tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

"no Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can touch the source and not know it"

 

 

And yet in EotW Moraine does exactly that for a lengthy conversation with Lan about her plans before she finally notices Nynaeve behind a tree.

It's like I said, you might hear a weird noise from your backyard.  But do you check or have you gotten so used to what that noise is that you just dismiss it as the dog?

I'm not saying it's great, but again, if I can find an explanation in five-ten seconds, then it's not that big of a deal.

[jh557]

10 hours ago, Jearom Gaidin said:

Didn’t have enough time in show to do as in books…

This Ter’amgreal picture for siuan is her way into TAR so she can see these dreams, good way for show to introduce the dreamworld to non-readers.

I have a post recently on the projecting of dreams in TAR in the Dragon Reborn which focuses on both the mechanics as well as intent for Rahvin, Sammael, and Be’lal in that particular book. While I guessed on mechanics and was confirmed  by another forum member in that regard the intent on the dream projections is a subjective matter open to debate amongst book readers.

For interpretations regarding siuan that you mentioned Ba’alzamon would have to be very close and targeting siuan and her dreams would have to be not warded unless she was in TAR frequently according to mechanics of the book.

 

They have had plenty of time to completely add storyline, but I understand that there are going to be changes so non-issue. I just feel that this was a weak change that again took a scene from the EF kids and Loial and just gave it to Siuan.   

 

I find this a horrible way to introduce TAR since it was not ever mentioned that they were possibly in TAR and non-readers have no idea that this is a dream versus a portal to a place in the physical world.  

 

I am assuming the Ter'angreal creates a dream shard within TAR since it appears to be possibly Siuan's childhood home and everything is stable/not constantly having little shifts. Siuan specifically stated that she had been having the same dream for weeks. Siuan just got back to TV and had been in Caemlyn for unknown reasons. In theory she could have taken the Ter'angreal with her to see those recurrent dreams as you are purposing but that begs the question why Moiraine would ever go anywhere without it her saddle bag even if it would be troublesome to do so just so they could constantly communicate while she is traveling.     

 

Others may have made the point somewhere in the thread that Ishy was causing Suian's dreams, but I have not made that point. I interpreted the dreams she mentioned as them alluding to that she has the actual Talent of Dreaming and nothing to do with the Forsaken.  

 

 

[phoenixtrinity]

Quote

  I hate the movie 'Elf' but anyone else I talk to at least likes it and thinks I'm crazy.

 

You know, you and I may not see eye-to-eye on the WoT show, but boy do I dislike the movie 'Elf', too. Hahaha. Never understood why it was so popular ?

 

Back to WoT, I do wish there were more episodes per season. I am not a fan of how rushed and short everything is in 2021 between TikTok, click bait articles, and people complaining on Reddit when a post is longer than five sentences. I'd be stoked if we got more than 8 episodes in future seasons.

[Yojimbo]

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

Isn't that sort of thing dismissed as "from the books?"

I suppose.   I guess I am just picking nits.   Of course this show has an awful lot of nits to pick in every episode.   Eventually it adds up to a show that becomes less and less based on the books.   

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

"no Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can touch the source and not know it"

 

 

Yes, this was something I brought up after episode 4. I couldn't remember it from the books but I thought that they would always have an "affinity" at the least, so found it really weird that nobody commented on that to Nynaeve prior to her channeling at the end of episode 4, even if she didn't know herself. 

[henfen]

34 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Then again, you're slipping in jabs at Maksim and Ihvon for no reason so I think I can read where that goes.  Love the idea that you want good LGBT+ representation but the idea that it's just part of who they are and not really dwelled on is somehow bad.

 

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  I understand this may go over many people's heads.  But please don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by henfen

[Gothic Flame]

Just now, Yojimbo said:

I suppose.   I guess I am just picking nits.   Of course this show has an awful lot of nits to pick in every episode.   Eventually it adds up to a show that becomes less and less based on the books.   

I agree wholeheartedly.

The show went from being some sort of adaptation to the range of "based upon", to "loosely based upon." Next tier will likely be "CW" to shipping Perrin with Berelain or Gaul.

[Yojimbo]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

And yet in EotW Moraine does exactly that for a lengthy conversation with Lan about her plans before she finally notices Nynaeve behind a tree.

It's like I said, you might hear a weird noise from your backyard.  But do you check or have you gotten so used to what that noise is that you just dismiss it as the dog?

I'm not saying it's great, but again, if I can find an explanation in five-ten seconds, then it's not that big of a deal.

See, that's the problem.  This show require a LOT of "finding an explanation that works" instead of, you know, just going with the original material.

 

And there is a mort of difference between Moraine not noticing someone 20 feet away who can channel and standing face to face with that person, as she has done with Nyn on multiple occasions.

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

I agree wholeheartedly.

The show went from being some sort of adaptation to the range of "based upon", to "loosely based upon." Next tier will likely be "CW" to shipping Perrin with Berelain or Gaul.

I am betting neither of those characters show up.   

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, henfen said:

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  Don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

Except it wasn't throwing sex and scandal into an asexual book.  It was casually showing two men who are in a romantic relationship and then a step further that there is a polyamorous relationship.  The only laugh at the situation is laughing at Nynaeve's ignorance and shock at it, not at the thing itself.

It's not thrown in the face, it's just there as part of the scene.  No one goes "Look at the Bi Poly couple!  Amazing!  One backwater woman asks a stupid question and gets laughed at while no one cares or comments on the actual relationship.  Next episode it is brought up a little, but not to go "OOh, look, sex!"  It's brought up in asking Stepin what his thoughts are, and he's not dismissive, more stating that he hadn't really thought about it.

I just honestly don't see how it's an in your face or scandalous take on the matter.  If we had female warders going already and Maksim was a woman sitting there holding hands with Ihvon no one would bat an eyelash or claim they were throwing sex at us.

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, henfen said:

I'll keep watching.  Sorta like watching a trainwreck.  I do sincerely hope that non-readers are enjoying it.  Episode 4 was the only one I didn't wish would hurry up and end before making it worse.

Best laugh I've had all week.

[notpropaganda73]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

And yet in EotW Moraine does exactly that for a lengthy conversation with Lan about her plans before she finally notices Nynaeve behind a tree.

It's like I said, you might hear a weird noise from your backyard.  But do you check or have you gotten so used to what that noise is that you just dismiss it as the dog?

I'm not saying it's great, but again, if I can find an explanation in five-ten seconds, then it's not that big of a deal.

 

Moiraine's comment in the book in that scene is something along the lines of "If you're staring at the wolf the mouse will bite you on the ankle". It implies that she was so focussed on the boys/Lan after Shadar Logoth that she didn't notice Nynaeve. 

 

It's not a huge deal in the show, but I do think that one of the Aes Sedai in a camp like that would have said something to her. Liandrin literally tries to poke at her to get info on Moiraine, would she not realise they have a connection or something like it in that scene? 

 

As I say, not a huge deal, but it's a little thing that doesn't make sense in my head - unless they are doing away with being able to sense the ability in others. But then I don't think so, as doesn't Moiraine's little training scene with Egwene essentially show that she can sense Egwene's ability? 

 

Meh, there are definitely bigger issues with the show and I'm just going in circles on this ha 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[phoenixtrinity]

3 minutes ago, henfen said:

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  Don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

 

So far everything in the show has felt extremely natural to me, more so than any other show I can think of, so I mean this genuinely when I say I'm surprised you feel that way. May I ask, do you also feel the show does a poor job with its depiction of many races and body types?

 

This is obviously just my opinion, but I feel that the world is so clearly how I envisioned WoT in terms of 'diversity' (in quotes because I feel diversity should just be the norm, as in real life) that it is what's fueling my admiration for the show so far besides my interest in the books. I can think of nothing else that includes many cultures, races, sexualities, and body types in a way that feels genuine. So to me that has been amazing.

[Vambram]

For me, the best theory that I have scene regarding Moiraine's explanation to Liandrin is that she was unaware of Nynaeve's ability to channel because of her block. Somehow, Nynaeve's block towards Saidar also acted as a method to mask her ability to channel, or connection to saidar. 

[dorotea]

5 hours ago, fra85uk said:

 

Because essentially all fathers need to be awful in Rafe of Time.

Mat father--> womenizer

Steppin father---> Beated his son

Father of Alanna's warder---> tried to kill his son

etc. etc.

I have a bad feeling about this. Then again at least Tam is still Tam.

[Deviations]

41 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, we see through it because we know the plot and what's going on.  Most sisters see Tar Valon as home and never want to leave.  Why would anyone want to leave the best city in the world where they have unlimited money and power and authority?  The idea is unthinkable and so they don't see through the deception.  You can see Alanna's tears and Maigan's anger over it.  They see it as a death sentence essentially.

 

 

Cadsuane rarely visited the tower.  Many sisters were away for long periods.  Death sentence?

[fra85uk]

3 minutes ago, dorotea said:

I have a bad feeling about this. Then again at least Tam is still Tam.

 

But, still, since he could not be butchered he was just downplayed...ah Rafe you are really a card ?

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Ok, so I haven't read all the replies since last night - but I am in process of a rewatch so I have some new observations that could generate discussion (might have already been brought up and I missed it, if so I apologize). 

 

#1. The Stone of Tear does appear in the background with the mountains - at like 2 min and 6 min. So that's cool. 

 

#2. Pretty sure Fain makes another appearance...when Moiraine is on the balcony after healing Matt (he walks down the street - I think?) 

 

#3. Does it make sense to anyone why Moiraine thinks that if someone gets between the D.O & the Dragon they'll die? I don't remember anything from the books or show that makes that idea make sense?

 

#4. Any guesses who Liandrin's "guy" is that Moiraine uses to threaten her? I'm thinking 

Spoiler

A Forsaken - maybe Ishy, himself? 

 

#5. Suian and Moiraine's discussion made it seem like Leane has no idea what's happening ... they'll have some explaining to do later on what her role is/what she is to Suian ... unless we think her role is largely cut?

 

#6. They're gonna have to explain why Loial is needed or would come with in this next episode - because having the Waygates be accessed with the power A) screws up the lore and B) looked pretty dumb

 

#7. Anybody know who the Red Sitters were that they panned by? 

 

#8. Why do we think they changed it that horses can't go into the Ways? Seems a little dumb and unnecessary? [Was that Bella still alive at the end? The horses just showing up when needed is a pretty weird writing plot-hole. And why isn't Bella front and center every scene - she might save the show!]

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Maximillion]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except it wasn't throwing sex and scandal into an asexual book.  It was casually showing two men who are in a romantic relationship and then a step further that there is a polyamorous relationship.  The only laugh at the situation is laughing at Nynaeve's ignorance and shock at it, not at the thing itself.

It's not thrown in the face, it's just there as part of the scene.  No one goes "Look at the Bi Poly couple!  Amazing!  One backwater woman asks a stupid question and gets laughed at while no one cares or comments on the actual relationship.  Next episode it is brought up a little, but not to go "OOh, look, sex!"  It's brought up in asking Stepin what his thoughts are, and he's not dismissive, more stating that he hadn't really thought about it.

I just honestly don't see how it's an in your face or scandalous take on the matter.  If we had female warders going already and Maksim was a woman sitting there holding hands with Ihvon no one would bat an eyelash or claim they were throwing sex at us.

 

 

Adds precisely zero to the story line, so the question is why are those scenes in the show?

Further, if they are going to do a scene between Siuan and Morraine, could the writers not have thought for just one second that it would make little sense to not discuss the search for the Dragon before 'on your knees'?? SMH.

 

 

[Meskell]

29 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I don't think it's necessarily a problem that Moraine didn't know Nynaeve could channel.  It's something women can sense but it's also something that can be overlooked.  In the books Moraine is not injured after Shadar Logoth and when Nynaeve creeps up on them Moraine doesn't notice for a while before suddenly realizing.  

Combine that with her dismissing Nynaeve for her age right away and maybe she just never bothered to check.  Kind of like hearing a noise outside but being so sure it's just the dog that you don't look out the window.

"I have people watching for their arrival." ("To the white tower since they're supposed to stay at the inn until I call for them.")  Just like last episode with telling Nynaeve "When I find them I will take you to them" despite already knowing where two of them were.

 

In the scenario, I’ve always wondered what would happen to an AS. Moiraine tells Nynaeve that she will take Nynaeve to them once she finds them. 
 

What would actually happen to Moiraine if she just never bothered taking Nynaeve to them?

[notpropaganda73]

Honestly, people getting annoyed about Moiraine and Siuan having sex just comes off as pathetic imo. It is so far and away from the actual problems with the show.

 

 

[dorotea]

4 minutes ago, phoenixtrinity said:

This is obviously just my opinion, but I feel that the world is so clearly how I envisioned WoT in terms of 'diversity' in quotes because I feel diversity should just be the norm, as in real life

 

This is an extraordinary urban American take, and I say extraordinary because being Russian implant in US for a very long time I can spot these kind of things and appreciate your PoV while at the same time laugh my head off.  Lets just say that I listened to a few Eastern European reviews of the show (Russian, Polish, Check youtubers) and all of them are very sarcastic of the shows take on the diversity, saying as much as 'this is how a San-Fransisco-an would imagine a rural settlement in the middle of nowhere mountains'. See, in real life, as in real life out there outside the developed world's urban areas there are generally no diversity the way you imagine it. Zero, zilch, nil diversity is a norm for rural areas because these folks have no financial means to travel or to mix until they go full scale immigration, but that's another story.

[WheelofJuke]

26 minutes ago, henfen said:

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  I understand this may go over many people's heads.  But please don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

I appreciate this viewpoint and appreciate you sharing it. Thank you.

[Raezold]

14 minutes ago, dorotea said:

I have a bad feeling about this. Then again at least Tam is still Tam.

 

He probably noticed Tigraine was pregnant, went out of his way to kill her and took the baby because his soldiers won't swim.

?

[KakitaOCU]

11 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

Adds precisely zero to the story line, so the question is why are those scenes in the show?

Further, if they are going to do a scene between Siuan and Morraine, could the writers not have thought for just one second that it would make little sense to not discuss the search for the Dragon before 'on your knees'?? SMH.

 

 

It shows their closeness, the line between public appearance and duty vs personal desire.  It shows us that the prior discipline was an act and nothing more.

But all that aside, it doesn't need to add to the story, it's showing an organic world where being something other than hetero and monogamous isn't a big deal.  It's showing that the world is organic and there are people who don't fit the norm and it's okay.