Balance of Power in the Wheel of Time

[Kaznen]

Bear with me because this takes some explaining.

 

In tEotW we learn that the True Source aka One Power is the river that powers the Wheel of Time which in turns weaves the theads of people into the Age Lace.

 

In DR Mo tells Perrin that the Creator is Good, the Dark is Evil, but the Wheel is Neutral.

 

So, Mordin uses the "True Power" which can only be used by permision of the DO and not given lightly. Mordin can use Saidin also he just chooses not to.

 

So that must mean there is a Creator Version of the TP, we'll call it Divine Power(DP) for now.

 

I guess it is the opposite of the TP which causes pain and suffering even when used for "good" like when Ishy healed LTT's madness.

 

Rand is going to have to be able to use DP soon because I don't think Saidin will do anything. If the OP is all that's needed then why do they need Rand to fight the DO when channler could do it? So why hasn't he?

 

Your thought on this?

[Shai-tan]

Yeah there has to be a DP, and I think that is what Ilyena was looking for but incidentally sensed the TP and boom there goes a hole in the prison. Hmm maybe the TP is actually a neutral source but when reached through the DO there is like a buffer of insanity.

[Jellybelly]

Nope. The TP is the Dark One's own power, accessible only though him. Confirmed over and over again.

 

And Ilyena had nothing to do with the drilling of the Bore.

[Luckers]

You mean Lanfear right? She was just looking for a power source accessable to both men and women, there was no desire to find some devine power or anything. She found exactly what she was looking for, an alternative power source.

 

Additionally, I do not see Rand accessing some DP either. Aside from the mere logistical problems of an author throwing that into the works now in the last book of a 12 book series, after he spent so much time cleansing saidin and making sure rand would be able to use it, theres the fact that he wouldn't even know of its existence, or know how to seek it out.

 

As for your question, it makes me think two things. One, i was annoyed when other men started channeling because it made Rand less special. But i think that is the point. Rand is not a superhero. He is just the same as thousands of other people, which is like what happens here in our world. It is not magical ability or anythinglike that the makes a hero, it is stepping up when no one else does, its being able to gather everyone together, and its having the intelligence to get the job done. Thats the answer to your question. It isn't the ability to channel that makes Rand the Dragon, so no, he doesn't need to be specially seperated again from other channelers to continue.

[A Nightmares Nightmare]

That would make sense for the need to use the DP on the Dark One. Seeing as how the Dark One is seperate from the wheel, and the OP is part of the wheel, how would it be used against the dark One?

[Smoosh]

I never thought of that, but it does make sense. There is all this jazz in the book about stuff being equal, so why not give the Creator his own power? Saidar and Saidin. The True Power (which may not be its true name, just something the Forsaken call it) and....what?

 

A very weak plot hole Jordan could use to get it in is that the Creator has had little or no contact with Rand. There was maybe one instance, in one of the first few books, but other than that, the DO has a major upper hand in contacting his avatars on Randland. (....or whatever) The Creator (Being all holy or whatever) has done nothing. At all. The DO is touching the pattern like a pervert on a 12 yr old girl, and all the Light has is every now and then, Rand, Matt and Perrin screwing with his plans slightly. It would make sense, but we havn't seen enough of the True Power to really compare. Can it be altered like the One Power? (Like, Saidin can cut Saidar's weaves) Can it be altered by the One Power? Is the only thing that makes it special is that its from the DO?

Could the True Power even be the DO's downfall? If it has no parallel, no Creator-born Divine Power, then what the hell is it? His life force. What else could it be? The DO is in prison. He wouldn't have the freedom to give them more power, if he had that freedom to begin with. The One Power is beyond the Creator and the DO. If it is the DO's life force (Or whatever), that means that whenever Moridin/Ishmael/Ba'alzamon/∞ whatever his name is, uses it, he is pulling some of the DO's life away. What if this weakens him enough to seal away the Bore without his counterstike. He might not notice until its too late. The tallest man in the world died from an infection on his ankle that he didnt notice.

[Arawn Telamon]

 

The Dark One has the True Power BECAUSE he alters and disrupts the pattern and the wheel. As we all know this is wrong. If the creator had made Devine Power he would also be interfearing with the pattern which he created. And in Tarwin Gap, EotW the creator says,

"It was not Rand's thought, making his skull viabrate. 'I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.'"

[Luckers]

Who said the Creator was holy? additionally the One Power is not a part of the wheel, it turns the wheel.

[Smoosh]

 

..."It was not Rand's thought' date=' making his skull viabrate. 'I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.'"[/quote']

 

Hmm...I never thought of that. Its can do. Which means that somewhere in the cosmic rulebook, it says that the Creator cannot defeat the DO. I wonder....Does it have to do with the human soul? What else does Rand have that the Creator doesn't?

 

 

And I call the Creator holy becuase he is an analogy of God, and even if he isn't called holy in the book, he would be holy for the same reason the Judo-Christian God is holy.

[Luckers]

Well i don't nessasarily think the christian god is holy, but we wont get into that.

 

When did you get the idea that the Creator was an analogy of the christian god? The wheel is a polytheistic realm with two creatures, the christian god is monotheistic. The Creator doesn't involve himself in the world, the christian God supposedly does. The characters of the two entities is supremely different. And finally, if the Dark One is any judge, then the Creator is not in any way shape or form a supreme being, as the christian god is supposed to be, therefore the assignation of divinity or any inherent holiness is flawd.

[Shai-tan]

Depends how you define holy really.

 

But the real question is "What is the TP exactly?"

[crash]

The True Power

The Great Lord of the Dark gives some of his minions the privilege to channel the True Power, which is drawn directly from him. Only thirty Dreadlords have been given the ability to channel it since the Age of Legends. The True Power cannot be seen nor detected except by those who wield it, which makes it almost impossible for a channeler of the One Power to fight a channeler of the True Power. Only the gholam can detect usage of the True Power. He feels an itch somewhat different from the One Power.

 

It is known that as a channeler of the One Power, you have your limitations. If you draw too much you’ll burn yourself out. The One Power gives such wonderful feelings that you might want to draw more, but channelers are taught not to, and their will is mostly strong enough. It is different with the True Power; it’s even more seductive than the One Power, and your will to use more will overpower your will to be careful. When you can’t hold against it any longer, you’ll draw too much and it will kill you.

 

Those using the True Power will develop saa, black spots that travel across your eyes. The more you use the True Power, the more saa you’ll get and you’ll see it across your vision. Moghedien believes that once saa have appeared in your eyes, the will to resist drawing too much won’t exist.

 

Being filled with the True Power was almost like kneeling beneath Shayol Ghul, basking the Great Lord’s glory. The glory was worth the pain. - Moridin

 

References: A Crown of Swords, Chapter 20; A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25; The Path of Daggers, Chapter 2; Winter's Heart, Chapter 13.

[Shai-tan]

Still not enough to give us answers. Where does it come from? Is it the Darkone's life force like was someone's point? Or is it a completely different power source?

 

If its a dark power source then that gives reason for a light one not that any charcters will be using it I doubt unless the creator gets involved which is also a doubt.

[crash]

It is also observed in this moment that Moridin already has saa in his eyes. Saa are a symptom of extensive use of the True Power. He likens it to kneeling beneath Shayol Ghul, basking in the [Dark One’s] glory

[Ilyena]

I think the only way we can really know is to ask RJ... maybe Jason will ask him for us the next time they talk.

[Luckers]

The True Power has its own limitations, and from what Moridin thinks, you weave it in a similar manner to the OP.

[Kaznen]

I always thougth the TP was a watered down for humans version the the OP. And whenever Mordin/Ishy use it I always think of massive darkness.

 

The problem with Rand fighting the DO with the OP is that from SH we see that the DO can prevent people from channleing. That is quite a problem to over come during the TG.

 

However a DP coming from the Creator the same way the bad guys use the TP would be outside the DO power to control. And I don't see if Rand were to use the DP that the Creator would be taking direct action. The Creator isn't channling the DP he is just letting Rand use it. I think the reason Rand isn't using it now is because, despite what he knows and has to do, he isn't a "believer."

[Jedimuppet]

I think the only way we can really know is to ask RJ... maybe Jason will ask him for us the next time they talk.

 

I did always think it was odd that the bad guy has a power called the "True" power...seems to me like calling the Dark One Great Lord, or calling the Forsaken, Chosen...

 

I believe that the Creator must be as powerful as the DO, and he must have access to something. It might even be the same power, just uncorrupted because he's for life rather than death. I think, though, that he knows/believes the pattern will unwravel if he interferes with the DO, and that's why we don't see that power.

J

[alCal]

The Creator must be at least as powerful as the DO since he put him in his cage from the beginning.

And on the subject of Shaidar Haran, I'v been thinking about that before. Could it be possible that SH can only prevent those who have given their souls to the DO from channeling? After all, they are linked to the DO and SH seems to be his avatar or somethink like that.

[Luckers]

Unless the Creator tricked the Dark One.

[Arawn Telamon]

Tricked the Dark One how???

[Luckers]

When he locked him outside the wheel. I don't think that the Dark One was caged, but rather that the Creator caged himself inside the wheel to protect himself from the dark one. Otherwise why doesn't he take a more active role.

[Slayer]

What if the Creator is the Dark One. He was awefully lonely, so he decided to create a "puzzle" to work himself out of. And people found a basic need for something good to believe in, so they formed a mental "good guy" called the Creator.

[alCal]

"he was awefully lonely"...

LOL :lol:

[Paladin]

I have always seen this whole argument diffrently. The True Power is there to balance the One Power.

One comes from the Creator the other from The DO.

The DO is trying to break the wheel and remake it in his own image. Currently the Wheel is turned by the One Power and the Creator is in controll. If the Dark one wants to remake the wheel he would need to use his own opposite but equal power to turn the wheel.Namely the True Power. The wheel currently is balanced but the world leans to ward the side of good. Just take a look at the blight to see what the world would look like if the DO was in charge of the Wheel.