small thread.  Egwene has 3 larger threads and Nynaeve as 4-5.   

Her ability to accurately weave fire is not the same as her strength.

[Cauthonfan4]

22 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

We're dealing with a world with actual magic, and thus a tool to justify literally anything (especially if you start to ignore the rules of the magic in question)

This is a huge problem for me.

A magic system without any rules and that just exists and anyone can do anything with seems a lot like plot armor or a plot device. 

 

The shows magic so far doesn't appear to have ANY RULES and exists solely to move ghe plot forward by being whatever the writers need it to be 

 

It's one of the huge reasons they should have just written their own show because this clearly isn't wheel of time. Oh they have names and places but that's it.

 

The cultures? The world building? The magic system? It's gone. 

 

Is the show completely terrible? No. The acting was solid and episode 4 was pretty good. But when the expectation (set by Amazon) was the next game of thrones, they have so far missed the mark by a wide margin.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[notpropaganda73]

13 hours ago, Mirefox said:

- We are supposed to accept that Nyn is more powerful than any Aes Sedai but because she isn’t trained she can’t use her powers yet unless under extreme duress or emotion?  Fine.  So why when her small village is being slaughtered by an army of unknown monsters could she do nothing?  Not emotional enough?

 

This is why Nynaeve really should have suffered her block in episode 8, because Nynaeve's block (to me) was always about her being angry, not emotional. In the show they seemed to be going that way too, as she screams in anger in episode 4 and has a pissed off look in ep 7 vs Machin Shin. Having a block in episode 8 would have called back to episode 1 where she wasn't able to channel to save the old man, as she was scared - not angry. Her walking out and being able to open herself to be linked, and then just standing there to be used as a conduit, meant there was no actual arc to her season. Imagine a situation where they don't actually change anything (not my first choice!) but Amalisa is shouting at Nynaeve to open herself and she can't, and she watches in horror as the Trollocs approach. Maybe as a result of Amalisa being distracted trying to get her to open up, someone dies/the Trollocs break through. *Something* that she feels responsible for because she couldn't control her channeling. 

 

It's really disappointing but I am still optimistic that what they were doing in the first 6 episodes was solid enough that we will get a good S2. I know there are many that dislike the show as a whole though, this is just my POV - episode 8 was awful but I really enjoyed everything up to that. I really think episode 8 suffered from all of the COVID nonsense and Mat not being there, and unfortunately they were not good enough as writers to adjust their initial plans to still make a great finale. At least that's what I think happened.

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

It clearly shows.  The size and number of flows touching a person are clear with women throughout the season.

Specifically when the circle forms, Amalisa has 3 small threads, the two nameless women each have one small thread.  Egwene has 3 larger threads and Nynaeve as 4-5.   

Her ability to accurately weave fire is not the same as her strength.

So her power which you are claiming to be a significant portion of that used to destroy a trolloc army of 10,000 to 20,000 is enough for that but not enough to even singe Valda.

 

What you are saying makes no sense.

[Gothic Flame]

3 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

Isn't it amazing how you can claim there are no contradictions by constantly just making up new stuff in your head?

That's why I don't bother with certain posts. Whenever someone has his/her own narrative s/he is always right...there's just no argument that can be made. And should the show gets canceled, as I believe it will, it's a coin flip that you'll see posted by the person in full contradiction; "See? I was right."

[Cauthonfan4]

I believe one of the biggest failings by the writers is having EF/TR be more worldly and subsequent cut training scenes while fleeing from the trollocs as well as mat and rand learning from Thom.

 

Both of these changes have had a net result in lowering the development of our 5 main characters.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Lethira the second]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I believe one of the biggest failings by the writers is having EF/TR be more worldly and subsequent cut training scenes while fleeing from the trollocs as well as mat and rand learning from Thom.

 

Both of these changes have had a net result in lowering the development of our 5 main characters.

Brandon Sanderson said they felt that particular 'coming of age' story -for want of a better phrase had been overdone.  I agree with you, in aging everyone up they've lost something that was central to the story.

[Cauthonfan4]

7 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Brandon Sanderson said they felt that particular 'coming of age' story -for want of a better phrase had been overdone

Maybe, but they cut so much potential development with axing all 3 that we saw no real personal growth from most of them. Nynaeve obviously got lots of personal story and badass moments but her character hasn't really changed beyond her relationship with Lan. The rest...well its even worse. 

 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

14 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Ahh….But why not keep such around to form circles? I mean they could have higher numbers to boost their ranks and not a force anywhere could stand against them…..

That is part of the Aes Sedai arrogance that is going to be shown more and more, by my guess anyway. We will be shown how stupid and prideful they are. They go around saying men did all this bad, but then they will do it too, and it will take our EF5 to highlight the hypocrisy and reset the balance. I believe that's where the show is going.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

14 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Conceit that they're not full Aes Sedai?  Same reason as in the books.
 

 

Sorry, I wasn't aware I wasn't forwarding a direct opinion.  Rand is stronger than Nynaeve+Egwene.  What he did may have been a similar level of total destruction but the control and precision shows significantly more power.

Also, he doesn't almost burn out and die in the process. They were linked and almost died. He will do it on his own and just be like "no problem".

[EmreY]

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

But the person I'm debating with is comparing Ep 8 to what Rand does at the Manor or Maradon.  The argument being that it cheapens what Rand did, where as my argument is that Rand is showing ridiculous levels of control and power at those points.

 

Indeed.  

 

Quote

TSR.7:

Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many ways, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have been weaving a dozen. He did not even look tired, yet exertion with the Power took energy.

without an angreal, and also, of course, the better-known:

 

Quote

ToM.32:

 

Ituralde POV: "He was like an entire army of channelers."

Naeff: "I've never seen so many weaves at once,"

with one (I think, though how was he holding it?), non-stop for over an hour, though that does tire him out.

 

Lord Rand, dextrous is he, the Dragon Reborn!  Strong as ten regular channellers, definitely.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by EmreY

[Weird_Old_Lady]

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

I wasn't putting it out as a perfectly reasonable power comparison.

The argument made was that it was completely over the top to have five linked women which included Nynaeve and Egwene devastate at max 10k trollocs.  When I pointed out that it was just raw lightning someone else insisted it was wrong because it approached Rand.  I pointed out that Rand shows an astronomically higher level of control and power despite also killing only 10k trollocs in a given scene.

 

 

No, I genuinely thought flat out saying One person's show of power was far more complicated and difficult to do than another's flat out said I thought one person was stronger.  I flat out said what Rand did was harder to do than what Amalisa with her circle did.  There was no ambiguity.  It wasn't until you said I was being vague that it even occurred to me to think someone read "What Rand did is more complex and harder than what Amalisa did" as something other than "Rand is stronger."

 

  

Who said it missed no trollocs?  It broke their line, tons could have retreated.   All we know is it killed a ton and stopped the attack.

Who said it hit no bystanders, I wouldn't be surprised if it killed anyone who was still alive in the gap.  Avoiding the city is broad control of aiming it forward, not the same as actually directing it at targets.  The were out in front of the city and then built the storm in front of them.
 

 

When being driven by Callandor and just raining lightning he does.  But the person I'm debating with is comparing Ep 8 to what Rand does at the Manor or Maradon.  The argument being that it cheapens what Rand did, where as my argument is that Rand is showing ridiculous levels of control and power at those points.

 

  

If she knew Nynaeve's strength or Egwenes and either of them were capable of channeling, sure.  But Nynaeve was MIA at that point and Egwene hadn't even gottern her basic little crash course yet.  

Also Moiraine is a full Aes Sedai with the Oaths and knowing she may have to answer for it in the Tower. I don't think Amalisa considered those things at all.

[Gothic Flame]

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Lord Rand, dextrous is he, Rand al'Thor!  Strong as ten regular channellers, definitely.

At that point Rand had fully merged with his past self; Lews Therin Telamon.

[MasterAblar]

4 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

This is why Nynaeve really should have suffered her block in episode 8, because Nynaeve's block (to me) was always about her being angry, not emotional. In the show they seemed to be going that way too, as she screams in anger in episode 4 and has a pissed off look in ep 7 vs Machin Shin. Having a block in episode 8 would have called back to episode 1 where she wasn't able to channel to save the old man, as she was scared - not angry. Her walking out and being able to open herself to be linked, and then just standing there to be used as a conduit, meant there was no actual arc to her season. Imagine a situation where they don't actually change anything (not my first choice!) but Amalisa is shouting at Nynaeve to open herself and she can't, and she watches in horror as the Trollocs approach. Maybe as a result of Amalisa being distracted trying to get her to open up, someone dies/the Trollocs break through. *Something* that she feels responsible for because she couldn't control her channeling. 

 

It's really disappointing but I am still optimistic that what they were doing in the first 6 episodes was solid enough that we will get a good S2. I know there are many that dislike the show as a whole though, this is just my POV - episode 8 was awful but I really enjoyed everything up to that. I really think episode 8 suffered from all of the COVID nonsense and Mat not being there, and unfortunately they were not good enough as writers to adjust their initial plans to still make a great finale. At least that's what I think happened.

 

I'm guessing that the source of Nyneave's block will be ptsd from her near death in episode 8. Which to be fair I would quite like since it gives a very clear and real explanation to her inability to open up to saidar. The last time she opened up, that happened.

 

I like her block in the books but the whole anger was always a bit weird to me with regards to saidar. Why would being angry help her surrender to saidar? Never made much sense to me.

[EmreY]

20 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Also, he doesn't almost burn out and die in the process. They were linked and almost died. He will do it on his own and just be like "no problem".

 

And that may be a problem.  It may be difficult to accept / seen as too easy (for those that didn't read thousands of words to get to the Battle at Maradon) that Rand has become so powerful.  Not to mention that he apparently gives off a spiritual light that causes darkfriends to claw their eyes out.

 

And for those who are upset at the level of power/control demonstrated by the five at Tarwin's Gap, I have dredged up this old thread https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59591-why-did-rj-turn-the-channeling-system-on-its-head/ where the same criticisms are levelled at RJ, eg:

 

Quote

What Rand did in Maradon was effectively 'wrong' according to everything RJ has stated that a channeler can do unaided

.

with some of the excuses being considerably more imaginative than any yet given in this thread:

 

Quote

as they gain more proficiency their physical bodies change in some way to become more suitable or less resistant to the flow of the One Power

 

Not only had the argument regarding the end of the rigorous magic system been made before, it has been levelled at the author of that system.  Time to untwist our knickers, I think.

Edited January 20, 2022 by EmreY

[Asthereal]

9 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

But the person I'm debating with is comparing Ep 8 to what Rand does at the Manor or Maradon.  The argument being that it cheapens what Rand did, where as my argument is that Rand is showing ridiculous levels of control and power at those points.

At the Manor, if I recall correctly, it was Lews Therin in control. Brilliant moment, by the way.

 

But the show shouldn't be compared to moments in book 11 anyway, I think. The show is doing so many things differently that we should allow it to build on its own choices and justify them in later seasons. I just finished the books and the show is so different I honestly have no idea where they're going with half of it.

There are strong reasons for the show to completely rewrite the ending of EotW, as it was its weakest aspect. How was Rand suddenly at the Gap? Who's that capitalized voice person? How are we first fleeing from Aginor and then fighting Ba'alzamon? I had to read the chapters three times to puzzle out who what where how, and I'm still not sure. Taking the trollock fight away from Rand and cutting out Aginor and Balthamel makes perfect sense. The execution could have used some brushing up for sure, but yeah, reshoots, COVID delays, Harris leaving...

Edited January 20, 2022 by Asthereal

[Weird_Old_Lady]

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

And that may be a problem.  It may be difficult to accept / seen as too easy (for those that didn't read thousands of words to get to the Battle at Maradon) that Rand has become so powerful.  Not to mention that he apparently gives off a spiritual light that causes darkfriends to claw their eyes out.

 

And for those who are upset at the level of power/control demonstrated by the five at Tarwin's Gap, I have dredged up this old thread https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59591-why-did-rj-turn-the-channeling-system-on-its-head/ where the same criticisms are levelled at RJ.

 

.

with the excuses being considerably more elaborate than any yet given in this thread:

 

 

Not only had the argument regarding the end of the rigorous magic system been made before, it has been levelled at the author of that system.  Time to untwist our knickers, I think.

I haven't gotten my knickers in a twist since 1995. Dark days, darker nights.

 

But yes for the love of heck can we chill the holy fridge out? 

[EmreY]

21 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

At that point Rand had fully merged with his past self; Lews Therin Telamon.

 

Which is why I gave two examples, and there's a follow-on comment a little later which highlights some of the issues that raised at the time.

 

Ten years later, we have come to accept certain things, but they seemed problematic to some at the time.

[MasterAblar]

18 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

And that may be a problem.  It may be difficult to accept / seen as too easy (for those that didn't read thousands of words to get to the Battle at Maradon) that Rand has become so powerful.  Not to mention that he apparently gives off a spiritual light that causes darkfriends to claw their eyes out.

 

And for those who are upset at the level of power/control demonstrated by the five at Tarwin's Gap, I have dredged up this old thread https://dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59591-why-did-rj-turn-the-channeling-system-on-its-head/ where the same criticisms are levelled at RJ, eg:

 

.

with some of the excuses being considerably more imaginative than any yet given in this thread:

 

 

Not only had the argument regarding the end of the rigorous magic system been made before, it has been levelled at the author of that system.  Time to untwist our knickers, I think.

 

Technically, it's almost certainly Sanderson who wrote the battle of Maradon no? So not exactly the author of the system, but still criticism of the books yes.

[Katherine]

14 hours ago, Ralph said:

4. We have Accepted leading circles of Novices in the books in Salidar iirc. 

Forgot about that! Thanks for the remind. 

 

Still trying to remember if Accepted were taught combat......  but regardless the show has  decided that an accepted has learned how to do that. 

 

Which brings me to another question....

 

If an accepted can do these things, how will the show differentiate between accepted and full aes sedai? 

[Cauthonfan4]

43 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Also, he doesn't almost burn out and die in the process. They were linked and almost died. He will do it on his own and just be like "no problem"

Linking is supposed to prevent burnout. And by then he will have had years of using magic, not a month tops.

 

39 minutes ago, EmreY said:

with one (I think, though how was he holding it?), non-stop for over an hour, though that does tire him out.

 

Lord Rand, dextrous is he, the Dragon Reborn!  Strong as ten regular channellers, definitely

So if 5 untrained channelers can wipe out an army of 5 to 20k in minutes, and rand is like an army of channelers and goes for an hour, how many trollocs is he going to have to wipe out at maradon? A million? More?

25 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

But the show shouldn't be compared to moments in book 11 anyway, I think. The show is doing so many things differently that we should allow it to build on its own choices and justify them in later seasons

Which is why I'm pointing out that it's problematic. If we've deviated this much this far and this fast, the power creep is so real that by TLB we shouldn't need armies of soldiers to fight the trollocs. 10 to 20 aes sedai at each front will be able to laugh at them. 

27 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

Taking the trollock fight away from Rand and cutting out Aginor and Balthamel makes perfect sense.

Except you know, you already spent the entire season not really giving men a chance to shine and shunting them to the side ro let women be badass. So a series that is supposed to br about balance has no such thing.

27 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

But yes for the love of heck can we chill the holy fridge out?

Depends. Can the show actually tell a good story, develop rhe characters, and somehow fix all the plot issues they have given themselves? Can they actually give men the justice they are due and not just have them around? Can the show actually flesh out its magic system or are we just going to have a Magic system without rules? Because right now the show has failed on all of these accounts.