How did the show hold up for non-fans watching with you?

[Andra]

5 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean I get why this may irritate people but, I am not really that bothered it doesn't "break? the story if the name of the town (is it a town or a village) isn't clear. 

It's not that it isn't clear.  It's that going by just the show (not the bonus materials) it IS clear. 

And the name is different from what both the books and the bonus materials say it is.

 

Also, I didn't say it irritated him.  I said it was the first thing in the show that confused him.

 

 

 

It irritates me, because it's a change that Rafe apparently made for no reason except to show that he could.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 1/28/2022 at 9:00 PM, Pembie said:

The series I find is very slow I don’t think it’s the best story ever but it has some good characters Matt is my favourite I’m trying to finish it though even though it’s kind of overwhelming at times to follow but I like to finish things

 

 

 

 

Personally I liked Eye of the World and tore through the first 4 books.  The first book was confusing at the end, but upon re-read it was quite good.  

 

If you can get your hands on the graphic novel version that may help you through book 1.  

 

Also, the audio books can be great too.

[ashi]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

It irritates me, because it's a change that Rafe apparently made for no reason except to show that he could.

It annoyed me too, more so since the name change removes one of the links that connect the world in space and time, that is that Emond's Field = the field where fell King Aemon of Manetheren, whence the name.

 

Edit: The writers refer to Emond's Field in interviews though, so the change is probably less due to Rafe and more to Amazon producers dumbing things down. Or someone will use the name in later seasons. Who knows.

Edited January 31, 2022 by ashi

[Andra]

1 hour ago, ashi said:

It annoyed me too, more so since the name change removes one of the links that connect the world in space and time, that is that Emond's Field = the field where fell King Aemon of Manetheren, whence the name.

 

Edit: The writers refer to Emond's Field in interviews though, so the change is probably less due to Rafe and more to Amazon producers dumbing things down. Or someone will use the name in later seasons. Who knows.

We can be at least somewhat certain that the change was intentional, since Moiraine's story of Manetheren could have included it, but doesn't.  Instead, it makes it sound as if the village is located on the site of the old capital city, where Eldrene died.  Rather than the battlefield, where Aemon did.

 

I wish I could avoid the easy criticism that it once again strips a link to an important man in order to replace it with a link to an important woman.  But I don't think it's avoidable.  It's not that it removes a link.  It's that it intentionally changes what it links to.

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Andra said:

It's not that it isn't clear.  It's that going by just the show (not the bonus materials) it IS clear. 

And the name is different from what both the books and the bonus materials say it is.

 

Also, I didn't say it irritated him.  I said it was the first thing in the show that confused him.

 

 

 

It irritates me, because it's a change that Rafe apparently made for no reason except to show that he could.

Or in post film editing scenes got cut that clarified it. Everyone seems to think Rafe is on some sort of a power trip, I think he is trying to make the best wot show and was going to be attacked by a % of the audience regardless of what he did. 

[Andra]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Or in post film editing scenes got cut that clarified it. Everyone seems to think Rafe is on some sort of a power trip, I think he is trying to make the best wot show and was going to be attacked by a % of the audience regardless of what he did. 

I don't think anything was cut in editing that would have clarified it.

The name "Emond's Field" isn't mentioned a single time in the entire eight episodes.  "Two Rivers" is mentioned almost thirty times.

 

That's not a post-production slipup.

 

And again, Moiraine's telling of the Fall of Manetheren in the book explicitly makes the connection.  In the show it is completely omitted.  Editing can't possibly explain that one.

[Pembie]

6 hours ago, Andra said:

It's not that it isn't clear.  It's that going by just the show (not the bonus materials) it IS clear. 

And the name is different from what both the books and the bonus materials say it is.

 

Also, I didn't say it irritated him.  I said it was the first thing in the show that confused him.

 

 

 

It irritates me, because it's a change that Rafe apparently made for no reason except to show that he could.

I’m on crossroads now but I’m kind of getting bored of the story now but at same time I really want to finish it  Then watch the tv show By sounds of it the story has really been changed there

 

I have heard last four books are really good I watch Mike Reads on YouTube his reviews of the books is good  

 

 

[Cauthonfan4]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Everyone seems to think Rafe is on some sort of a power trip,

When you literally say you're going to change the story in ways that alienates the book audience and make little use of one of the best sources you have what do you expect?

[Andra]

21 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

When you literally say you're going to change the story in ways that alienates the book audience and make little use of one of the best sources you have what do you expect?

But he does seem to think mountains are pretty.

So maybe that's a plus?

[Scarloc99]

On 2/1/2022 at 1:52 AM, Cauthonfan4 said:

When you literally say you're going to change the story in ways that alienates the book audience and make little use of one of the best sources you have what do you expect?

What he said was that in turning it into a TV show he Knew he would alienate some of the fanbase, had he given you your adaptation then he may well of alienated other members of the fanbase, or, even worse, non book readers. He has alienated SOME book audience, in no way can we say that is all, he has produced a version of the story that works on the screen. 

[Andra]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

What he said was that in turning it into a TV show he Knew he would alienate some of the fanbase, had he given you your adaptation then he may well of alienated other members of the fanbase, or, even worse, non book readers. He has alienated SOME book audience, in no way can we say that is all, he has produced a version of the story that works on the screen. 

Actually, he said substantially more than that.

He didn't say simply that turning it into a TV show would alienate some readers.  He said that many of his specific changes (above and beyond those necessary for an adaptation) would alienate readers.  Including some of the favorite characters he intended to kill off early.

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, Andra said:

Actually, he said substantially more than that.

He didn't say simply that turning it into a TV show would alienate some readers.  He said that many of his specific changes (above and beyond those necessary for an adaptation) would alienate readers.  Including some of the favorite characters he intended to kill off early.

Again those choices where made in order to make a TV show that works, he hasn't thought. "I know I am going to do this thing to piss people off"

Whoever picked up this show as showrunner would have needed to make the exact same decisions, and, whichever way they had gone would have seriously upset Some people. Even if Amazon gave unlimited time and money you would still not be able to make a page for page adaption, because it would make for some truly awfully dull TV at times. 

You Don't like the choices he made, that is entirely fair, what isn't fair is anyone trying to claim he is doing it because he thinks he is better then RJ, or to sabotage the story. He is a show runner and writer, he is trying to make a show that appeals to the masses and will do that over 8 seasons. That is a very different skill set to actually writing a novel. 

[Lethira the second]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Again those choices where made in order to make a TV show that works, he hasn't thought. "I know I am going to do this thing to piss people off"

Whoever picked up this show as showrunner would have needed to make the exact same decisions, and, whichever way they had gone would have seriously upset Some people. Even if Amazon gave unlimited time and money you would still not be able to make a page for page adaption, because it would make for some truly awfully dull TV at times. 

You Don't like the choices he made, that is entirely fair, what isn't fair is anyone trying to claim he is doing it because he thinks he is better then RJ, or to sabotage the story. He is a show runner and writer, he is trying to make a show that appeals to the masses and will do that over 8 seasons. That is a very different skill set to actually writing a novel. 

 

I think Rafe has very little experience in writing/showrunning and comes up short.  It's clear that he disregarded a lot of advice given to him -which is his prerogative, but he will have to deal with the fallout.  I don't think he has come up with a TV show that works, what he produced was a hot mess of set pieces, not a coherent story.  He over-reached!  

 

A lot of people are defending the show saying 'Watch and Find Out'; that doesn't cut it in the fickle world of TV.  If you're an author with a guaranteed book deal and a massive readership, you can do that, it's enticing I love plots that span multiple books.  If you're a novice show runner, you have to get good results from the get-go otherwise you get cancelled no matter how much a select bunch of people like your work.

 

Season one had one job, to set the foundation for telling the story, and introduce the characters/world.  Most of the non readers I've talked to were pretty scathing about the show and gave up.  They struggled to put names to the 3 boys from the 2 rivers for example.  Amazon won't tell us the break down of their viewership but they know.  If it's a dozen or so people rewatching the show because they really liked it or if they are getting a high count of unique users will have an impact on the future of the show.  -I watched it twice through, in the hope I would find some sort of hope for season 2. 

 

I don't think Rafe set out to sabotage anything, I just don't think he has the experience to do the job.  Maybe he will grow into it, but given that season 2 was already filming (I believe) when season 1 was released, I don't think he has the opportunity to pick up the feedback and make adjustments.

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

gain those choices where made in order to make a TV show that works

That isn't some magic 'get out of jail free card' excuse. 

"Oh, I had to make Tam bumble with his sword to make a TV show work." 

"I had to use an eighth of the season on the warder bond to make the TV show work" 

"I had to kill off Aglemar to make a TV show work"  "

I had to introduce Siuan and Tar Valon early to make a TV show work"

 

It's all crap.

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

He is a show runner and writer, he is trying to make a show that appeals to the masses and will do that over 8 seasons. That is a very different skill set to actually writing a novel. 

Rafe apparently doesn't have either skillset.

[Andra]

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Again those choices where made in order to make a TV show that works, he hasn't thought. "I know I am going to do this thing to piss people off"

Whoever picked up this show as showrunner would have needed to make the exact same decisions, and, whichever way they had gone would have seriously upset Some people. Even if Amazon gave unlimited time and money you would still not be able to make a page for page adaption, because it would make for some truly awfully dull TV at times. 

You Don't like the choices he made, that is entirely fair, what isn't fair is anyone trying to claim he is doing it because he thinks he is better then RJ, or to sabotage the story. He is a show runner and writer, he is trying to make a show that appeals to the masses and will do that over 8 seasons. That is a very different skill set to actually writing a novel. 

 

Look at the specific criticisms people here have made about the changes.

Virtually none of them are about things that were done to "make a TV show that works."  They are pretty much all about things that don't appear to have any point except to show he could change them.

 

The changes to Mat and his parents don't.

Changing the location of their village doesn't.

Erasing the existence of the Mayor and the Village Council doesn't.

Making Bel Tine happen when the weather's already warm doesn't.

Inventing Egwene's "initiation" doesn't.

Rand and Egwene having premarital sex doesn't.

Having Marin al'Vere recognize Moiraine as Aes Sedai on sight doesn't.

Nynaeve's story about her predecessor having been turned away from the Tower because she was poor doesn't.

Moiraine and Lan knowing the Fade was already there and trollocs were coming ahead of time - and doing nothing about it - doesn't.

Killing Master Hightower (without even giving him the courtesy of being named) doesn't.

 

And that's all just in the first episode.

 

It's possible that in some bizarre way Rafe actually thought those changes made for better TV.  And that's part of the problem.

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Andra said:

 

Look at the specific criticisms people here have made about the changes.

Virtually none of them are about things that were done to "make a TV show that works."  They are pretty much all about things that don't appear to have any point except to show he could change them.

 

The changes to Mat and his parents don't.

Changing the location of their village doesn't.

Erasing the existence of the Mayor and the Village Council doesn't.

Making Bel Tine happen when the weather's already warm doesn't.

Inventing Egwene's "initiation" doesn't.

Rand and Egwene having premarital sex doesn't.

Having Marin al'Vere recognize Moiraine as Aes Sedai on sight doesn't.

Nynaeve's story about her predecessor having been turned away from the Tower because she was poor doesn't.

Moiraine and Lan knowing the Fade was already there and trollocs were coming ahead of time - and doing nothing about it - doesn't.

Killing Master Hightower (without even giving him the courtesy of being named) doesn't.

 

And that's all just in the first episode.

 

It's possible that in some bizarre way Rafe actually thought those changes made for better TV.  And that's part of the problem.

 

 

 

See I disagree, I think most of those changes made sense, with the Exception of Mats dad. It lets the show flow through the first episode and get the characters on the road in an hour, Rafe has commented that he could have filled out the time with more shots of the village and a longer build but really, in terms of telling the story of how the dragon and his allies get to the final battle, which is the only story that matters, it takes up much needed screen time. 

It compares, strangely, to Amazons latest release, Vox machina. Sam Reigal explained that condensing down approx 370 hours of dialogue and story telling into 12 30 min episodes means you have to make editorial decisions on what you cut and keep. You have to condense the growing of a relationship that built over 4 years down to 7 minutes, so you have to cut stuff. You have to put story beats and character moments at different moments in the show to when they happened. 

Rafe could have given you all you wanted in Emonds Field, but then what does he cut out later? He needed to hit some key character beats in that first episode to show you very very quickly what was going on. He had to show the audience that this was a show with certain themes and he needed to do that in a very short amount of time. He had to do all he could to make WOT different to LOTR, something that is hard given the book is so so close to fellowship. 
 

Are there different decisions he could have made? Of course, and as I say you have no idea if those would have made for a better show, it might have made a better show for you, but equally many other may have hated it and Most importantly non book readers may have been turned off by pacing. 

[Scarloc99]

18 hours ago, Deviations said:

That isn't some magic 'get out of jail free card' excuse. 

"Oh, I had to make Tam bumble with his sword to make a TV show work." 

"I had to use an eighth of the season on the warder bond to make the TV show work" 

"I had to kill off Aglemar to make a TV show work"  "

I had to introduce Siuan and Tar Valon early to make a TV show work"

 

It's all crap.

Says you, and fine have you opinion, but, many many many millions more who watched and enjoyed it seem to disagree. 

[Scarloc99]

18 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

 

I think Rafe has very little experience in writing/showrunning and comes up short.  It's clear that he disregarded a lot of advice given to him -which is his prerogative, but he will have to deal with the fallout.  I don't think he has come up with a TV show that works, what he produced was a hot mess of set pieces, not a coherent story.  He over-reached!  

 

A lot of people are defending the show saying 'Watch and Find Out'; that doesn't cut it in the fickle world of TV.  If you're an author with a guaranteed book deal and a massive readership, you can do that, it's enticing I love plots that span multiple books.  If you're a novice show runner, you have to get good results from the get-go otherwise you get cancelled no matter how much a select bunch of people like your work.

 

Season one had one job, to set the foundation for telling the story, and introduce the characters/world.  Most of the non readers I've talked to were pretty scathing about the show and gave up.  They struggled to put names to the 3 boys from the 2 rivers for example.  Amazon won't tell us the break down of their viewership but they know.  If it's a dozen or so people rewatching the show because they really liked it or if they are getting a high count of unique users will have an impact on the future of the show.  -I watched it twice through, in the hope I would find some sort of hope for season 2. 

 

I don't think Rafe set out to sabotage anything, I just don't think he has the experience to do the job.  Maybe he will grow into it, but given that season 2 was already filming (I believe) when season 1 was released, I don't think he has the opportunity to pick up the feedback and make adjustments.

See the 20-30 people I know who watched it enjoyed it and are looking forward to season 2. 

[Cauthonfan4]

22 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Again those choices where made in order to make a TV show that works

Except does it work? Even the best audience score is only a 7.2 out of 10, and it only goes down from there.

 

Furthermore you can't say every change was due to adapting it. Pure and simple there was plenty of totally unnecessary changes that go beyond "make this from a book to a TV series"

 

The show had less viewership then most mcu shows that require a sub to Disney+ which costs extra and only provides streaming, meanwhile almost every household I know already has prime for the obvious benefits it provides outside of streaming.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Cauthonfan4]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

but, many many many millions more who watched and enjoyed it seem to disagree

Do they? Yeah they watched season 1 but how many are going to drop before season 2? Season 1 ended with an absolute clunker and the audience scores don't scream absolutely amazing either.

[Skipp]

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Do they? Yeah they watched season 1 but how many are going to drop before season 2? Season 1 ended with an absolute clunker and the audience scores don't scream absolutely amazing either.

I am sure many will watch because they love the books.  I am also sure that many will watch because some people love to hate-watch things for reasons I don't understand.

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

am sure many will watch because they love the books

Love of the books? Why? Clearly rhe showrunner has no love of the books so why should my love of the books behold me to watch this show?

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Except does it work? Even the best audience score is only a 7.2 out of 10, and it only goes down from there.

 

Furthermore you can't say every change was due to adapting it. Pure and simple there was plenty of totally unnecessary changes that go beyond "make this from a book to a TV series"

 

The show had less viewership then most mcu shows that require a sub to Disney+ which costs extra and only provides streaming, meanwhile almost every household I know already has prime for the obvious benefits it provides outside of streaming.

 

Amazon actually has fewer Prime members that watch TV then you realise, that is one of the reason they are pushing original series to try and get more people watching the TV side of Prime. 

 

In terms of Changes that are required for TV, the only one that confuses me is the change to Mats Dad, taking the list above. 

 

The changes to Mat and his parents don't. - I like the change to Matt but not to his mum and dad. 

Changing the location of their village doesn't. - Location isn't changed, yes they refer to the 2 rivers rather than Emonds Field but that doesn't mean the villiage itself has changed. 

Erasing the existence of the Mayor and the Village Council doesn't. - Adding them adds nothing either, and just because they are not on screen doesn't mean they don't exist. Spending time introducing characters who then play no part in the main narrative for many seasons wastes screen time, but also requires the Actors to agree to return in several years time when no one knows what they might be doing. The fewer "Emonds Field" Cast that are defined, the easier it is to ensure they don't have schedule clashes when they are required again. 

Making Bel Tine happen when the weather's already warm doesn't. This I imagine is a budget and location issue, filming on location was largely done in Croatia, relocating the whole cast and set to a wintery country at the time of filming just to show that time of year was probably not feasable. Sometimes you have to deal with what the location gives you in terms of weather. Additionally, filming in a location with bad weather causes it's own filming issues as you contend with rain and poor light cancelling filiming days. 

Inventing Egwene's "initiation" doesn't. - I liked this, it was something new from the books and, for Non book readers it defines that she has come of age, it presents the idea that she was really excited about this event and that then feeds into later in her story arc. 

Rand and Egwene having premarital sex doesn't. - This defines so much so quickly. It makes it clear in one scene what the relationship is between them, meaning you don't have to lose screen time explaining it, or building it. The important thing to the Story of them is, they are in a relationship and then in several seasons time will almost come to blows. It also defines to the audience that this is a TV show that will deal with sex, important given that in later seasons there are some very adult themes coming up (poly relationships, multiple rapes, compulsion being used to create hareems). 

Having Marin al'Vere recognize Moiraine as Aes Sedai on sight doesn't - It again explains to the audience straight away quickly who she is, it allows us to get that sense that she is respected and also feared. If you go the route of the books then episode 1,2 and 3 will be spent in Emonds field, that is just wasted TV time on something that really is of little importance compared to the entirety of the series. 

Nynaeve's story about her predecessor having been turned away from the Tower because she was poor doesn't. - This is key, in the books you don't really learn about those who are turned away until far later, but for a non book reader this is important information for things that will come later in the series. It also defines really easily a reason for Nyn to dislike the Aes Sedai without having to spend 3 episodes "scene setting" 

Moiraine and Lan knowing the Fade was already there and trollocs were coming ahead of time - and doing nothing about it - doesn't. - confused by this that is not the read I got from the show, but also, in the books It is described that Morraine and Lan warned the villiage just as the Trollocs where attacking. 

Killing Master Hightower (without even giving him the courtesy of being named) doesn't. - It explains one of the 3 laws, but also he isn't an important character, his death doesn't change anything about the story. 

All but 1 of those changes is negative. I am surprised Perrin wasn't included, him killing his wife also makes sense in many ways. In one scene it explains what in the books takes pages and pages to. It moves his character further along and yes I would have preferred if it hadn't been his wife but, you don't have to introduce his wife deeply, you don't have to explain the relationship or why him killing her is such a big deal to his character because everyone can get how bad it would be to kill your own wife in that way. Had it been Master Luhhan then you have to spend time introducing him, you need scenes to allow the audience to bond to him, to understand his relationship to Perrin just to be able to be affected when Perrin kills him. Again this is screen time that, with 8 episodes, you just don't have. 

 

[Scarloc99]

23 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I am sure many will watch because they love the books.  I am also sure that many will watch because some people love to hate-watch things for reasons I don't understand.

Book readers are not, and should not be the target audience here. There are not enough in the world to warrant making a TV show with this budget. The target audience has to be people who have never read the books, and, Amazon also wants to draw in people who never usually watch fantasy TV shows. That feeds very much into the tone of the show as well and many of the creative decisions of what to cut and keep.