tv show spoilers S1E2: Shadow's Waiting

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I’d agree on some of the trolloc CGI. The magic looked pretty great.

I agree with this. I didn't think the Trollocs looked "bad" per se. But there were definitely a couple of duds.

 

There is some clunky dialogue. But that seems to be the exception, not the rule. 

[Beidomon]

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't know about this majority/minority thing. Because I also felt E2 was far stronger than E1. 

 

What I liked:

Perrin's initial meeting with the wolves was fantastic.

Rand blowing up at Moiraine. I'm very impressed with Josha.

Mat finding the dagger. (Was Fain whistling when he came into town? I'll have to go back and rewatch. Love Fain, by the way.)

The Whitecloaks. For all the whinging about their outfits, they were formidable. Valda in particular is wonderful.

Better character moments. I liked Egwene and Moiraine (though I felt her explanation about avoiding the oaths was poorly written).

 

What I didn't like:

They rushed Shadar Logoth. They should have built Mashadar more slowly. It was just sort of appeared and ate the horse.

Getting out of Shadar Logoth didn't make sense. Mashadar moved too quickly IMO - the escape felt very "plot armor".

 

And now, I have to hit pause because I won't get a chance to watch E3 until after work. 

Lol I don’t get you. You’re clearly one of the smartest contributors here and then go and do something like this. ? The stuff you say you liked can be reduced down to maybe 10-15 minutes of content. And then you agree that they completely screwed over Shadar Logoth - which is one of the single biggest set pieces of WOT’s opening act. That’s a hard fail for me. In the meantime, you’ve got an episode that’s cutting between daytime and nighttime so frequently I almost got epilepsy. It was lousy compared to E1. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Beidomon said:

The stuff you say you liked can be reduced down to maybe 10-15 minutes of content.

Those were the things that stood out to me. But the thing about it that I liked was that it slowed down and gave me a chance to get to know the characters better. 

 

Maybe the biggest thing about this episode for me was that the tone felt more like Wheel of Time and less like "generic fantasy show episode". The pacing was stronger (with the exception of the end), the characters settled in. The actors got more of a chance to show me their chops.

 

Yes, it still feels like it's moving a little too quickly for my taste. It wasn't a home run. But I left this episode wanting more rather than worried that the series was going to be bad.

[Katherine]

54 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I’d agree on some of the trolloc CGI. The magic looked pretty great.

 

I don’t know whether to call the direction low quality or not. Maybe some editing for sure. 
 

The writing - well people know my opinions on some of their choices. But I can’t say the dialogue is terrible or anything. 

My adjective would be amateur instead of terrible. 

 

And great point about the Magic. The CGI on that was GREAT. Maybe thats where all the effort/money went?

 

[ForsakenPotato]

thoughts after one watch, with two friends (one who heard me tell a version of EotW but hasn't read the books, one who is completely new to the material):

 

pros:

- Shadar Logath architecture looked very close to what I pictured while reading

- never expected Moiraine and Lan would add comic relief, but I'm surprisingly enjoying it a lot. When M wakes up in SL and realizes where he took them was particularly good. when she said "don't touch anything" my friend groaned beside me "oh god the kiddos are going to touch everything aren't they".

- thought the Moiraine / whitecloak confrontation was a good illustration of not lying but still misleading and I liked the dramatic tension. that said, why would the questioner not just ask better questions? like for example, "are you an Aes Sedai, answer yes or no"...that's clearly what he wants to know since he doesn't talk to anyone else.

- I like the scenes with Rand and Egwene, I think they have good chemistry and the balance of being frustrated with each other while also deeply caring for each other feels accurate

- Glad they are doing the dreams, and imho making them appropriately weird and unsettling

- Nyneave sneaking up was much less weird in context than it seemed from the previews, since Moiraine is either unconscious or close to it and both of them would be in significant pain (and she's the one who notices in the book I think).

 

cons:

- I like that the whitecloaks are scarier than in the books, but it's maybe a little overdone? eating a fancy meal while watching someone burn feels like superhero movie villain stuff. also don't understand how they could kill an Aes Sedai in the first place.

- Missed having the Mordeth meeting, it made SL much creepier

- Confused why Moiraine's wound from the trolloc affects her so much slower than it does Tam. Seems like a similar sized injury with similar placement.

- Missed the scene where Moiraine heals the horses but doesn't have to heal Bela. Given they want to play up the "who is the dragon" angle I think they could drop some more hints like that without giving it away too obviously (especially with the gender changes--it could still either be Rand or Egwene and I think it's already obvious to people who haven't read the books it's not gonna Mat or Perrin, and obvious to people who have read the books it's Rand)

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Mat finding the dagger.

There's a quick glimpse of a figure moving past the doorway behind Mat when he's examining the dagger. Watch closely. ?

[Rand the Plumber]

13 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

If anything the ferryman killed himself with Moraine. 

 

just sayin *innocently whistles* 

 

Suicide by Aes Sedai?  But yes, I do agree that he was accessory to his own death, while Moiraine stood firm and did her duty.

 

Overall I liked this episode more than the first, although I think that both of them are firmly in the "good, but not great" category.  Character development is going well, although I like Matt's characterisation less now than I did before, and I don't think he's coming off quite as I would have hoped.

 

I was very attentive to Moiraine's verbal fencing with the CotL, and I like how she described herself as the daughter of a fallen house, which was a nice nod to those of us who know her story.  I liked the casting, and thought that Geofram Bornhald was absolutely perfect.  Eamon Valda was very different to my imagination, but he has now transplanted my previous head-canon image: he was pretty close to perfect.  I just thought that he came off a little bit too psychopathic while he was barbecuing the Aes Sedai.  I would have expected him to be a bit more dismissive of her, rather than gloating over her slow demise.  Also, was Book-Valda a Questioner?  I don't recall that he was.

 

Disappointed that Shadar Logoth was not given more screen time, and thought the pacing was off there.  Also disappointed that we only got a hint of Mordeth.  The change to Mashadar took a moment for me to get used to, but I can see why it was done, and it was very effective.

 

All in all, it was a good watch.  My partner, who doesn't like fantasy, watched the first two episodes with me "under protest", according to him.  He has now gone out for the evening, and was unable to hide his annoyance that I'm going to watch episode three without him.  "Don't you dare tell me what happens until I see it," was the remonstration, so I think that's another fan.

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Rand the Plumber said:

 

Also, was Book-Valda a Questioner?  I don't recall that he was.

 

I assume he's been merged with Asagawa or whatever his name was. Which is fine to be honest.

Edited November 19, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Rand the Plumber]

Just now, MasterAblar said:

 

I assume he's been merged with Asagawa or whatever his name was. Which is fine to be honest.

 

Possibly.  That would mean that quite a large CotL subplot would have to be excised or changed.  It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but for some reason it is one of the long-running WoT sub-plots which I find most memorable.

[Wassup]

I am not sure why, but I enjoyed Nynaeve's return.

 

I liked the "balance" of the Whitecloaks, i.e. Valda vs Bornhald.  We kill witches! vs. Go find a witch to heal that since we cannot help you.

 

Would have liked more time in Shadar Logoth with trollocs being forced to go in.  It would have been more satisfying seeing them be consumed rather than the horse.

[Dorkmeyer]

I usually don't get overly upset with tv or movie adaptations of books, especially looooong book series, BUT I just have a major problem with Whitecloaks capturing Aes Sedai and cutting off their hands to prevent channeling. I guess they won't have Rand's hand cut off later in the series because apparently that would take away half his power or prevent him from making certain weaves.

And what's up with having Perrin ax his wife in the first episode? I mean sometimes I wished he axed Faile in the books but...

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Dorkmeyer said:

I just have a major problem with Whitecloaks capturing Aes Sedai and cutting off their hands to prevent channeling.

IIRC, the Aes Sedai often train by using their hands. While they are able to channel without them, they've effectively hobbled themselves into being reliant on their hands. I think we will find out in short order that hands are not a necessary component to channeling.

[Seraphine]

3 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

 

- Missed the scene where Moiraine heals the horses but doesn't have to heal Bela. Given they want to play up the "who is the dragon" angle I think they could drop some more hints like that without giving it away too obviously (especially with the gender changes--it could still either be Rand or Egwene and I think it's already obvious to people who haven't read the books it's not gonna Mat or Perrin, and obvious to people who have read the books it's Rand)

 

This is crazy subtle, but it's still there. I can't pull up the video right now (at work), but what I remember: when Lan comes to stop her when she's healing the horses, the small horse (Bela) is standing in the background hanging out all chill (while the horse she's healing is on the ground until she's done healing it).

[Skipp]

16 minutes ago, Dorkmeyer said:

I usually don't get overly upset with tv or movie adaptations of books, especially looooong book series, BUT I just have a major problem with Whitecloaks capturing Aes Sedai and cutting off their hands to prevent channeling. I guess they won't have Rand's hand cut off later in the series because apparently that would take away half his power or prevent him from making certain weaves.

And what's up with having Perrin ax his wife in the first episode? I mean sometimes I wished he axed Faile in the books but...

 

Keep in mind that intense pain can prevent being able to calm yourself to be able to access the One power.  Having your hands cut off and beginning to smolder might have something to do with that as well.

[ForsakenPotato]

I'm personally less concerned they cut her hands off and more curious how they were able to do that in the first place. I'm sure we will find out, but only things I can think of are some mechanism or object that can shield the sister, sneaking up and surprise removing hands (jump out of the bushes with garden shears? how fast can you cut hands off? seems hard? what about warders?), or collaboration with individuals who could shield the sister.

[MasterAblar]

I mean just knock her out and then cut off her hands no? Aes Sedai are still human with human senses, not that hard to sneak up on one.

Edited November 19, 2021 by MasterAblar

[matlockman]

I surprised at the number of negative comments, I though this episode was very entertaining. I had no expectations it would follow the immense books in any way but themes and it does. As Fans its seems we need to be supporting this (its likely only to get better). After all, it its cancelled after season 2 - we're the ones who will be complaining. 

[ForsakenPotato]

@MasterAblar That's a good point, or they could have nabbed her while she was sleeping, or I forgot about forkroot as an option.  The fact that it happened offscreen made me jump to conclusions that they have some secret weapon. I'm hoping we end up with some reasonable explanation on the show for how it's done, but it's just a curiosity/nitpick thing, not a major issue for me.

[Brytac]

Does my memory serve right in that it was Lan that sneaked up on Nyneave unheard?

 

If so....can you just imagine the meeting deciding the scene.

 

so this bloody book says the seasoned warrior sneaks up on the naïve village girl in the woods.

 

You guys know what would make it better...if the naïve girl sneaked up on the experienced outdoorsman!!

 

Great idea...good show chap, bravo.

 

 

How do they get these bloody ideas?????  ?

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, Brytac said:

Does my memory serve right in that it was Lan that sneaked up on Nyneave unheard?

 

If so....can you just imagine the meeting deciding the scene.

 

so this bloody book says the seasoned warrior sneaks up on the naïve village girl in the woods.

 

You guys know what would make it better...if the naïve girl sneaked up on the experienced outdoorsman!!

 

Great idea...good show chap, bravo.

 

 

How do they get these bloody ideas?????  ?

In the book Nynaeve sneaks up on Lan and Moiraine after Shadar Logoth.  Nynaeve overhears part of their conversation before Moiraine senses her ability to channel and notices her.

 

Also Nynaeve is shown to be an outdoorsman(woman?) and tracker in the books.  Her father had taught her there.  We have not had it reveled who taught her in the show as of yet.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Skipp
extra thought

[MasterAblar]

Its perfectly in keeping with the book for Nyneave to be able to avoid detection from at least hearing distance from Lan. Sneaking up to put a sword under his throat? That strains credulity in my opinion. Its a small nitpick though and you could argue that Lan was 100% focused on Moiraine (still don't think it would happen to book Lan though).

[Starganderfish]

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

@MasterAblar That's a good point, or they could have nabbed her while she was sleeping, or I forgot about forkroot as an option.  The fact that it happened offscreen made me jump to conclusions that they have some secret weapon. I'm hoping we end up with some reasonable explanation on the show for how it's done, but it's just a curiosity/nitpick thing, not a major issue for me.

They’ve watered down the One Power a LOT so far. Moraine was kind of ineffective in Episode 1 until she literally pulled the inn down to throw at the Trollocs. It was a cool trick but the lightning and fire should have been enough to wipe out the Trollocs and she was barely picking them off one at a time. That wasn’t a huge band of Trollocs and they basically had their way with the village for a long time. Given what we know of the Power and see in the later books, she was pretty underwhelming. 
I can see the Whitecloaks ambushing and swarming the Aes Sedai, maybe knocking her out with slings or subduing her with bolo’s or something. Or pincushioning her Warder and rushing the sister while she’s in shock. I just assumed the pain and shock of amputation combined with burning alive was enough to stop her channeling, but they seemed to make a big deal out of both her hands being cut off and Moraine flailing about like an inflatable balloon figure so I suspect “hands and gestures” are now integral to channeling.

I do like the Whitecloaks but in hindsight the feasting while your victim burns alive and the blood soaked cup kind of crossed the line into psychotic - everyone hates and fears the Whitecloaks but they at least maintain a veneer of “walking in the light” - Valda went straight to serial killer vibes. 

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Starganderfish said:

They’ve watered down the One Power a LOT so far. Moraine was kind of ineffective in Episode 1 until she literally pulled the inn down to throw at the Trollocs. It was a cool trick but the lightning and fire should have been enough to wipe out the Trollocs and she was barely picking them off one at a time. That wasn’t a huge band of Trollocs and they basically had their way with the village for a long time. Given what we know of the Power and see in the later books, she was pretty underwhelming. 
I can see the Whitecloaks ambushing and swarming the Aes Sedai, maybe knocking her out with slings or subduing her with bolo’s or something. Or pincushioning her Warder and rushing the sister while she’s in shock. I just assumed the pain and shock of amputation combined with burning alive was enough to stop her channeling, but they seemed to make a big deal out of both her hands being cut off and Moraine flailing about like an inflatable balloon figure so I suspect “hands and gestures” are now integral to channeling.

I do like the Whitecloaks but in hindsight the feasting while your victim burns alive and the blood soaked cup kind of crossed the line into psychotic - everyone hates and fears the Whitecloaks but they at least maintain a veneer of “walking in the light” - Valda went straight to serial killer vibes. 

 

To be fair its mainly just Valda who seemed that way. Borhald wasn't like that at all. 

[ArrylT]

22 hours ago, themann1086 said:

I actually liked the pacing of episode 2 better than episode 1. Seem to be in the minority in that which is fine! Little things I missed from my first viewing:

• The shadow that moves to lure Mat to the dagger. Hi Mordeth!
• Mashadar. Couldn't see it really in the theater (we were the first row, terrible angle) but it definitely looked a lot better on the TV screen

 

I liked the pacing of Episode 2 better.

 

Nor was I.  I know some where saying "30 seconds of Shadar Logoth" but it was plenty more than that haha.   

 

In the end at the end of the episode all the charactors were separated as they should be in the groupings as they were in the book and the key points were touched upon.   

 

I think my only quibble with the episode was when the wolves interacted with Perrin - but I'll have to re-read the 1st book and see when the first instance of wolves interacting (in any capacity) with Perrin occurs.  I do recall that wolves & Trollocs hate each other - so either the # of Trollocs was too many for the Wolves? Or the Trollocs got pushed by the Fade despite the fact that wolves had been in the area recently.

 

 

 

 

[MasterAblar]

What bothered me about Shadar Logoth somewhat is that what forced the group into fleeing was the trollocs being pressured in by the fades, who were themselves pressured in by Baalzamon I believe. I feel like including that part with Moiraine wondering what could be so terrifying to fades that they would enter Shadar Logoth would have been really nice. And as they're being chased by the trollocs once more, that's when they should introduce the hell that is mashadar.

Edited November 20, 2021 by MasterAblar