New clip about the Aes Sedai

[swollymammoth]

36 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

It's actually pretty stupid

Not as stupid as thinking that in a world where people have been having visions of the Pattern and seeing the Dragon Reborn for 3000 years, somehow the only ones that mention he's a dude have all gone to the Aeil. Give me a break. The hoops you've got to jump through to justify this "is it a guy or a girl" thing in-universe are ridiculous, and it could have all been easily avoided. But the WoT writers just can't help themselves, it seems. 

[Borderlander]

That clip is a huge turn-off to me.

 

'The arrogance' line doesn't sound like Moiraine at all to me. I thought she was always a bit more tempered, and a student of history, and would have a more nuanced understanding of the motivations and circumstances surrounding the male Aes Sedai effort to seal the bore. I guess not. 

 

And that line, "...if he was reborn as a girl or a boy." Ugh.

 

I suppose we can go back to all the previous forums of the last few weeks where a bunch of people were defending the previous clip, suggesting Moiraine only said 'one of you four' or 'one of you five' in order to motivate Rand or to light a fire under their butts to leave (the) Two Rivers or because she was not referring to the DR at all, and put a knife in all those theories. Because now we know. Moiraine thinks the Dragon could be a girl.

 

I'll say it again: Moiraine thinks the Dragon Reborn could be a girl. 

 

Honestly, if you had read that two years ago, wouldn't you be a little concerned?

 

A lot of people have already expressed their dislike of this; add me to the list.

 

The line doesn't even sound good—it almost sounds as if it was dubbed in later, kind of rushed with a wonky cadence. Maybe they knew how ridiculous it sounded as they were recording it.

If this show was made five years ago, would that line be in there? Impossible to see this as anything other than modern-day ideologies being shoehorned in; either its modern gender ideology planting its flag, or its some kind of ham-fisted pandering to female viewers who Amazon assumes will only watch if a girl gets to be the hero, which is condescending. Either way, it's disappointing. 

 

Death by a thousand paper cuts.

 

[swollymammoth]

38 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Sometimes I wonder: do we even watch the same clip? Moiraine described the Sealing of the Bore and the Breaking of the world pretty vaguely but also faithfully to how it's described in the books. Men messed up and women cleaned it up in the next few hundred years.

False! 

 

Actually, Lews Therin proposed using the seals on the Dark One. One of the female Aes Sedai had a different plan to use the Choden kal (sp?) and so mobilized all the other female Aes Sedai to oppose Lews Therin. Lews Therin's plan was tabled. Then, problems with the Choden Kal arose, making the female Aes Sedai's plan impossible. Lews Therin brought up his plan again. This time, the female Aes Sedai reject the plan because they're wimps and think it's too risky. With no other options, the Hundred Companions seal away the Dark One and Saidin is tainted specifically because the female Aes Sedai weren't there to help. 

 

And what do they get for their heroics? They all go mad while the female Aes Sedai get to walk the high road. 

[Deadsy]

37 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

No mention of gender?

 

Karaethon Cycle/The Prophesy of the Dragon:

And he who shall be born of the Dawn, born of the Maiden, according to Prophecy,
he shall stretch forth his hands to catch the Shadow,

All Glory be to the Creator, and to the Light, and to he who shall be born again. May the Light save us from him.

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,
born once more as he was born before,

 

That's just a small excerpt. It goes on and on with the world "he". You might want to actually read the prophesy before making a claim like that. Moiraine and Aes Sedai will look really stupid when even the Shadow uses a gender specific language.

 

 

One of the Prophesies of the Shadow:

"The man who channels stands alone. He gives his friends for sacrifice. Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

 

 

Do you know what the word most means? Because that's the word I used. You're using a strawman by pretending I said there is no mention of gender. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Deadsy

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, swollymammoth said:

False! 

How so?

How many Male Aes Sedai rebuilt the world?

 

How many Women Aes Sedai went mad and boiled oceans?

 

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

And what do they get for their heroics? They all go mad while the female Aes Sedai get to walk the high road. 

Heroics, Arrogance, they kind of go hand in hand, don't they? 
 

Am I the only one that forgets many people in WoT don't trust any channelers, precisely because how they're all responsible for buggering the world up? That women criticizing men for the breaking for being arrogant, is also arrogance?

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Deadsy said:

 

 

Do you know what the word most means?

I Wouldn't fight this one. Most means majority. Only around 3 of the
Karaethon Cycle prophecies don't use gendered language. All the others do in fact, use He or His. 

[Maximillion]

Morraine's costume in that clip is also all wrong for the Blue Ajah.

She looks more like a Green

Not digging the whole 'action woman' thing going on.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Maximillion

[swollymammoth]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Do you know what the word most means?

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Karaethon_Cycle

 

Nice try broski. Here's the collection. Just do a word search for male pronouns. The truth is that the majority of them actually do mention that it's a guy. 

[Tim]

 

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

False! 

read the post you’re quoting again. No one in Rand’s time knew about the competing plans to combat the DO, the fateful concord, etc. I’m not even sure they knew about the two sa’angrael existing (though could be wrong on this point). They blamed the men.

 

I agree with the point that if this view is attributed to Moiraine (rather than just being promotional material narrated in her voice) it doesn’t suit her character as it is expressed in the books. 

[Deadsy]

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I Wouldn't fight this one. Most means majority. Only around 3 of the
Karaethon Cycle prophecies don't use gendered language. All the others do in fact, use He or His. 

 

8 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Karaethon_Cycle

 

Nice try broski. Here's the collection. Just do a word search for male pronouns. The truth is that the majority of them actually do mention that it's a guy. 

 

 

I'm perfectly fine with people proving me wrong without having to use strawmen to do it and change my words, as the person who replied to me did.

I'd rather not be referred to as broski...

Edited November 3, 2021 by Deadsy

[Deadsy]

21 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Not as stupid as thinking that in a world where people have been having visions of the Pattern and seeing the Dragon Reborn for 3000 years, somehow the only ones that mention he's a dude have all gone to the Aeil. Give me a break. The hoops you've got to jump through to justify this "is it a guy or a girl" thing in-universe are ridiculous, and it could have all been easily avoided. But the WoT writers just can't help themselves, it seems. 

 

It's actually really easy to have Moiraine not know of a prophecy referring to the DR as a man, if there is only one of them and it's not a part of the KC (I'm talking about the show now if that isn't clear). I doubt we're going to hear more than a couple lines of prophecy in the entire show, anyway.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Deadsy

[MasterAblar]

11 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

With no other options, the Hundred Companions seal away the Dark One and Saidin is tainted specifically because the female Aes Sedai weren't there to help. 

 

 

Technically saidar would have been tainted too if the female Aes Sedai would have joined, since there was no one capable of wielding the True power to act as a buffer. 

 

Regardless, we know that the breaking was more complicated and less straightforward then "dumb men think they're awesome and do everything themselves" but that doesn't mean the people in the books do. Most only have vague knowledge about the sealing and the breaking, if that.

 

Point is the specifics kinda tend to get lost when the world precedes to get blown up and the people who at best only kinda remember what happened end up being rather biased about it all.

[swollymammoth]

3 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

It's actually really easy to have Moiraine not know of a prophecy referring to the DR as a man, if there is only one of them. I doubt we're going to hear more than a couple lines of prophecy in the entire show.

I mean, now we've reached the point where I guess we just think that WoT is cool for different reasons. One of my favorite parts of the story is how Rand fights against all the prophecies and yet ends up fulfilling them anyway. The prophecies are a huge part of what actually lead him to accept that he's the Dragon Reborn, and a huge part of the way the story progresses is going from one prophecy to the next, ticking them off. 

 

If there's only one (for example the one that says he'll be born on Dragonmount since that's what helps Moiraine to find the Two Rivers in the first place) then all that stuff is lost. What about the Stone of Tear? What about Rand's Heron scars and dragon tattoos? That stuff is out the window. And that, automatically, would mean that the show sucked for me. 

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

It's actually really easy to have Moiraine not know of a prophecy referring to the DR as a man, if there is only one of them and it's not a part of the KC (I'm talking about the show now if that isn't clear). I doubt we're going to hear more than a couple lines of prophecy in the entire show, anyway.

 

Unfortunately I think you're probably correct, we won't hear all that much of the prophecies. Which is a shame cause I love prophecies but tv adaptation and all that ?

[Deadsy]

Just now, MasterAblar said:

 

Technically saidar would have been tainted too if the female Aes Sedai would have joined, since there was no one capable of wielding the True power to act as a buffer. 

 

Regardless, we know that the breaking was more complicated and less straightforward then "dumb men think they're awesome and do everything themselves" but that doesn't mean the people in the books do. Most only have vague knowledge about the sealing and the breaking, if that.

 

Point is the specifics kinda tend to get lost when the world precedes to get blown up and the people who at best only kinda remember what happened end up being rather biased about it all.

 

 

People are going to need to get used to getting the character perspective on most things in the show, because I doubt in TV show format we are going to hear the full truth of things from a narrator or someone who really knows what they're talking about, like we do in the books. Unfortunately that could have been Moiraine, so I still don't like that this line is coming from her. The only way it makes sense if it's just her feeling 20 years ago.

[swollymammoth]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Regardless, we know that the breaking was more complicated and less straightforward then "dumb men think they're awesome and do everything themselves"

I think you're absolutely right. I just have very little faith that the showrunners know this *shrug* 

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, now we've reached the point where I guess we just think that WoT is cool for different reasons. One of my favorite parts of the story is how Rand fights against all the prophecies and yet ends up fulfilling them anyway. The prophecies are a huge part of what actually lead him to accept that he's the Dragon Reborn, and a huge part of the way the story progresses is going from one prophecy to the next, ticking them off. 

 

If there's only one (for example the one that says he'll be born on Dragonmount since that's what helps Moiraine to find the Two Rivers in the first place) then all that stuff is lost. What about the Stone of Tear? What about Rand's Heron scars and dragon tattoos? That stuff is out the window. And that, automatically, would mean that the show sucked for me. 

 

I agree the prophecies are quite a bit part of Rand's story at the least, but I think these things tend to get sidelined. I believe they did in GoT as well. Hopefully I'm wrong though.

[Maximillion]

I just read online that Rafe has said in an interview that the story is about a different turning of the wheel to the books. Can't find the interview clip right now, but will hunt it down.

 

Maybe they are going to make Egwene a male soul but with a female body in this 'turning'.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Maximillion

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, now we've reached the point where I guess we just think that WoT is cool for different reasons. One of my favorite parts of the story is how Rand fights against all the prophecies and yet ends up fulfilling them anyway. The prophecies are a huge part of what actually lead him to accept that he's the Dragon Reborn, and a huge part of the way the story progresses is going from one prophecy to the next, ticking them off. 

 

If there's only one (for example the one that says he'll be born on Dragonmount since that's what helps Moiraine to find the Two Rivers in the first place) then all that stuff is lost. What about the Stone of Tear? What about Rand's Heron scars and dragon tattoos? That stuff is out the window. And that, automatically, would mean that the show sucked for me. 

 

 

I'm not saying I don't think the prophecies are a good/cool part of the story. I just don't think they will be featured much in the TV show. Just a hunch. I could be wrong, and then yes they'll need to make them genderless so as not to make Moiraine and Siuan look stupid.

[Deadsy]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I think you're absolutely right. I just have very little faith that the showrunners know this *shrug* 

 

 

It could actually be they are heightening all the distrust by making the Aes Sedai have even more distaste of men, although if Moiraine saves Logain then I forgive the tone of her statement in this clip.

[swollymammoth]

18 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That women criticizing men for the breaking for being arrogant, is also arrogance?

I hope this is what they're going for, I just don't believe in them haha In the books, it's played off this way, and I love that about the books. I guess that very little of what I've seen has instilled in me much faith in these writers' capacity for nuance. I look forward to being proven wrong, and am going into the first 3 episodes hoping to enjoy them. Nothing would make me happier than this show being awesome and getting 7 seasons. 

[Arthellion]

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I hope this is what they're going for, I just don't believe in them haha In the books, it's played off this way, and I love that about the books. I guess that very little of what I've seen has instilled in me much faith in these writers' capacity for nuance. I look forward to being proven wrong, and am going into the first 3 episodes hoping to enjoy them. Nothing would make me happier than this show being awesome and getting 7 seasons. 

Only 7? ?

[swollymammoth]

5 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

I'm not saying I don't think the prophecies are a good/cool part of the story.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't. I think this is one of the things that almost everybody likes about WoT, but for me personally, it would be a deal breaker to have it removed. Even if genderless pronouns in the prophecies make me cringe, I would rather have them than nothing at all. There's just always gonna be an itch in the back of my mind reminding me that the only reason it has to be this way is because of a marketing gimmick. 

 

Best case scenario: This stuff is just all marketing and Moiraine never says this stuff in the show. Kinda like the Rogue One trailer which was like half footage of stuff that wasn't even in the movie haha 

[swollymammoth]

12 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Maybe they are going to make Egwene a male soul but with a female body in this 'turning'.

I mean, there's precedent for this in the WoT universe... which only makes it more likely that someone read the stuff with Balal as a woman and thought, "Heeeeeeeyyyy you know what would really subvert expectations?" (Rian Johnson? What are you doing in here?) and then no one had the guts to tell them it was a terrible idea because they didn't want to get called names/fired. 

 

There's a non-0% chance this happens, but it's 0.0005% tops. As it is, I think we're lucky. If this show was getting made in 2031 instead of 2021, I think that probability would be a lot higher. Also Rand would have blue hair and Perrin would be a Wolfsibling and Mat would be stabbed to death by the Women's Circle in the first episode for being a sexual predator. 

[Maximillion]

7 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I mean, there's precedent for this in the WoT universe... which only makes it more likely that someone read the stuff with Balal as a woman and thought, "Heeeeeeeyyyy you know what would really subvert expectations?" (Rian Johnson? What are you doing in here?) and then no one had the guts to tell them it was a terrible idea because they didn't want to get called names/fired. 

 

There's a non-0% chance this happens, but it's 0.0005% tops. As it is, I think we're lucky. If this show was getting made in 2031 instead of 2021, I think that probability would be a lot higher. Also Rand would have blue hair and Perrin would be a Wolfsibling and Mat would be stabbed to death by the Women's Circle in the first episode for being a sexual predator. 

 

Lol, from what I am seeing I will not be surprised at all to see a whole host of 'issues' addressed in the storyline. Maybe those 2031 plot lines will make it in.?

 

I watched the first 3 episodes of 'Little Voice' on Apple TV+ and it just ramped up the silliness from week to week with nonsense to the point I couldn't watch it anymore.  The producers and writers ruining shows these days have no limits.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Maximillion