tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Zarathustra]

30 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Someone mentioned Semirage "needing" to go to Seanchan because she wouldn't have fit in otherwise. But Rahvin himself was very dark of skin and just inserted himself into Andor without much fuss.

No, I think it's a bit different than that.  I think RJ was touching on the after effects of the apocalypse, the world reforming (literally and figuratively), and then stagnating--it seemed to rely upon the invocation of the local opinions,  from say a classical pov, with regards to light and dark. Tuon certainly stood out in W-Randland as being unique--as Semihage would have.  It mostly seemed to depend upon the pov of the character (or the narrator) with regards to that.

 

It was always a bit difficult (sometimes impossible) to figure out an entity's real-world Counterpart.  Illian was easy (its name + "the companions" + Stepaneos + similarities between its capitol and Sparta (no walls) = Greece) and, to me, the first hint that RL was a version of our world.  Then again, they talk like Irish pirates so I could be wrong.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zarathustra

[Andromedus]

Man I'm so glad they are changing things, I loved this ep.

 

I do wish they'd have given us 10 eps, my main qualms with the show still are the rushed parts and some of the editing, but to be fair, the EOTW bit comes out of nowhere in the books as well.  I think RJ was obviously finding his way in this book, show is doing what it can with some of weaker bits and also not trying to look like a fellowship of the ring rip off quest

 

- The acting is getting better and better.  Loial's hair bothers me but otherwise love the character, can't wait to see him get angry.

 

- Nynaeve is SO MUCH BETTER in the show, thank you for not making her out to be a shrew.

 

- One of RJ's greatest weaknesses was how he wrote women, show is rectifying that ??

 

- To non-readers I would imagine the Dragon identity should be getting obvious but my wife still thinks it's another character and I don't want to spoil it

 

- Excited to see the Ways

 

- Wondering if we will get "Balthagnor" at the Eye instead of the gruesome twosome

 

- Seanchan hint with the ships was nicely done

 

I wish these last two episodes were 2 hours each but pumped to see how they end season 1!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zarathustra]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

What is this thing of Moiraine taking the darkness into herself? 

 

Is this coming back later? 

Yeah, that was another scene that I didn't care for--as well as the - "it's feeding on and linked to the darkness in him" bit.  That really trivialized an important Mat event and the "power" required to cleanse him.

[RhienneAgain]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Is she unique because of her skin color? Am I missing something? I've seen this argument many times before but I still don't get it.

I think it's possibly more that the Seanchan look very distinctive from people of other nations. In fact all of the nationalities in Randland have clear visual markers ranging from everything from skin colour to jewellery choices. Apart from the Two Rivers woollens there doesn't seem to be too much evidence of sticking to people from each part of Randland being identifiable on sight. I actually still think the Seanchan will have clear identifiers (at least I really hope they do the nails, hair etc.) as the Airl dress is also being made really distinctive.

[swollymammoth]

"On your knees." 

 

Lol. The fact that so many people thought this line was cool just goes to show that the standard for well written female characters is now just "have them boss people around." 

 

Kinky. 

 

I 100% guarantee that the scene where Rand/Taim (I don't quite remember) tells the Aes Sedai "Kneel or you will be knelt" after Dumai's Wells is never going to happen in this show. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Sanderson did say ... A second time I think, that this episode was his favorite of the series.

 

Interesting.

 

 

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Sanderson did say ... A second time I think, that this episode was his favorite of the series.

 

Interesting.

 

 

 

I think before it aired he had only read the script, and his comments were based on that. Unless he repeated himself since.

[swollymammoth]

1 minute ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Sanderson did say ... A second time I think, that this episode was his favorite of the series.

 

Interesting.

Brandon has also been very clear that he was pretty troubled with the direction the show was taking until he finally decided to just screw it and not care about it anymore. 

 

His advisements weren't about how to make the best WoT show. They were about helping Rafe's show be the best version of itself. He's judging the show's merit entirely from the point of, "Is Rafe accomplishing what he set out to accomplish?" 

 

Which of course he is. It's just a pity that Rafe set out to make a crappy show which features characters who share the same names as the ones from WoT. 

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

Brandon has also been very clear that he was pretty troubled with the direction the show was taking until he finally decided to just screw it and not care about it anymore. 

 

His advisements weren't about how to make the best WoT show. They were about helping Rafe's show be the best version of itself. He's judging the show's merit entirely from the point of, "Is Rafe accomplishing what he set out to accomplish?" 

 

Which of course he is. It's just a pity that Rafe set out to make a crappy show which features characters who share the same names as the ones from WoT. 

Wow that is one way to twist his words to suit your narrative.  Well done and good luck with that.

[Agitel]

Deleted. Not my business.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Agitel

[swollymammoth]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

Wow that is one way to twist his words to suit your narrative.  Well done and good luck with that.

Brandon has been very clear about this. He wasn't sure about the direction the show was taking, spent a few days doing hard thinking, and eventually decided that his job was to help Rafe make the best version of his story (not RJ's story).

 

He has said that his breakthrough came when he decided to stop thinking about the show as WoT. 

 

He has also been clear that he is judging the show based on how well it nails Rafe's vision of WoT. 

 

Brandon likes Rafe's vision, so he likes the show. It's that simple.  

[chri5]

1 hour ago, WOTReader2 said:

 

You don't need a sex scene to show any of that, though. A hug and a joke is enough to show that the whole thing was a façade. In the end, the series has no time to waste and they need to focus on the main points of the story. This important point was telling Siuan that she thinks she has found the Dragon Reborn; a pretty big deal considering they have risked their lives for it.

 

But, I also don't agree with showing it as a façade this early on, anyway. I think it would have been better that this was left with maybe a small clue, indicating something wasn't quite normal. They then should have proceeded with the banishment and given more time to developing Loial and the other main characters (Rand, Matt, and Perrin, in particular).

Remember in New Spring when they're cataloging the babies, and Siuan explains to Moiraine the reason why there are so many babies born during war?

 

Same thing, just no babies. 

[MaxZorin]

The Sanche woman should have been stilled and deposed the moment she suggested using the Oath Rod in that manner.  

 

The Hall reacting as if this is a commonplace workaday occurrence was disappointing 

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, MaxZorin said:

The Sanche woman should have been stilled and deposed the moment she suggested using the Oath Rod in that manner.  

 

The Hall reacting as if this is a commonplace workaday occurrence was disappointing 

 

This was actually the original use of Binders in the AoL

[Agitel]

7 minutes ago, MaxZorin said:

The Sanche woman should have been stilled and deposed the moment she suggested using the Oath Rod in that manner.  

 

The Hall reacting as if this is a commonplace workaday occurrence was disappointing 

 

I took it as a standard extreme punishment in the TV-verse, kind of like how it was used in the AOL, so not unheard of. 

 

I'm not sure what is so suspicious about Moiraine traveling about the world bringing back powerful channelers to the Tower.

[swollymammoth]

Can I just say that I'm kind of tired of people defending stuff in the show by pointing out that this or that change is justified by the WoT lore? 

 

The WoT showrunners do not care about WoT lore. Whenever it's gotten in the way of their vision, their solution has almost always been to change the lore, change the characters. Rafe's headcanon is more sacred to him than actual canon. 

 

So please, if we could all just stop. You can't just appeal to the lore to justify decisions made by people who have proven that they do not respect the lore themselves. 

 

This is either an adaptation of WoT (in which case the lore would matter because it would form the backbone from which the new, TV adapted story would spring) or it's a "new turning of the wheel" (in which lore is referenced only when it's convenient). 

 

You can't have it both ways. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by swollymammoth

[chri5]

37 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I really hope the Mat thing is part of the story, in order to get PF and the dagger involved, rather than just due to him leaving the show.

 

If Mat stays in TV, then he is never on the road with Perrin and the Shienarans.  Where he doesn't do much except get sick.

 

The problem is how does spoiler get the dagger and the other spoiler thing to make them chase him?  It will change some character decision making and motivations have to be different than in the books, but it's really just the DR's angst at being the DR and not trusting Aes Sedai.  Cut Mat out of that and have the TV events in TDR happen in season 2 instead with Mat never going to the ocean.  But how does he do the thing?

 

This might be hard to write their way out of, but not impossible.  Especially if SS still goes to Fal Dara, she can just bring Mat along for the trip.

 

"Your time with the Aes Sedai has changed you..." lol

 

35 minutes ago, Ralph said:

What is this thing of Moiraine taking the darkness into herself?

 

I'm pretty sure it was trying to go into her, but then she forced it back into the dagger.

 

I have a feeling that the way she said Mat could never touch it again was supposed to highlight that he had a special connection, but maybe that is just my foreknowledge assuming that.

 

30 minutes ago, Andromedus said:

I do wish they'd have given us 10 eps, my main qualms with the show still are the rushed parts and some of the editing, but to be fair, the EOTW bit comes out of nowhere in the books as well.  I think RJ was obviously finding his way in this book, show is doing what it can with some of weaker bits and also not trying to look like a fellowship of the ring rip off quest

 

- Excited to see the Ways

- Wondering if we will get "Balthagnor" at the Eye instead of the gruesome twosome

- Seanchan hint with the ships was nicely done

 

Fal Dara and the EOTW did seem to come out of nowhere.  It was TV or bust, and then suddenly they went to Fal Dara.  I know there were reasons, but thery didn't even get to Fal Dara until page 689 out of 814.

 

Also, I hope beyond hope they keep the Bors scene from the end.

 

The Ways could be very cool if done well.  I have high hopes. More worried about Machin Shin.

 

The "gruesome twosome" lol

I missed that Seanchan hint on the first watch,

 

26 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I think it's possibly more that the Seanchan look very distinctive from people of other nations. In fact all of the nationalities in Randland have clear visual markers ranging from everything from skin colour to jewellery choices. Apart from the Two Rivers woollens there doesn't seem to be too much evidence of sticking to people from each part of Randland being identifiable on sight. I actually still think the Seanchan will have clear identifiers (at least I really hope they do the nails, hair etc.) as the Airl dress is also being made really distinctive.

Loial addresses this when he talks to Rand.  Red hair is the only reliable physical sign to tell where a human comes from. 

[MaxZorin]

If you need 10 episodes, don't agree to 8.  Unless your vanity and ego are such that you can't resist taking whatever you can get.  

You can always blame your sub-standard end result on not getting 10.   Somebody else's fault, really.  

 

[chri5]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

Can I just say that I'm kind of people defending stuff in the show by pointing out that this or that change is justified by the WoT lore? 

 

The WoT showrunners do not care about WoT lore. Whenever it's gotten in the way of their vision, their solution has almost always been to change the lore, change the characters. Rafe's headcanon is more sacred to him than actual canon. 

 

So please, if we could all just stop. You can't just appeal to the lore to justify decisions made by people who have proven that they do not respect the lore themselves. 

 

This is either an adaptation of WoT (in which case the lore would matter because it would form the backbone from which the new, TV adapted story would spring) or it's a "new turning of the wheel" (in which lore is referenced only when it's convenient). 

 

You can't have it both ways. 

Just as you can choose to be disappointed in the show, we can choose to enjoy it how we like.

 

I enjoy finding parallels to the original and figuring out how they will still get to the same end result.  Just as the turnings of the pattern are described in the books.

[derecho]

26 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

"On your knees." 

 

Lol. The fact that so many people thought this line was cool just goes to show that the standard for well written female characters is now just "have them boss people around." 

 

Kinky. 

 

I 100% guarantee that the scene where Rand/Taim (I don't quite remember) tells the Aes Sedai "Kneel or you will be knelt" after Dumai's Wells is never going to happen in this show. 

 

I disagree with this take on this line. It's something between the two of them that gives context to their relationship, i.e., that when it's in private Siuan is not in charge like she is publicly as the Amyrlin. Consider also when Moiraine calls her "Mother" in the same scene, it demonstrates other facets of their relationship. and Siuan's character traits.

 

I don't think a line like this precludes Taim's line at all, particularly given the circumstances surrounding it. With that said, if it's left out I'll be really disappointed ?

[chri5]

1 minute ago, MaxZorin said:

If you need 10 episodes, don't agree to 8.  Unless your vanity and ego are such that you can't resist taking whatever you can get.  

You can always blame your sub-standard end result on not getting 10.   Somebody else's fault, really.  

 

If my choice is fewer episodes than I want, or no show, I'll take the show in fewer episodes.  As a fan or as a show runner.

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You can't have it both ways. 

 

Or maybe the world is more complicated than black and white and tiring assumptions about what's in the mind of the show runners. ?‍♂️

[chri5]

1 minute ago, derecho said:

 

I disagree with this take on this line. It's something between the two of them that gives context to their relationship, i.e., that when it's in private Siuan is not in charge like she is publicly as the Amyrlin. Consider also when Moiraine calls her "Mother" in the same scene, it demonstrates other facets of their relationship. and Siuan's character traits.

 

I don't think a line like this precludes Taim's line at all, particularly given the circumstances surrounding it. With that said, if it's left out I'll be really disappointed ?

You know, I just realized how that mirrors the relationship that Lan and Nynaeve end up getting into where the person in charge changes based upon public or private. 

 

At least I think it was them.

[swollymammoth]

Just now, MaxZorin said:

If you need 10 episodes, don't agree to 8.  Unless your vanity and ego are such that you can't resist taking whatever you can get.  

You can always blame your sub-standard end result on not getting 10.   Somebody else's fault, really. 

I'm a little more sympathetic than this. This is an enormous production and Rafe (like him or not) slaved over getting this thing made. If the decision was between 8 and 10, of course you'd take ten. But realistically, his decision was between 8 and 0, and after all the effort he'd invested into getting the show made, I can't fault him for taking the deal. 

 

I can fault him for using his time poorly and completely misallocating the resources he was given. 

[Andromedus]

20 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Brandon has been very clear about this. He wasn't sure about the direction the show was taking, spent a few days doing hard thinking, and eventually decided that his job was to help Rafe make the best version of his story (not RJ's story).

 

He has said that his breakthrough came when he decided to stop thinking about the show as WoT. 

 

He has also been clear that he is judging the show based on how well it nails Rafe's vision of WoT. 

 

Brandon likes Rafe's vision, so he likes the show. It's that simple.  

You're twisting his words but I get it, you're disappointed.

 

I see the show as a way to improve and fix so much about WOT that was either unecessary plot/bloat or just not interesting.

 

Also I could not care less what Sanderson thinks either way, not a fan of his and just reread AMOL ???