IGN Explainer - the Dark One

[Deadsy]

19 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

I imagine what Beidomon means by watered down is: The Aes Sedai in the books are gentling men knowing  that if the dragon reborn were to ever show up he will be a male who can channel. Seems... like a bad plan. But if the dragon reborn can be female, well hey, that whole complication is lessened, motivations can be more easily explained. After all, it's ok to gentle all the males because the dragon reborn is probably a female anyway.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but that sounds like bad Aes Sedai logic to me. Not logic that would actually make sense. They still risk gentling the DR. A 1/5,000 chance they're gentling the DR vs. a 1/10,000 chance isn't much of a difference. (Just making these #s up - however many male channelers have been gentled since the AS started doing it, knowing the Dragon would be reborn someday).

[Jackdaw_Fool]

17 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

Not much at all changes with this that's actually worth mentioning in a TV show.

Yes, that's a perfectly reasonable position. It is however an entirely self fulfilling prophesy. The alternate viewpoint is to expect changes that are interesting enough to mention on a tv show... My going in position was that the possibility for a female dragon would (should) actually mean something within the context of this re-imagining and isn't just a lip service type change. But if it's to just be forgotten about after season one, then well...

[Tim]

I agree with Deadsy - that just doesn’t make sense. As I said above, the reduction in the odds that any man who is gentled might have been the DR is not much less. I just don’t think the Red Ajah ever thought very much about the prospect that they might be gentling the DR. There was no sign in the books that any Red Ajah aes sedai was concerned about the prospect.

 

As to female false dragons, I don’t think that would be meaningfully more common even if it is notionally possible for a female to be the DR. Most of the prominent false dragons were channellers - why? Because if you are a man who can channel you are basically marked for death or close to it - unless you happen to be the DR, in which case you have a reason to exist. So declaring yourself the DR is basically the only way to turn a bug into a feature, which means male channellers are strongly incentivised to convince themselves that they are the DR.
 

For female channellers, there is an accepted pathway to social acceptance and power: become an Aes Sedai. It would be unusual for a female channeller to spurn that option and (on the basis of zero evidence) decide they were the DR instead. 

[Deadsy]

8 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Yes, that's a perfectly reasonable position. It is however an entirely self fulfilling prophesy. The alternate viewpoint is to expect changes that are interesting enough to mention on a tv show... My going in position was that the possibility for a female dragon would (should) actually mean something within the context of this re-imagining and isn't just a lip service type change. But if it's to just be forgotten about after season one, then well...

 

 

The change is that it could be a female. That is a change worth doing and mentioning to them (the show creators). But there are details that would have impacted in the book that don't tend to make it from book to screen with a fantasy series. Minute details of prophecy/magic mechanics being one of them. This kind of thing is typically glossed over. Basically they have changed something because they thought it would help hook more viewers and keep them watching the next episode in the all important initial season, but it isn't something where it impacts the story/lore enough to be significant, because what would have changed, they weren't going to go into minute detail on regardless. We'll see what ends up happening there. I think it will have little to no impact. We will never know if it was a necessary change in order to make the show a commercial success.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Jackdaw_Fool]

6 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

1/5,000 chance they're gentling the DR vs. a 1/10,000 chance isn't much of a difference.

Yes to bad logic. But they are and have been doing it. That 1/5,000 chance is diluted to a 1/10,000 chance (or whatever the numbers would really be.) Diluted... Watered down. The impact is lessened. Moral relativism comes into play. Actions are more easily justified, when you want them to be. Perceived impact is reduced. Just trying to explain what I'm thinking Beidomon meant, but I should let them probably explain better.

[Deadsy]

6 minutes ago, Tim said:

I agree with Deadsy - that just doesn’t make sense. As I said above, the reduction in the odds that any man who is gentled might have been the DR is not much less. I just don’t think the Red Ajah ever thought very much about the prospect that they might be gentling the DR. There was no sign in the books that any Red Ajah aes sedai was concerned about the prospect.

 

As to female false dragons, I don’t think that would be meaningfully more common even if it is notionally possible for a female to be the DR. Most of the prominent false dragons were channellers - why? Because if you are a man who can channel you are basically marked for death or close to it - unless you happen to be the DR, in which case you have a reason to exist. So declaring yourself the DR is basically the only way to turn a bug into a feature, which means male channellers are strongly incentivised to convince themselves that they are the DR.
 

For female channellers, there is an accepted pathway to social acceptance and power: become an Aes Sedai. It would be unusual for a female channeller to spurn that option and (on the basis of zero evidence) decide they were the DR instead. 

 

 

I think this is a great point. It would be very dangerous to claim to be the dragon, and the women could sit cozy in the tower with quite a bit of power without needing to do that.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Yes to bad logic. But they are and have been doing it. That 1/5,000 chance is diluted to a 1/10,000 chance (or whatever the numbers would really be.) Diluted... Watered down. The impact is lessened. Moral relativism comes into play. Actions are more easily justified, when you want them to be. Perceived impact is reduced. Just trying to explain what I'm thinking Beidomon meant, but I should let them probably explain better.

 

 

Ok, let's say that's what is meant. It's not watered down enough for it to be meaningful in any way.

[DaddyFinn]

Surely the Patter will not allow the DR to be gentled if his ability to channel is important

[JaimAybara]

I’m a bit late but I’m intrigued on how this is going to play out. Also, just trying to figure out how things will work if they make massive changes. I like understanding things, so if they just never say that will be a bummer. (That’s what I would consider watered down) just refusing to go into it at all or very minimally. 

 

That being said, Callandor can only be used by a male channeler, it has been waiting for the Dragon Reborn to fulfill the prophesy by taking the Stone. Female channelers cannot use it so they can’t fulfill the prophesy. Okay. So the writers make it so they can and change the prophesy or they channel Saidin in a female body? If so, it would make sense they get gentled/stilled too still experiencing the taint. Now we also open up a bunch of questions as to why the tower never got its hands on it before. Why would they leave a female Sa’angreal that could be used by anyone in the hands of someone else? Aren’t they super touchy about that stuff? Why would they leave it? Simply to maintain a prophesy? And through non-channelers that don’t like them?…

 

There are far fewer male channelers or they are mostly in hiding/going crazy/getting magic neutered and dying. There doesn’t seem to be any reason why a female dragon would hide to me…so that is kind of strange to me as a concept. So when it is actually a man it becomes more significant when one of them to try and take the sword.
 

Women although also dwindling significantly outnumber the men who have largely been culled. Also, the Choedan Kal has two, a male and a female. Are we de-gendering these too? If so, what does that mean for who can use them later? And do we change the scenes in which they are used? Or the people who use them? 

 

If we are removing gender breakdowns entirely, what will their explanation for the corruption be and how it functions? Will men and women be able to teach each other how to use the one power? That was one of the other subplots that was interesting. Figuring out how men can teach themselves or learn how to use it in general. How does linking change? Would they need a man to make larger circles at all? Would women be capped anymore? Will men be able to see women channel? And women men? what would that do to the ability of each of them to largely hide it from each other if they wanted to and the politics of channeling in each other’s presence. Circles etc. we wouldn’t get those spidey senses from you know who because they wouldn’t be required. Sorry! Lots of questions rattling around. Trying to figure out how the systems will function. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Ralph]

Why would anyone know what Callandor was? 

[Ralph]

The rest doesn't need changing. If they have removed the saidar/in distinction I would be quite upset, but I see no reason to think they have

[JaimAybara]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Why would anyone know what Callandor was? 

It’s floating in the Stone of Tear and implied in referenced prophecies. Aes Sedai know what it is. Of course unless they change prophesies entirely or remove them. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Jackdaw_Fool]

11 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

Ok, let's say that's what is meant. It's not watered down enough for it to be meaningful in any way.

I'd imagine the white ajah would agree. Many other sisters across the other ajahs are probably of DaddyFinn's opinion: the pattern won't allow the DR to be gentled if his ability were important. With a possibly female dragon I'd imagine even more might be of the opinion: if we gentle all the males, the pattern will have to give us a female dragon, which is what we'd really prefer anyway. Which would reduce the conflict within the tower regarding the matter (watering it down, again believing this is what Beidomon meant.)

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, JaimAybara said:

It’s floating in the Stone of Tear and implied in referenced prophecies. Aes Sedai know what it is. Of course unless they change prophesies entirely or remove them. 

 

Do they know it is a male sa'angreal? That is what I mean

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

Do they know it is a male sa'angreal? That is what I mean

 

 I believe so, yes. Which is why they ignored it. I also thought they kind of use it as bait for False Dragons. They likely used it to lay in wait for Logain. Knowing where they would eventually find him. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Ralph]

I know some do, but most not. 

 

They would have to change the flashback from TSR showing the creators of Callandor, I suppose

[Deadsy]

15 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I’m a bit late but I’m intrigued on how this is going to play out. Also, just trying to figure out how things will work if they make massive changes. I like understanding things, so if they just never say that will be a bummer. (That’s what I would consider watered down) just refusing to go into it at all or very minimally. 

 

That being said, Callandor can only be used by a male channeler, it has been waiting for the Dragon Reborn to fulfill the prophesy by taking the Stone. Female channelers cannot use it so they can’t fulfill the prophesy. Okay. So the writers make it so they can and change the prophesy or they channel Saidin in a female body? If so, it would make sense they get gentled/stilled too still experiencing the taint. Now we also open up a bunch of questions as to why the tower never got its hands on it before. Why would they leave a female Sa’angreal that could be used by anyone in the hands of someone else? Aren’t they super touchy about that stuff? Why would they leave it? Simply to maintain a prophesy? And through non-channelers that don’t like them?…

 

There are far fewer male channelers or they are mostly in hiding/going crazy/getting magic neutered and dying. There doesn’t seem to be any reason why a female dragon would hide to me…so that is kind of strange to me as a concept. So when it is actually a man it becomes more significant when one of them to try and take the sword.
 

Women although also dwindling significantly outnumber the men who have largely been culled. Also, the Choedan Kal has two, a male and a female. Are we de-gendering these too? If so, what does that mean for who can use them later? And do we change the scenes in which they are used? Or the people who use them? 

 

If we are removing gender breakdowns entirely, what will their explanation for the corruption be and how it functions? Will men and women be able to teach each other how to use the one power? That was one of the other subplots that was interesting. Figuring out how men can teach themselves or learn how to use it in general. How does linking change? Would they need a man to make larger circles at all? Would women be capped anymore? Will men be able to see women channel? And women men? what would that do to the ability of each of them to largely hide it from each other if they wanted to and the politics of channeling in each other’s presence. Circles etc. we wouldn’t get those spidey senses from you know who because they wouldn’t be required. Sorry! Lots of questions rattling around. Trying to figure out how the systems will function. 

 

 

They aren't going to obsess enough about details to talk about saidin in female bodies because Callandor is for saidin users. Callandar will be a sa'angreal sword the DR draws. Unless we have a moment where Moiraine and Siuan are realizing it was there right in front of their faces and they missed it.

The Chodean Kal don't need to be de-gendered. There is one for a man and one for a woman. Nothing about that makes the show runners look stupid if the DR could have been a woman.

They don't need to "de-gender" much at all. The gender of the DR would have no impact on whether a man can teach a woman or woman can teach a man. They only need to change things that would be illogical if the DR could be female, and that are important to the story they are telling. Your last paragraph is not relevant because there is no need to change it. If they do change it there's really no reason for it.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[Ralph]

Sorry, appeared twice for some reason

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ralph

[Deadsy]

10 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

I'd imagine the white ajah would agree. Many other sisters across the other ajahs are probably of DaddyFinn's opinion: the pattern won't allow the DR to be gentled if his ability were important. With a possibly female dragon I'd imagine even more might be of the opinion: if we gentle all the males, the pattern will have to give us a female dragon, which is what we'd really prefer anyway. Which would reduce the conflict within the tower regarding the matter (watering it down, again believing this is what Beidomon meant.)

 

 

My impression from the books was that the HUGE majority of Aes Sedai thought all men should be gentled. That is why Siuan and Moiraine were scared shitless when Verin knew what was going on. I'm talking 99.9% of Aes Sedai. I think it may even be Tower law. What you're describing doesn't change the AS attitude about gentling males.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Deadsy

[JaimAybara]

Just now, Deadsy said:

 

 

My impression from the books was that the HUGE majority of Aes Sedai thought all men should be gentled. That is why Siuan and Moiraine were scared shitless when Verin knew what was going on. I'm talking 99.9% of Aes Sedai. It was almost all of them.

I got the same impression. And the Red Ajah had very malicious plans in regards to False Dragons and the real one. 
 

Didn’t the white Ajah even venture as far as to suggest to sleep with false dragons and gentled men to repopulate the White Tower? 

[Jackdaw_Fool]

31 minutes ago, Tim said:

For female channellers, there is an accepted pathway to social acceptance and power: become an Aes Sedai.

 

26 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

I think this is a great point. It would be very dangerous to claim to be the dragon, and the women could sit cozy in the tower with quite a bit of power without needing to do that.

Again, I think this speaks to female wilders, and yes, as I said I mostly agree. When thinking about false dragons that can channel, the ones that most matter (to my mind) are the ones that are Aes Sedai and Amyrlins, or that aspire to be Amyrlins, or that believe supporting someone as the DR would be to their advantage. We see a fair number of Aes Sedai that aren't content to sit cozy in the tower.

 

33 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

Most of the prominent false dragons were channellers - why? Because if you are a man who can channel you are basically marked for death or close to it - unless you happen to be the DR, in which case you have a reason to exist.

I don't believe your answer as to why quite follows. If you are a man who can channel, you have some additional motivation to declare yourself the dragon reborn - I can see that. But in the books most false dragons have been men who cannot channel. Most of the prominent false dragons as you say have been channelers (I think that is true)... They're been prominent just because they have wrought more destruction in the world due to their abilities and the madness. But there are a large number of men (most per at least the glossary in the books) who have been motivated to declare themselves the dragon reborn despite not being able to channel and not having the motivation to do so due to impending madness and death.

 

So I stand by my belief that female false dragons who cannot channel would, in a well plotted world, have a large impact... They should be roughly as numerous as males, and maybe even more so since they have extra incentivization and support due to some greater number in the populace wishing for a female dragon, and maybe even more successful for the same reason.

[JaimAybara]

The only way a female Dragon would be able to believe they are the dragon is by completing prophesy. “ You know who” has the added layer of having his past life impact him in peculiar ways. How would a female DR verify who they are beyond marks and brands etc. ? I guess the Dark One and forsaken approaching them? 

[Jackdaw_Fool]

1 hour ago, Deadsy said:

Basically they have changed something because they thought it would help hook more viewers...

Well if true, that's crummy! I'd hope whatever changes there might be would be done to translate the books I enjoyed to the screen, or to at least enhance the story. If the motivation is otherwise, then there's not much point in discussing this further...

[Rose]

I may be completely misremembering this but wasn't it the case that nobody can touch Callandor without dying? Only the Dragon's hand can touch Callandor. They could just say no Aes Sedai has been able to approach it long enough to figure out if it's a saidin or saidar sa'angreal. It's not entirely satisfying because we know it was Aes Sedai who put it there in the first place during the Breaking but it's also not impossible to imagine that much knowledge about it was lost.

[Rose]

2 hours ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

Well if true, that's crummy! I'd hope whatever changes there might be would be done to translate the books I enjoyed to the screen, or to at least enhance the story. If the motivation is otherwise, then there's not much point in discussing this further...

 

Hooking more viewers is a valid and necessary motivation in my opinion, and it's not necessarily incompatible with enhancing the story or better translating it to the screen. What one person may see as an enhancement, another may see as a loss. It's all very subjective. If they believe a change will be seen as an enhancement by a large audience, and it can be pulled off without changing the story in a major way, it's likely they'll do it. And we kind of need them to because we don't want the show to be canceled after two seasons. We need lots of people who aren't already fans to be hooked and watch.

 

But it also means us fans get a big adaptation curve because it's not going to be what we expected. I used to be a lot more bothered by the changes but I've made my peace with them now. I'm glad they've released all these hints and promo clips ahead of time because it's given me time to get used to the idea that this will be different. If I'd gone into the show blind, I might have had whiplash. I dare hope that I'll be okay now, and be able to just sit back and enjoy.