tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[Gothic Flame]

  On 12/20/2021 at 11:50 AM, Starganderfish said:

Still pretty unimpressed with the show.

Loved the blood snow, hated a whole lot of the rest of it.

I wrote a massive dump of my feelings but then realised no-one here would really care so just deleted it. in summary... its just a lot of meh.

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You're not alone.

A lot of those that had a lot of issues posted, but have dropped off. And to be fair, there's no better way of showing disapproval. A show that isn't in any way the books beyond usage of names deserves to be abandoned.

[Bruan]

  On 12/20/2021 at 10:17 AM, RhienneAgain said:

I agree. Its just one of many interactions between Lan and Nynaeve that makes me feel like I'm watching a totally different character who had borrowed Nynaeve's braid and name. There is no way book Nynaeve would have got into bed with anyone before marriage 

 

I'm really struggling to understand why the showrunners decided to go for implied sex when Nynaeve entered Lan's room instead of some version of the conversation Lan and Nynaeve have where Nynaeve essentially proposes to Lan at the end of tEotW. That would have demonstrated to audiences the level of commitment the two characters felt to each other, and highlighted the challenges facing them. 

 

It seems that they could have got the same outcome either way. I'm struggling to find any motivation for the change beyond 'sex sells' which saddens me a little.

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Well, my thoughts may be unpopular in this day and age, but I’m going to guess the reason behind it was the desire of Rafe and CO. To inject their own idea of cultural beliefs and ideals into the show, replacing the variety of culture developed by Robert Jordan an the books to make the story ‘better’ and more current.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 12/20/2021 at 10:17 AM, RhienneAgain said:

I agree. Its just one of many interactions between Lan and Nynaeve that makes me feel like I'm watching a totally different character who had borrowed Nynaeve's braid and name. There is no way book Nynaeve would have got into bed with anyone before marriage 

 

I'm really struggling to understand why the showrunners decided to go for implied sex when Nynaeve entered Lan's room instead of some version of the conversation Lan and Nynaeve have where Nynaeve essentially proposes to Lan at the end of tEotW. That would have demonstrated to audiences the level of commitment the two characters felt to each other, and highlighted the challenges facing them. 

 

It seems that they could have got the same outcome either way. I'm struggling to find any motivation for the change beyond 'sex sells' which saddens me a little.

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I think they made the change because to a modern TV audience, in a world of magic and myths and monsters, two attractive people in their mid-20's or older not getting it on was just too fantastic. ? 

 

I also think they're laying the groundwork of a more casual relationship to sex, because if they emphasized the rather conservative nature of Randland, they'd have to spend too much time dealing with the implications of Rand's women. It was a big part of the books, but they won't have as much time in the series to deal with it.

 

And, because Hollywood always wins, it's entirely possible that they made the change because Sexual conservatism is an outgrowth of the Male Patriarchy and the possessiveness of women inherent in Feudal culture and showing that sex is "no big deal" and that women can be the initiators is helps to show this is a world when women are much more in control.  ? 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Jaysen Gore

[NetNightmare]

  On 12/20/2021 at 1:27 PM, Bruan said:

replacing the variety of culture developed by Robert Jordan an the books to make the story ‘better’ and more current

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I not sure if it is ironic, so I ll take a guess and say it is heh.  I keep seeing  this argument about making it better and current popping up especially in regard to the "romance" and character personalities of WoT.

 

Of course everyone is entitled to have a preference, I find though the argument quite peculiar.. making a fantasy or historic novel "current" imho would just decontextualize it. Most of the fantasy genre "is" of medieval inspiration (of course there are exception), and their world construction is based for the most part on "chivalry" ideology and era costume. Can you modernize chivalry ?? every attempt made I've seen on TV (granted I ve not seen em all) was quite ridiculous.

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

I'm used to seeing other works getting the "Disney" treatment to make a particular storyline more palatable to acquire a wider audience. This is the first time I've seen/heard of the reverse. 

[Gothic Flame]

  On 12/20/2021 at 2:06 PM, NetNightmare said:

Of course everyone is entitled to have a preference, I find though the argument quite peculiar.. making a fantasy or historic novel "current" imho would just decontextualize it.

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And isn't that what we have between Nynaeve and Lan? In the book she was very intimidated when she heard Lan being called a "diademed battle lord, uncrowned king of Malkier." And it made sense that someone from the rural backwoods would feel that way.

 

[NetNightmare]

 

  On 12/20/2021 at 2:12 PM, Gothic Flame said:

In the book she was very intimidated when she heard Lan being called a "diademed battle lord, uncrowned king of Malkier." And it made sense that someone from the rural backwoods would feel that way.

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I do agree, imho Lan is the perfect example of Chivalry Knight in the WoT books, he adhere to the "code"  which identify is inner being, you can be assured he will always choose duty before anything else he is the rock of "Morality" inside a sea of compromise. I deeply cared for Lan in the books you could sense it's inner struggle to be free from the duty which impede it's desire..

 

The show from my point of view completely obliterated him ... what you get is a "warder" one of many, who didn't get to love him on the book will not sense the loss in the show ... so no biggie, I on the contrary am saddened

[Weird_Old_Lady]

  On 12/20/2021 at 2:33 AM, VooDooNut said:

This. And, did the off-screen sex really feel meaningless? They are in love!! It's fast, just like in TEOTW novel (blink and you'll miss it), but it definitely feels genuine. I loved the dinner scene and I love the layers of this Lan (and Nynaeve of course).

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Yes exactly. And if you go back and watch their scenes together and really watch Nynaeve's expressions you can see her slowly realize she trusts and then likes him. Then remember that they had a few days at least alone in the woods with unconscious Moraine and then 30 days or so of traveling with the other Aes Sedai and hanging out with the warders as much as possible. Watch both their faces throughout..... So good. I am in LOVE ?????? with Zoë Robins. Her eyes make my insides all squishy.....

[Weird_Old_Lady]

  On 12/20/2021 at 5:10 AM, CaddySedai said:

 

Especially since our favorite Blue specifically told Lan she liked Nyn. 

 

I almost guarantee without that opening he would not have allowed that coupling to happen. 

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Yes. I loved this part. And how Lan was when Moiraine was off to meet Siuan..... She raises her eyebrows at him... "Get the heck out can't you see I'm going to "bed""..... And Lan says "give her my love.". 

[Mirefox]

  On 12/20/2021 at 1:27 PM, Bruan said:

 

 

Well, my thoughts may be unpopular in this day and age, but I’m going to guess the reason behind it was the desire of Rafe and CO. To inject their own idea of cultural beliefs and ideals into the show, replacing the variety of culture developed by Robert Jordan an the books to make the story ‘better’ and more current.

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And isn’t this the problem that many people here have?  Who in the world asked for Rafe to “fix” Wheel of Time?  Who is Rafe to think he can do better than Jordan?

 

But it isn’t just Rafe.  I’m almost positive the powers that be saw the popularity of Game of Thrones and decided that if they were going to adapt Wheel of Time for the screen they needed to inject a little of the grimdark.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

  On 12/20/2021 at 6:09 AM, Dead Warder said:

They played several games of dice, Scrabble and part way through Monopoly: Blight Edition before the sun rose.

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Strip Scrabble is a thing. Nynaeve won.

[DaddyFinn]

  On 12/20/2021 at 2:38 PM, Mirefox said:

Who in the world asked for Rafe to “fix” Wheel of Time?  Who is Rafe to think he can do better than Jordan?

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Rafe is adapting WoT. Not fixing it or flexing with his writing skills.

[Brytac]

For what its worth, I really enjoyed Ep7.

 

Finally they told some of the story as it should have been imo....(still some ridiculous 'we know best' changes mind).

 

Shame most of the family I got to start watching it have already packed in with it.

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

  On 12/20/2021 at 3:02 PM, DaddyFinn said:

Rafe is adapting WoT. Not fixing it or flexing with his writing skills.

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Only Bezos asked for this.

No one else asked for whatever this is.

[ArrylT]

  On 12/20/2021 at 11:38 AM, Lethira the second said:

 

It's a shame they lost the opportunity for a game tie in.  They could have introduced everyones favourite card game "Uno". 

 

-I'll see myself out!

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That is a game I think I can swear by.  

[Bruan]

  On 12/20/2021 at 3:02 PM, DaddyFinn said:

Rafe is adapting WoT. Not fixing it or flexing with his writing skills.

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no, he’s modernizing it with all the current buzzwords like diversity, gender fluids, modern sexuality... He’s been saying as much since this started. That’s not adapting, that is fixing and flexing those writing skills.

[Borderlander]

Following up on Nyneave and Lan sleeping together and Rand and Egwene shacking uopin Episode 1, are we to assume that the young ladies of TV-WoT just don't care if they get pregnant? Traditional attitudes toward sex and marriage aren't all about male 'ownership' of women—women had to be very careful about having children if they did not have a strong family situation for the kids to be born into. If Egwene and Rand have been sleeping together for a while, what was her plan if she got pregnant? Is there a thriving community of young, single mothers in (the) Two Rivers? Shotgun weddings? Or are Rand and Egwene just 'stupid teenagers,' acting irresponsibly? And if that's the case, what is Nyneave's and Lan's excuse? What's Lan going to tell Moirane if he accidentally makes a little baby Dai'Shan? I guess we just pretend that these otherwise responsible characters just threw caution out the window? The Wisdom and the World's Greatest Warder... acting like stupid teenagers? Except, in TV-WoT, it's not stupid, because sex doesn't lead to babies unless the writers say so. 

 

It's not like in Randland they can just pop over to the local peddler's wagon and get some morning-after pill. Having all these characters getting it on without any acknowledgement of the serious consequences of sex makes the world-building for the TV show that much weaker. It feels like another instance of the invisible thumbprint of modern ideology superimposed on a (fictional) culture where it makes no sense: basically modern-day hookup culture completely divorced from the reality that sex leads to babies (even in fictional worlds.) Just plain silly, in a TV show that wants us to take its treatment of the human condition seriously.

[DaddyFinn]

  On 12/20/2021 at 3:34 PM, Borderlander said:

Following up on Nyneave and Lan sleeping together and Rand and Egwene shacking uopin Episode 1, are we to assume that the young ladies of TV-WoT just don't care if they get pregnant? Traditional attitudes toward sex and marriage aren't all about male 'ownership' of women—women had to be very careful about having children if they did not have a strong family situation for the kids to be born into. If Egwene and Rand have been sleeping together for a while, what was her plan if she got pregnant? Is there a thriving community of young, single mothers in (the) Two Rivers? Shotgun weddings? Or are Rand and Egwene just 'stupid teenagers,' acting irresponsibly? And if that's the case, what is Nyneave's and Lan's excuse? What's Lan going to tell Moirane if he accidentally makes a little baby Dai'Shan? I guess we just pretend that these otherwise responsible characters just threw caution out the window? The Wisdom and the World's Greatest Warder... acting like stupid teenagers? Except, in TV-WoT, it's not stupid, because sex doesn't lead to babies unless the writers say so. 

 

It's not like in Randland they can just pop over to the local peddler's wagon and get some morning-after pill. Having all these characters getting it on without any acknowledgement of the serious consequences of sex makes the world-building for the TV show that much weaker. It feels like another instance of the invisible thumbprint of modern ideology superimposed on a (fictional) culture where it makes no sense: basically modern-day hookup culture completely divorced from the reality that sex leads to babies (even in fictional worlds.) Just plain silly, in a TV show that wants us to take its treatment of the human condition seriously.

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There's a herb or two in the books that people use for birth control. Don't remember what it's called. Of course there's some natural ways too though they are far from certain. I don't want to specify. ?

[Yojimbo]

  On 12/20/2021 at 3:34 PM, Borderlander said:

Following up on Nyneave and Lan sleeping together and Rand and Egwene shacking uopin Episode 1, are we to assume that the young ladies of TV-WoT just don't care if they get pregnant? Traditional attitudes toward sex and marriage aren't all about male 'ownership' of women—women had to be very careful about having children if they did not have a strong family situation for the kids to be born into. If Egwene and Rand have been sleeping together for a while, what was her plan if she got pregnant? Is there a thriving community of young, single mothers in (the) Two Rivers? Shotgun weddings? Or are Rand and Egwene just 'stupid teenagers,' acting irresponsibly? And if that's the case, what is Nyneave's and Lan's excuse? What's Lan going to tell Moirane if he accidentally makes a little baby Dai'Shan? I guess we just pretend that these otherwise responsible characters just threw caution out the window? The Wisdom and the World's Greatest Warder... acting like stupid teenagers? Except, in TV-WoT, it's not stupid, because sex doesn't lead to babies unless the writers say so. 

 

It's not like in Randland they can just pop over to the local peddler's wagon and get some morning-after pill. Having all these characters getting it on without any acknowledgement of the serious consequences of sex makes the world-building for the TV show that much weaker. It feels like another instance of the invisible thumbprint of modern ideology superimposed on a (fictional) culture where it makes no sense: basically modern-day hookup culture completely divorced from the reality that sex leads to babies (even in fictional worlds.) Just plain silly, in a TV show that wants us to take its treatment of the human condition seriously.

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If I remember correctly from Ep1, Marin and Bran cleared out (with a wink and a nod) so that Rand and Egs could get busy in the common room of the Winespring Inn.   So apparently everyone seems ok with premarital sex in Emonds Field in this version.   

[Gothic Flame]

Maybe I'm behind on current cultural standards, and unprotected sex is now considered "cool?"

Edited December 20, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Spelling

[Deviations]

  On 12/17/2021 at 5:03 PM, Elder_Haman said:

This is the first book. The extent of their romance at this point was - they are now in love. Which is pretty much where we're at in the show.

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And?

 

My point was the tone is different, not that they hadn't kindled a romance yet.

[Gothic Flame]

  On 12/20/2021 at 3:34 PM, Borderlander said:

What's Lan going to tell Moirane if he accidentally makes a little baby Dai'Shan? I guess we just pretend that these otherwise responsible characters just threw caution out the window? The Wisdom and the World's Greatest Warder... acting like stupid teenagers? Except, in TV-WoT, it's not stupid, because sex doesn't lead to babies unless the writers say so. 

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Hmm..2nd generation heir to the Malkier crown? It wouldn't surprise me if this a "good idea."

[ArrylT]

Regarding cultural sensibilities - I am pretty sure Robert Jordan said The Wheel of Time was  Post-Renaissance late 17th/early 18th century - as mention in this thread

 

 

 

Meanwhile

 

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1988/08/29/Historian-Early-Americans-led-lusty-sex-lives/7614588830400/

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Records into the late 1700s show premarital sex was widely accepted and 'pregnancy was frequently the prelude to marriage,' Larkin wrote. 'Nearly one-third of rural New England's brides were already with child.

'Pregnancies usually simply accelerated a marriage that would have taken place in any case,' the article said. 'Most rural communities simply accepted the 'early' pregnancies that marked so many marriages.'

 

 

https://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/sexs_first_revolution/

 

So basically it could easily be interpreted that The Wheel of Time was on the cusp of a sexual revolution, if not already entering it - and that is only if we're assuming WoT = American culture of a similar time period.

 

 

[Bruan]

  On 12/20/2021 at 3:49 PM, ArrylT said:

Regarding cultural sensibilities - I am pretty sure Robert Jordan said The Wheel of Time was  Post-Renaissance late 17th/early 18th century - as mention in this thread

 

 

 

Meanwhile

 

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1988/08/29/Historian-Early-Americans-led-lusty-sex-lives/7614588830400/

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Records into the late 1700s show premarital sex was widely accepted and 'pregnancy was frequently the prelude to marriage,' Larkin wrote. 'Nearly one-third of rural New England's brides were already with child.

'Pregnancies usually simply accelerated a marriage that would have taken place in any case,' the article said. 'Most rural communities simply accepted the 'early' pregnancies that marked so many marriages.'

 

 

https://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/sexs_first_revolution/

 

So basically it could easily be interpreted that The Wheel of Time was on the cusp of a sexual revolution, if not already entering it - and that is only if we're assuming WoT = American culture of a similar time period.

 

 

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only, the cultural sensibilities as they existed in the world of the wheel of time were laid out in the books and were varied. Some cultures were more conservative, no premarital sex etc... others were sexually liberal well beyond what would have been seen in our renaissance. There where cultures where couples we’re more reserved in their affections and cultures that were outright kinky. I still don’t see why they needed to change things for the show.

[KakitaOCU]

  On 12/20/2021 at 3:34 PM, Borderlander said:

It's not like in Randland they can just pop over to the local peddler's wagon and get some morning-after pill. Having all these characters getting it on without any acknowledgement of the serious consequences of sex makes the world-building for the TV show that much weaker. It feels like another instance of the invisible thumbprint of modern ideology superimposed on a (fictional) culture where it makes no sense: basically modern-day hookup culture completely divorced from the reality that sex leads to babies (even in fictional worlds.) Just plain silly, in a TV show that wants us to take its treatment of the human condition seriously.

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They can.  Min and Aviendha discuss it when Elayne gets pregnant.