tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Agitel]

20 minutes ago, Windigo said:

LoTR movies were quite different from the books in many ways.   
From changing ages, Frodo from being in his 50's for most of the books,  to being much younger, Sam from an employee to a friend!  Many other changes to personalities, cutting and changing many of the story arcs, adding new ones, I think that so many have not read the Tolkien books ( or even ASoiaF) as often as they have series like WoT, so did not notice how many changed there were. 
I am an big re-reader, but while I re-read WoT, along with other series I enjoy every year, I only re-read ASoiaF before a new book came out, and Tolkien a dozen or so times. 

LoTR changes:  https://www.theonering.com/complete-list-of-film-changes/the-fellowship-of-the-ring/   
 

 

 

These "changes" are so nitpicky. Imagine if the show had Moiraine and Lan rescue Perrin and Egwene in the White Cloak camp like in the books, but maybe Nynaeve plays a larger role, or Moiraine stubs her toe and utters a curse. Or they shorten/simplify the rescue into a shorter or slightly different sequence in the rescue. A website like the above would list all that. But clearly any adaptation of that would hew more closely to the books than cutting it altogether and having Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve go in the completely opposite direction to be involved in an arc barely detailed in the books.

 

Now, I still was okay with what they did in episode four. Much of it was interesting and set things up. But this list of changes for Fellowship include a number of little details like "Gandalf bumped his head" and listing the pros and cons of that. I don't think a lot of the people feeling negative would be feeling negative if we still got the same plot points just adapted a little differently (like my White Cloak camp example above) I think many of them would be much happier. I don't think they'd be stewing about "Gandalf bumps his head" changes or needing text-to-screen literalism.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Agitel

[ArrylT]

21 minutes ago, Windigo said:

LoTR movies were quite different from the books in many ways.   
From changing ages, Frodo from being in his 50's for most of the books,  to being much younger, Sam from an employee to a friend!  Many other changes to personalities, cutting and changing many of the story arcs, adding new ones, I think that so many have not read the Tolkien books ( or even ASoiaF) as often as they have series like WoT, so did not notice how many changed there were. 
I am an big re-reader, but while I re-read WoT, along with other series I enjoy every year, I only re-read ASoiaF before a new book came out, and Tolkien a dozen or so times. 

LoTR changes:  https://www.theonering.com/complete-list-of-film-changes/the-fellowship-of-the-ring/   
 

 

 

I love how many times they put

 

"Con: This change is an invention of the scriptwriters and does not represent Tolkien’s work."

 

?

[FanofKnotai]

19 minutes ago, jh557 said:

They literally go to The Eye in the book based off Ishy dreams, the info that Loial provided about the Aiel's dying story, and just because they were trapped in Caemlyn. I get that the show has made a mistake/large deviation of stating that the DO is sealed at The Eye, but them going to The Eye being next to clueless about things is not really that different. And I know it felt super rushed in the show, but it was the third book when Ishy died that everybody was like wow that wasn't actually the DO and was just a Foresaken. 

They don’t go to the Eye “just because” of anything. After hearing the dreams. And PERRIN’s dying Aiel story and LOIAL’s recovering Jain Farstrider story. Moiraine knows that something is happening at the Eye and they have to alter their plans and get there before it does. Then being trapped had nothing to do with it either. They could’ve gone to TV through the ways just as easily as Fal Dara. As Loial mentions at least twice while they were inside them saying it would be easier to get there then going the rest of the way to Fal Dara. You can easily surmise that if Mo had been aware of the mentions in the dream earlier then the Eye would have probably been their destination all along. In the show going to the Eye as you said “felt super rushed” and made no since with the story we’ve been given thus far. They only had Mo’s word that it was important from a vaguely explained dream that Siuan had and not THREE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT sources, including three dreams(or six depending on how you’re counting) like in the books. 

[Kudzu]

Late again, sigh.

 

Thought it was a good episode, but the way some of it's been executed and the decisions they've made are stopping me from calling it one of the best.

 

The cold open was really nice, loved the glimpse of the Stone in the background. Don't really understand why Suian's dad wouldn't have gone with her though.

 

Logain bit in the hall was great. The next bit, while dramatic and well acted wasn't really that well thought out. There are so many ways Suian and Moiraine could have danced their way out of that, I get that they needed to setup a way for Moiraine to get penance, but it didn't work that well for me.

 

The Mat healing scene was great, interested to see how the rest of the dagger arc plays out.

 

I'm onboard with the Suian/Moiraine relationship. My thinking is the little paintings are dreamshard ter'angreal. I don't think they are getting access to tel'aran'rhiod proper or they are physically travelling anywhere.

 

I think that Suian is a dreamer, otherwise why would they put so much trust in them. I also think that Ishy has been messing with them though. Odd that people (Moiraine at least) think the Dark One's prison is at the Eye, I'm hoping this is a case of characters being wrong, rather than an actual change to Shayol Ghul.

 

I loved the Oath Rod scene, but hated that they used the actual Oath Rod. For a start, because of the 1st oath an Aes Sedai's oaths are already binding to a degree. We know that from the oaths made to Rand at Dumai's Wells. So using the rod wasn't really necessary. Also it's a very big departure from how it's used in the books, so they are going to need a very big future pay off to convince me it was a good idea.

 

Didn't love that the Way Gate was opened with the One Power. I assume Loial's there because they need him to navigate. So were the Ways still created for Ogier and if so how do they open them? How are the fades and Trolloc's using them? I'm sure there are answers to all these questions planned already, but I think it would have been simpler to just have Loial open the gate. Also would have given non-readers a better understanding why he's there.

 

And then we come to Mat, not really much to say. This is obviously because Barney couldn't make it back for E7&8 and they couldn't or chose not to re-cast for these episodes. The scene was very awkward, but I can't really blame the show. They had to make the edit with the Barney shots they had and they did about as well as could be expected I think.

[Windigo]

4 minutes ago, TheChief said:

You’re perfectly welcome to feel this way. It doesn’t change my feelings about the treatment of gay women in the books.

He had them in there for one thing, which no one else was doing. 

While yes in today's world there are flaws, I do not see what he wrote as being as harmful as many other older genre writers that proceeded RJ.   I am old enough to have been amazed at the cultural and gender differences that were included when I read tEoTW when it came out,   It was so new and open about many things that were just starting to make it into mainstream books and media. There were not just same gender relationships, but relationships between different races and cultures, and between different classes. 

The pillow friends though I think needs to be looked at differently, yes many were and could have been lesbians, but not necessarily. 
Growing up in earlier era's of all girl schools, boarding schools, and even in social lives there was a lot less mixing or opportunities for sexual exploration with people of the opposite sex, many girls in my generation "practiced"  with other girls before they had opportunities to be around "boys" unchaperoned.   I know RJ based some of the White Tower structure on early Convents, when you add in the lifespan differences that RJ talks of it makes even more sense. 

But throughout the books and especially New spring Moiraine and Siuan's relationship is more than just childhood fling or something they grew out of, but it is subtle, hidden behind their false hatred of each other to protect secrets. 

 

Quote

The Tower and the Sisters. Which is why, as Jordan explains in his Aes Sedai notes:
 

Between one-third and one-half of all Aes Sedai (possibly somewhat more) are either gay or (mainly) bisexual to one degree or another. This is in large part because relationships with men are exceedingly difficult: men age and die, many men find a relationship with a woman so powerful difficult. Lesbian relationships between Aes Sedai and non-Aes Sedai are not unknown, but they are not highly common; the same difficulties engendered with men by hugely differing life-spans also works against these, at least as more than dalliances.

... 
 The proportions of gay women to heterosexual among Aes Sedai is roughly the same as in the general population, but the fact that any sister who loves a man must watch him grow old and die while she changes not at all lead some Aes Sedai to invest a strong emotional, and sometimes sexual, component in their long-term friendships with other sisters. 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html

 

[flinn]

 After a particular scene in Walking Dead caused a stir, the show runner released a statement something like... "it is a show about dead people coming back to life as walking corpses, just how realistic do you expect it to be"... and I thought you just summed up every bit of lazy writing in the entire series. Just swallow it and move on....  yeah the Moiraine punishment debacle was a perfect example of lazy writing. Don't treat your audience like they are idiots.

[Agitel]

The first oath doesn't mean an Aes Sedai will keep her oath. It just requires that the Aes Sedai truly mean the oath at the time she makes it. She can't intend at that time to be duplicitous. But she can later have a change of heart and renege.

[FanofKnotai]

On 12/9/2021 at 10:30 PM, NinjaPowers975 said:

The reason for going to The Eye was always a weak point in the first book. Very rushed.

How was it rushed when the Eye was mentioned throughout almost the entire book? Rand’s dream in Baerlon. Rand’s dream on Domon’s boat. Rand’s dream after Four Kings. Perrin’s dream with the Tinkers. The story the Tinkers told Perrin and Elyas…once Moiraine FINALLY heard all these things on top of the story Loial told, she knew the Eye should have been their destination all along. How is that rushed? 

[Windigo]

33 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

These "changes" are so nitpicky. Imagine if the show had Moiraine and Lan rescue Perrin and Egwene in the White Cloak camp like in the books, but maybe Nynaeve plays a larger role, or Moiraine stubs her toe and utters a curse. Or they shorten/simplify the rescue into a shorter or slightly different sequence in the rescue. A website like the above would list all that. But clearly any adaptation of that would hew more closely to the books than cutting it altogether and having Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve go in the completely opposite direction to be involved in an arc barely detailed in the books.

 

Now, I still was okay with what they did in episode four. Much of it was interesting and set things up. But this list of changes for Fellowship include a number of little details like "Gandalf bumped his head" and listing the pros and cons of that. I don't think a lot of the people feeling negative would be feeling negative if we still got the same plot points just adapted a little differently (like my White Cloak camp example above) I think many of them would be much happier. I don't think they'd be stewing about "Gandalf bumps his head" changes or needing text-to-screen literalism.

I agree that list has things that are silly. But there were big changes too, like Frodo and Sams relationship and ages, it is a much different story with their ages similar and a friendship, than the books where Frodo is much older and Sam is his servant that calls him Master Frodo. 

 

[Yojimbo]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

The first oath doesn't mean an Aes Sedai will keep her oath. It just requires that the Aes Sedai truly mean the oath at the time she makes it. She can't intend at that time to be duplicitous. But she can later have a change of heart and renege.

Un, but wouldn't that then mean the other oaths could be broken just as easily.  "See, I didn't intend to ever make a weapon when I made the oath.  But then I had a change of heart."

[AusLeviathan]

17 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

I think that Suian is a dreamer, otherwise why would they put so much trust in them. I also think that Ishy has been messing with them though. Odd that people (Moiraine at least) think the Dark One's prison is at the Eye, I'm hoping this is a case of characters being wrong, rather than an actual change to Shayol Ghul.

There's no way the Dark One's prison is at the Eye.

 

I'm hoping for a scene where Ishy really lays into how stupid Moiraine was to bring the DR to him at the Eye and points out how easy it was to manipulate them all into doing what he wanted.

Edited December 12, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Windigo]

4 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

How was it rushed when the Eye was mentioned throughout almost the entire book? Rand’s dream in Baerlon. Rand’s dream on Domon’s boat. Rand’s dream after Four Kings. Perrin’s dream with the Tinkers. The story the Tinkers told Perrin and Elyas…once Moiraine FINALLY heard all these things on top of the story Loial told, she knew the Eye should have been their destination all along. How is that rushed? 

 It was hard to miss it was going to be a place they went since it was the name of the book. 
 

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Un, but wouldn't that then mean the other oaths could be broken just as easily.  "See, I didn't intend to ever make a weapon when I made the oath.  But then I had a change of heart."

 

No, because the other oaths on the rod are binding in themselves regardless of whether they have the oath to speak no word that is not true.

[FanofKnotai]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

Perhaps, not forgotten as much as found to be not as sufficiently grounded as other plot elements.

He focused on what he want the reader to focus on. Do you remember in SL while they were still on good terms with Mordeth, Rand looked over and saw Mat “clutching a dagger he had pulled from one of the piles”? I didn’t catch that line till the third or fourth time I read the book. Some things he hid in the text so they could be revealed later. When Moiraine talks about changing course to the Eye, for me it was an “ok that’s why he (Ba’alzamon) kept mentioning that. And at the end when he finally confronted Ba’alzamon I said to myself “No. Wait did he really trick him to get him there? He couldn’t have staged the Aiel, and that wondering guy at the stedding (Jain) all those years ago could he?”  To me it made since. Even though he only touched on it briefly before he made it the main issue. For that matter when Elyas talks about Hawkwing sending people across the ocean, who knew those same people would be the Seanchan in the second book?

[TheChief]

15 minutes ago, Windigo said:

While yes in today's world there are flaws, I do not see what he wrote as being as harmful as many other older genre writers that proceeded RJ. 

Thanks for your measured reply.

 

Respectfully, I disagree with you on this point. Simply showing gay women does not = good. There is a stereotype in the world that gay women are either 1) immature sexually, or 2) evil messed up man haters. There might have been an exception to this, but what I noticed was the repeated depictions of these harmful stereotypes.

 

so back on topic, yes yes yes to m & s’s relationship. 

 

[FanofKnotai]

15 minutes ago, Windigo said:

 It was hard to miss it was going to be a place they went since it was the name of the book. 
 

That’s what I’ve been trying to say to all the people who said it was “rushed” in the books ??‍♂️?

[jh557]

14 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

They don’t go to the Eye “just because” of anything. After hearing the dreams. And PERRIN’s dying Aiel story and LOIAL’s recovering Jain Farstrider story. Moiraine knows that something is happening at the Eye and they have to alter their plans and get there before it does. Then being trapped had nothing to do with it either. They could’ve gone to TV through the ways just as easily as Fal Dara. As Loial mentions at least twice while they were inside them saying it would be easier to get there then going the rest of the way to Fal Dara. You can easily surmise that if Mo had been aware of the mentions in the dream earlier then the Eye would have probably been their destination all along. In the show going to the Eye as you said “felt super rushed” and made no since with the story we’ve been given thus far. They only had Mo’s word that it was important from a vaguely explained dream that Siuan had and not THREE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT sources, including three dreams(or six depending on how you’re counting) like in the books. 

You're right it was Perrin's Aiel story and Loial's was from Jain and there were multiple sources. I'm sorry I didn't get the info in there correctly. I get the point that you are making though because I have made it earlier.  I have posted prior that having Siuan introduce it was poor writing and took good scenes from the EF folk and Loial without good cause. So no arguments there. You are right that they could have gone to TV or Tear or anywhere once in the Ways. I just meant that were getting out of Caemlyn in a hurry to avoid the shadowspawn and Elaida's interest in Rand and thats when we were introduced to the Ways. We only have the one destination in the show though. All I am trying to say is the show deviated and had these last 2 episodes without any book to back them up, so they had to come up with a return to the book. They sadly used Siuan to get to The Eye instead the sources from the book that you listed. End of the day they are still going to The Eye and they can get back to the actual storyline that we are familiar with albeit without Mat. Understood it was weaker. I agree, but we are in theory back to book storyline hopefully.  

 

My comment was more for the trying to act like us not knowing that right now in the show that Rand is the Dragon and him not have finished other storylines/prophecies was a huge issue to going to The Eye. He had not done any of those things when they first went into The Eye in the books either, so freaking out about him going to battle the DO at the Eye without Callandor or other prophecies being fulfilled is what happened in the books as well. I get that it was Forsaken and not the DO and fully expect it to be the same in the show despite some poor dialogue calling The Eye the DO's prison.         

[FanofKnotai]

6 minutes ago, TheChief said:

Respectfully, I disagree with you on this point. Simply showing gay women does not = good. There is a stereotype in the world that gay women are either 1) immature sexually, or 2) evil messed up man haters.

I don’t agree that this what he was trying to depict in this series. He specifically says how the majority of the RA have a dislike for men because of the nature of their ajah’s main purpose but not all of them are evil man haters or even depicted as such. And by the way Liandrins sexuality is NEVER mentioned. Ever. So we have no idea if she likes women any more than she likes men.  

[Ralph]

15 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

I don’t agree that this what he was trying to depict in this series. He specifically says how the majority of the RA have a dislike for men because of the nature of their ajah’s main purpose but not all of them are evil man haters or even depicted as such. And by the way Liandrins sexuality is NEVER mentioned. Ever. So we have no idea if she likes women any more than she likes men.  

I think meant Galina

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, jh557 said:

They literally go to The Eye in the book based off Ishy dreams, the info that Loial provided about the Aiel's dying story, and just because they were trapped in Caemlyn. I get that the show has made a mistake/large deviation of stating that the DO is sealed at The Eye, but them going to The Eye being next to clueless about things is not really that different. And I know it felt super rushed in the show, but it was the third book when Ishy died that everybody was like wow that wasn't actually the DO and was just a Foresaken. 

Ok so Morraine stated that they prophesies and myths had been translated and changed hence they don’t know who the dragon will be or the powers they will have. I imagine the first thing the black ajah would have done is confuse where the dark ones prison is. 
 

So no this is not a deviation in the lore, as with the whole DR and who it is, the Aes Sedai are working blind and basing what they know on bad information. 

[Yojimbo]

40 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

No, because the other oaths on the rod are binding in themselves regardless of whether they have the oath to speak no word that is not true.

I may have misinterpreted your first post.   You were arguing that when giving an oath without the oath rod they could "mean it in the moment" but then change their minds?    I guess that could happen.  It still sounds a bit sketchy to me, but I'm not going to argue against it being possible.  

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I may have misinterpreted your first post.   You were arguing that when giving an oath without the oath rod they could "mean it in the moment" but then change their minds?    I guess that could happen.  It still sounds a bit sketchy to me, but I'm not going to argue against it being possible.  

 

Yes. What I meant was the oath "to speak no word that isn't true" means that at the time they swear the oath they have to truly mean to keep it. They can't say the words if they are intending to break them.. But that doesn't bind them to keep it in the future if they actually have a change of heart. I know Jordan discussed this in interviews, and I even think it is commented on in the series, possibly ACOS, but I'm just going from memory. The First Oath applies in the moment to what they know/believe to be true at that time, but if their knowledge/beliefs change...

Edited December 12, 2021 by Agitel

[FanofKnotai]

20 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I think meant Galina

Ok. But I don’t think he says anything about hers either. The only main character lesbian is Elaida. And she’s not a man hater. She’s a people hater. She treats everybody like crap. ?

[Kudzu]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

The first oath doesn't mean an Aes Sedai will keep her oath. It just requires that the Aes Sedai truly mean the oath at the time she makes it. She can't intend at that time to be duplicitous. But she can later have a change of heart and renege.

 

I could be remembering it wrong but I didn't think the Aes Sedai that swore to Rand were able to go against their oath's even though they wanted to. I'm sure there was some passage where they were trying to work out exactly how far they could push the oath, that there was some wriggle room, but that they were actually bound to core of it.

[jh557]

28 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Ok so Morraine stated that they prophesies and myths had been translated and changed hence they don’t know who the dragon will be or the powers they will have. I imagine the first thing the black ajah would have done is confuse where the dark ones prison is. 
 

So no this is not a deviation in the lore, as with the whole DR and who it is, the Aes Sedai are working blind and basing what they know on bad information. 

So they were able to confuse the whole world on the prison not being Shayol Ghul? Because it was common knowledge and there was a catechism in the books about it. 

 

The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator in the moment of creation. The hand of the Creator shelters us all, and the Light protects us from the Shadow.

 

If this is how you feel and its helps justify it for you, I'm good with that. You could be right. I just think it was a possible miss by the writers or attempt at misdirection that have rubbed people like myself the wrong way