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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

A possible explanation of things you never thought needed explaining: Time edition, and maybe how to control time with a ter'angreal


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Okay. I have no idea how to order this, so I'm just going to go with a random order. @SinisterDeath and @Elgee asked me to tag them in this, so here they are. *bows to each and inhales deeply* Ready?

 

This theory is mostly about how time works within WoT. In a series called the Wheel of Time, there is a decent amount of well, time-related stuff. 

 

I am going to provide a quick list of all the time-related stuff in WoT, so that you understand what I am talking about.

 

The Wheel: The Wheel turns time for Aesrhoid (fan-name for the WoT world) and all the Worlds that Might Be. It is turned by saidin and saidar.

 

Tel'aran'rhoid: Time flows differently in T'a'r, sometimes slower, sometimes faster.

 

The Worlds that Might Be (Portal Stones worlds): Time flows differently here too, sometimes slower, sometimes faster, but seemingly constant to each world.

 

The One Power: People who channel live longer. According to the Wheel of Time Companion, the reason for the youthful look, is because of the healthful effects of the OP.

 

The Oath Rod: The Oath Rod caps Aes Sedai lifespans at approximately three hundred, regardless of strength. For an unknown reason, the older one is when bound by the Rod, the more the Rod restricts.

 

The True Power: See theory

 

Seal on the Dark One's prison: The Forsaken were suspended in time, with only the ones close to the surface of the seal, Aginor and Balthamel, aging.

 

Stasis boxes: Time is stopped within these boxes, until they are opened.

 

Keepings: Keepings preserve things they are placed upon, though whether time is stopped or slowed within them, is unknown. Unlike Stasis boxes, if a living thing is placed under a Keeping, they will die instantly, but remain perfectly preserved.

 

Vacuoles: Vacuoles are bubbles on the Pattern, outside it, in which time flows differently.

 

Nym: Nym appear to live for a long time, going off of the Green Man, who lived in the Blight for over three thousand years.

 

Now that we've gone over the terms, let's get into the theory

     As the being that created the Wheel of Time, it makes sense that the Creator controls time. And if they control time, it makes sense that they would manipulate it, likely slowing it down to create worlds in less time, or speeding it up to watch human events. It stands to reason that anything outside of the Pattern, or other worlds would be susceptible to these time changes. This would include the DO, the OP, the TP, T'a'r, and other things. This idea is supported by T'a'r because it is outside the Pattern, and time flows differently there, as well as other things I will get into shortly.

 

     While we are talking about things being susceptible to time changes, we have to talk about the One Power. The OP is outside of the Pattern, and by my theory, that means that time should effect it. And I think it does. We are never given an in-world reason as to why people who channel age slower, some even living up to 800. However, if the Creator slows time, which it makes sense they would to create more worlds, then the OP would be effected. And if it is, then channelers are basically putting themselves in a living stasis box. The time effect would transfer to their bodies, therefore making them live longer. This fits in the whole strength to life idea, that we know to be true, as if you channel more time-slowed Power into your body, you will age even slower than someone who can only channel half or a quarter of what you can. The reason Healed people don't live for a very long time is likely because they are only getting a temporary flow of the OP through them, so only a second or so of slowed time. It should be noted that women at the same strength level as men tend to live approximately ten percent longer, but this difference probably due to the harsh nature of saidin, compared to the softer nature of saidar. 

 

     Now let's talk about the Nym. Nym are constructs of the OP, and appear to be able to channel it as well. The Green Man lived for over three thousand years, while most of the other Nym died. He probably had to channel constantly in order to keep the Blight from closing in on the Eye, so this is a likely reason for why he lived so long.

 

     T'a'r time would move differently because it is outside the Pattern, and therefore changed by the Creator.

 

     Portal Stones are a little weird, because they are within the Pattern, but also have different times. The reason I think this happens is because of the different speeds the Wheel was going at when it created them. The Wheel is turned by saidin and saidar, which are effected by the Creator changing time. If the OP is changed, then the speed at which the Wheel turns would be as well, so if the Wheel was turning very slowly when it created one of the WtMB then that world's time would remain slow. Same if the Wheel was turning fast.

 

    The DO is probably also susceptible to the time changes of the Creator. The DO is sealed outside of the Pattern, and not within any world, so all of the evidence previously provided supports this. There is more support though. The True Power comes from the DO and seems to have the same time effects of the OP. This is seen in Ishamael. After the War of Power, Ishamael channeled exclusively the TP. We don't know exactly when he started doing this, it could have been anywhere from the first time he was freed to the last. However, Moghedien said that as Moridin, he would have had to channel the TP for a while in order to achieve only a little saa, and he was only Moridin for a year or a little more, which indicates that in order to get the flame eyes effect, Ishamel would have had to either channel the TP almost constantly on his third spin out, or channel it a little over a long time. I would favor Ishamael using only the TP from about the time of the Trolloc Wars onward. This would allow him time to achieve the flame eyes effect, while not constantly channeling the TP. 

     If the TP didn't have the same time effects as the OP, then Ishamael should have either died, or looked much older than he did in the Eye of the World. The reason his body decomposed so quickly when he died in the Dragon Reborn is because of how much TP he had channeled/was channeling when he died. That was an enormous amount of time effect to be holding.

 

     As a side note on the taint, likely the reason for the wasting sickness is because the channeler is having to deal with two time-effects at once, (the DO and saidin).

 

     Now we have to talk about stasis boxes. Stasis boxes suspend time for whatever is in them. They are likely related to Keepings, but whether Keepings stop time or slow it is unknown. It is very possible that stasis boxes use standing flows to prevent time from moving, though how they stop time is a matter of some question. It is almost certainly similar to the DO's prison, however, things don't age within stasis boxes, and Aginor and Balthamel did age, though they were kept alive. It seems that the Forsaken were put in a different kind of stasis box, one where they were put to sleep until freed. I do not know why Ishamael was freed from the prison, other than that the Pattern needed him. 

     It is possible that stasis boxes were created by sucking the time properties out of the TS, sort of like Rand did with the taint, or done by taking the time properties out of vacuoles. The vacuoles idea is more plausible, because Moghedien said that great experiments had been done in vacuoles, which could be referencing stasis boxes. Doing this could be difficult, so it seems a little odd that people would choose to save artwork, rather than more important things, when they could have just put them in a Keeping. It is possible that upon contact with a human, or the death of the channeler, Keepings unravel, which would make them less useful. There is a good chance the DO's prison operates off of similar rules, but instead of the seal crumbling when the Hundred Companions died, it is when the cuendillar seals break.

 

Now for the Oath Rod. This is the trickiest one of all to work out, because we know so little about it. It is unknown if the OR halves non-channeler lifespans like it does AS ones. It is possible that the Oath Rod uses Compulsion to make you adhere to the Oaths, and that whether the Oaths hold or not is dependent on the Spirit channeled into it. Aes Sedai channel the Spirit themselves, so when Siuan and Leane were stilled, the Spirit connection broke, and they were freed of the Oaths, as well as the ageless look. In the AoL, if a n-c was bound with the OR, then an AS would channel the Spirit for them. Since the n-c would be likely to die first, this attribute of the Oath Rod would not have been noticed. Even if the AS died first, the n-c basically escaped a death sentence, so it's not like they would go complaining about it. There is also a decent chance that the OR works like a Bloodknife, drawing off of your life force in order to make you adhere to the Oaths. This would account for the lifespan halving, as well as it being considered a death sentence. This could be the cause of the agelessness, as the OP would try to make you look younger, and the OR would make you look older. This theory is the least evidence supported one, because we just don't know enough about the Oath 

Rod to make incredibly accurate theories. Edit: (SinisterDeath pointed out that Brandon has said that he is 85% sure that the Oath Rod doesn't work like a Bloodknife, so the Spirit theory is more likely. Thanks, SD.)

 

I mentioned in the title that there might be a way to control time with a ter'angreal. That seems to be possible. If you reverse the stasis box weave and tweak it a bit, you should be able to make time move much faster on a certain thing. Same for a tweaked Keeping that would make time move much slower. Then from there, you should be able to make a middle ground weave to make time go at a medium speed. If you make these standing flows in their own ter'angreal, then you should have ter'angreal that can change the speed or time, but not reverse it.

 

Regretting reading all of this? Probably. Hopefully this makes sense, and I didn't just fry your brain trying to understand my logic. If you disagree, or think something should be different, let me know! I am always happy to hear other people's thoughts on my theories, and it really helps me to improve them. Thanks!

Edited by Asha'man Shar'aman
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46 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Now for the Oath Rod. This is the trickiest one of all to work out, because we know so little about it. It is unknown if the OR halves non-channeler lifespans like it does AS ones

We know that the WT Oath Rod, only works on women that can channel.

It's possible that one of the other Oath Rods that exist could work on non-channelers and/or male channelers; But we have to remember that during the AoL, the supposed lack of "criminal behavior" that existed in their "Utopia", a Channeler living upwards of 800+ years was far more likely to cause trouble, then a regular human.

When it comes to ter'angrael creation, we don't really know what the rules were, or whether the effects and costs were even known prior to making them.

A tool to punish "criminal" channelers, giving them an "ageless look", that also capped their life span, is a pretty hefty penalty that was probably only given for serious crimes.
There's an implication here, that when the WT first started using the Oath Rods, they did so to "punish" themselves for causing the breaking?

When the Oath Rods were created, perhaps they were "programmed" to work that way.
It might "speed" up their time (expiring faster).
Or Perhaps the "cost" of fueling the oaths is it "consumes" your life force.

Interesting side note: What other entity(ies) in WoT have mentioned being bound by an agreement?
Perhaps these oath rods were "wishes"?

 


 

 

1 hour ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Now let's talk about the Nym. Nym are constructs of the OP, and appear to be able to channel it as well. The Green Man lived for over three thousand years, while most of the other Nym died. He probably had to channel constantly in order to keep the Blight from closing in on the Eye, so this is a likely reason for why he lived so long.

Interesting, according to the WoT companion they did use the One Power. (That's news to me!)

My thought was that they used the "Song", and threaded the weaves of "nature". That their very presence causes nature around them to grow, also allowed their body to constantly rejuvenate. A Nym being neither male nor female, that means that if they do in fact channel the OP, they channel the literal One Power that drives creation.

 

53 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

While we are talking about things being susceptible to time changes, we have to talk about the One Power. The OP is outside of the Pattern, and by my theory, that means that time should effect it.


Going by the text, The One Power comes from the True Source, which drives creation (Matter, Energy, etc)
The one power "turns" the wheel, and the wheel weaves the great pattern.

I don't know that I'd really say it's "outside" the pattern, as it's all part of the great "cosmic" engine that drives "everything", but that's neither here nor there.
 

1 hour ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

T'a'r time would move differently because it is outside the Pattern, and therefore changed by the Creator.

 

     Portal Stones are a little weird, because they are within the Pattern, but also have different times. The reason I think this happens is because of the different speeds the Wheel was going at when it created them. The Wheel is turned by saidin and saidar, which are effected by the Creator changing time. If the OP is changed, then the speed at which the Wheel turns would be as well, so if the Wheel was turning very slowly when it created one of the WtMB then that world's time would remain slow. Same if the Wheel was turning fast.

 

Something that's been part of fantasy for ages, but is relatively new concept to me is the "Fae" and the "Fae Realms".
Portal Worlds, Tar, and where ever the Finn live, are allegories to the Fae Realms. (Finn = Fae)

My personal theory is that the "Material World", is one of many "layers" of reality, with TAR acting as a type of bridge between those realities closest to your own. I also believe several cultures in WoT refer to dying as "waking from the dream".

Further, Given the nature of the "Unreliable Narrator" throughout the Wheel of Time Series, I think that WoT's "Hard Magic System" is actually a "lie", and it's actually far "softer" then what we were led to believe.

E.g. the way that we saw "magic" work in the first novels were written that way on purpose. Not because RJ hadn't fully developed his magic system yet, but to sow seeds of what society knows as truth may not be the truth. That how "weaving" works is less of a "science", and it only becomes that way after people have defined it as such. 

I often wonder if channeling the "one power" is actually extension of TAR while awake, where simply willing things to exist, causes them to exist.  (It also ironic it's called the ONE POWER, Perhaps it's gender divide is more of a social construct then we know?)

Related to this, when the Dark One was tearing the fabric of reality apart, It may have actually been loosening the "veil" between "Reality" and TAR. Tar where being able to "create" anything through force of "will" is more powerful than "the one power". Bubbles of Evil, may literally have been TAR Nightmares spilling into reality.

Stasis boxes may also be derived from dream shards. 😉 

I explored some of these ideas here; 

 

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3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

We know that the WT Oath Rod, only works on women that can channel.

Where did you find that? I haven't found anything that says that. 

 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

There's an implication here, that when the WT first started using the Oath Rods, they did so to "punish" themselves for causing the breaking?

I believe they did that so people would trust them more. 

 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

When the Oath Rods were created, perhaps they were "programmed" to work that way.
It might "speed" up their time (expiring faster).
Or Perhaps the "cost" of fueling the oaths is it "consumes" your life force.

I think it is the cost, because the AoL people were big on not killing folks, so they probably didn't design it that way. 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Interesting, according to the WoT companion they did use the One Power. (That's news to me!)

This drove me insane for weeks. I still have no idea how it works, or what would happen if you tried it on a human.

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

My thought was that they used the "Song", and threaded the weaves of "nature". That their very presence causes nature around them to grow, also allowed their body to constantly rejuvenate. A Nym being neither male nor female, that means that if they do in fact channel the OP, they channel the literal One Power that drives creation.

This is a very good thought. Something that bothers me, however is that the books are very clear on it being the One Power, (saidin and saidar) and not the True Source which the One Power stems from. 

 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know that I'd really say it's "outside" the pattern, as it's all part of the great "cosmic" engine that drives "everything", but that's neither here nor there.

I think this is one you can't really prove either way, because there just isn't enough evidence to do so. 

 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

My personal theory is that the "Material World", is one of many "layers" of reality, with TAR acting as a type of bridge between those realities closest to your own. I also believe several cultures in WoT refer to dying as "waking from the dream".

I sort of agree with this. I think that T'a'r does connect all the worlds, but I don't think there are "planes" or "layers" of reality, like in the Elric saga.

 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Further, Given the nature of the "Unreliable Narrator" throughout the Wheel of Time Series, I think that WoT's "Hard Magic System" is actually a "lie", and it's actually far "softer" then what we were led to believe.

E.g. the way that we saw "magic" work in the first novels were written that way on purpose. Not because RJ hadn't fully developed his magic system yet, but to sow seeds of what society knows as truth may not be the truth. That how "weaving" works is less of a "science", and it only becomes that way after people have defined it as such. 

 

Again, I sort of agree with this. I think there is a lot more you can do with the OP than is shown, but I think that the rules are hard-set, and you can't change them. 

 

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I often wonder if channeling the "one power" is actually extension of TAR while awake, where simply willing things to exist, causes them to exist.  (It also ironic it's called the ONE POWER, Perhaps it's gender divide is more of a social construct then we know?)

Related to this, when the Dark One was tearing the fabric of reality apart, It may have actually been loosening the "veil" between "Reality" and TAR. Tar where being able to "create" anything through force of "will" is more powerful than "the one power". Bubbles of Evil, may literally have been TAR Nightmares spilling into reality.

Now, in my humble opinion, this makes no sense at all. You can't just will stuff to happen with the Power, you have to make it happen. (It is ironic that its called the One Power, and I think the social construct of gender does play a role in it, but again, I just don't think that you can break the rules of the One Power just because you believe you can.) 

 

I think bubbles of evil are more just an effect of the DO's evil than anything else. If they were nightmares from T'a'r, then it doesn't make sense how Perrin was immune to one in ToM, since surely he went into multiple nightmares of similar types while training in T'a'r.

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Stasis boxes may also be derived from dream shards. 😉 

Could you provide reasoning for that please? I don't understand how they could.

 

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16 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Now, in my humble opinion, this makes no sense at all. You can't just will stuff to happen with the Power,

Book 1.

Rand "wills" Bela to run faster. (Not only did he heal her "stamina", I actually think he fundamentally changed Bela at the genetic level)

 

At this point in the novels, he doesn't know what he's doing, can't see what he's doing let alone that he's doing anything at all.

 

Ta'varen aside, if weaving isn't ultimately willing things to work, is 100% hard magic system where the weaves must flow perfectly (like magic circles/arcane runes/words in other magic) then what Rand did was the equivalent of cross stitching Van Gogh's starry night, blind, with his hands tied behind his back, unable to feel his hands, and never having seen that painting.

 

Same goes for Nyneave when she was younger, and "healed" people without even knowing what she was doing. 

 

24 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Where did you find that? I haven't found anything that says that.

It's mentioned in the WoT wiki when you search oath rod/binding rod. I wish they referenced where they say it can only be used by Channelers.

 

35 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

I think bubbles of evil are more just an effect of the DO's evil than anything else. If they were nightmares from T'a'r, then it doesn't make sense how Perrin was immune to one in ToM, since surely he went into multiple nightmares of similar types while training in T'a'r

 

Perrin is "immune" to them in TAR, not "reality".

 

My thought is that true DO's " evil manifests "nightmares", and with the veil between Reality and TAR thinning, has allowed those nightmares to manifest directly into reality.

 

37 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

I sort of agree with this. I think that T'a'r does connect all the worlds, but I don't think there are "planes" or "layers" of reality, like in the Elric saga.

 

I'd say the portal worlds are the layers. The further you get away from your reality, the "weirder" the world is to your perception, both spatially and temporally.

 

40 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

This is a very good thought. Something that bothers me, however is that the books are very clear on it being the One Power, (saidin and saidar) and not the True Source which the One Power stems from.

I've always taken the True Source and the One Power as synonyms. We know the OP stems from the True Source, but does that means there's more "powers" that stem from the One Power? I dunno.

 

Either way, it seems to me that the Nym channeling the OP (doesn't say Saidin or Saidar), has to mean they used both halves/combined? They couldn't have used a new power that stems from the true source, else they would have already found it and there's never have been a breaking in the first place.

 

Perhaps that's related to the Green Man's injury? Half tainted, half not...

 

51 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

I think it is the cost, because the AoL people were big on not killing folks, so they probably didn't design it that way.

Screenshot_20210614-220715_Chrome.jpg

 

This debunks the life force fueling.

So I'll have to go with it reduces the life span as part of the punishment.

 

55 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Could you provide reasoning for that please? I don't understand how they could.

Dream shards you can create rules for what happens inside them.

 

You are also "in the flesh" while inside it.

 

If you dictate that time stops while Inside of one. It's within reason that time stops for them.

 

The tricky part of all of this is, if you enter TAR in the flesh and "change" something about yourself, does that take affect after you leave?

 

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On 6/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Book 1.

Rand "wills" Bela to run faster. (Not only did he heal her "stamina", I actually think he fundamentally changed Bela at the genetic level)

That was Rand channeling the weaves to make it happen. It's possible that he got the knowledge from Lews Therin, without realizing it, as LT was likely in his head to begin because LT appears in Rand's head speaking perfect Third Age Tongue. 

On 6/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Same goes for Nyneave when she was younger, and "healed" people without even knowing what she was doing. 

People can do things instinctively. Moiraine made her eavesdropping trick without any AS training, and it is highly likely the Pattern needed Nynaeve to channel like that, so it made her know the weaves.

On 6/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Perrin is "immune" to them in TAR, not "reality".

 

My thought is that true DO's " evil manifests "nightmares", and with the veil between Reality and TAR thinning, has allowed those nightmares to manifest directly into reality.

No. He was immune to the weapons-attacking-you one in his camp in the waking world, not TAR.

 

On 6/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I'd say the portal worlds are the layers. The further you get away from your reality, the "weirder" the world is to your perception, both spatially and temporally.

Well, we don't have a way to prove this, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

On 6/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I've always taken the True Source and the One Power as synonyms. We know the OP stems from the True Source, but does that means there's more "powers" that stem from the One Power? I dunno.

 

Either way, it seems to me that the Nym channeling the OP (doesn't say Saidin or Saidar), has to mean they used both halves/combined? They couldn't have used a new power that stems from the true source, else they would have already found it and there's never have been a breaking in the first place.

 

Perhaps that's related to the Green Man's injury? Half tainted, half not...

I honestly don't know. It is never explained, for being such a big deal. Maybe constructs of the OP don't have the saidin and saidar divide?

On 6/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Screenshot_20210614-220715_Chrome.jpg

 

This debunks the life force fueling.

So I'll have to go with it reduces the life span as part of the punishment.

This is probable. Thanks for the info. It is possible that my theory is still correct, but it's not very likely, so we should probably go with your version so as to be more accurate.

On 6/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Dream shards you can create rules for what happens inside them.

 

You are also "in the flesh" while inside it.

 

If you dictate that time stops while Inside of one. It's within reason that time stops for them.

 

The tricky part of all of this is, if you enter TAR in the flesh and "change" something about yourself, does that take affect after you leave?

Where does it say those things?

 

I have no idea. This is definitely something I've thought about a ton, but I still don't know. Can you give yourself the ability to channel in TAR and take it to the waking world? I would assume no, because someone surely would have tried that, and it would have been mentioned by LT or one of the Forsaken. So maybe stuff doesn't change about your mind, just your physical body?

 

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38 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

That was Rand channeling the weaves to make it happen. It's possible that he got the knowledge from Lews Therin, without realizing it, as LT was likely in his head to begin because LT appears in Rand's head speaking perfect Third Age Tongue. 

I know he was channeling the "weaves" to make it happen. The problem stems from his inability to see what he was doing. It just happened. We assume that weaves are an exact science, but I rarely see anyone question whether wanting/willing something to happen with the One Power, causes the weave to form, and then those that can see what they're doing can copy that weave.

Imagine that cross-stitching example. Rand just does all that blindfolded. But what would have happened if Logain had been around to see what Rand was doing? He'd "see" the weaves, and would be able to replicate it. 

 

42 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

People can do things instinctively. Moiraine made her eavesdropping trick without any AS training, and it is highly likely the Pattern needed Nynaeve to channel like that, so it made her know the weaves.

See above. 😉

 

43 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

No. He was immune to the weapons-attacking-you one in his camp in the waking world, not TAR.

I misread what you said then.

What book chapter? I don't recall him being "Immune" to a bubble of evil?

 

44 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Well, we don't have a way to prove this, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

 

RJ called portal stone worlds "mirrors". Different from "parallel". 
https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=portal+worlds
 

I recall that hellscape world they found Lanfear in while pursing Fain. Time and Distances were wonky. I looked at it as a "layer" as the idea was the "Further" that reality is from your own, the more "wrong" it is. 

Like how an Onion is crispy/white and full of juice on the inside, but flaky, dry and inedible on the outside. 

49 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

I honestly don't know. It is never explained, for being such a big deal. Maybe constructs of the OP don't have the saidin and saidar divide?

It's possible.
It's also possible they have access to both. (If you ever garden, you'd know some plants are both male and female!)

 

50 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

This is probable. Thanks for the info. It is possible that my theory is still correct, but it's not very likely, so we should probably go with your version so as to be more accurate.

*Shrugs*
It really is hard to say. I often go with Occam's Razor, but sometimes the more wacky theory can be fun to play with. 🙂

 

51 minutes ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Where does it say those things?

 

I have no idea. This is definitely something I've thought about a ton, but I still don't know. Can you give yourself the ability to channel in TAR and take it to the waking world? I would assume no, because someone surely would have tried that, and it would have been mentioned by LT or one of the Forsaken. So maybe stuff doesn't change about your mind, just your physical body?

So, Book 3 Rand's Battle. When Rand teleporting all over the place, they were fighting in either T'A'R, or Dream Shards (or both!). 
In T'A'R, if you believe the air is Lava, it's Lava.

I'll have to check the companion but this is what the wiki says on them.
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dreamshard


Also the last 3 paragraphs to this one.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Moridin

 

I have no evidence to suggest you can change a person brought into a dreamshard. But the fact that the dreamshard creator has absolute control over what happens in their dreamshard, suggests the possibility that you could twist someone brought into one physically. It's an interesting idea at the very least. ^_^

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On 6/16/2021 at 2:59 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I know he was channeling the "weaves" to make it happen. The problem stems from his inability to see what he was doing. It just happened. We assume that weaves are an exact science, but I rarely see anyone question whether wanting/willing something to happen with the One Power, causes the weave to form, and then those that can see what they're doing can copy that weave.

Imagine that cross-stitching example. Rand just does all that blindfolded. But what would have happened if Logain had been around to see what Rand was doing? He'd "see" the weaves, and would be able to replicate it. 

I still think it's more of an instinctual thing. Kind of like how you already know how to breathe when you are born, or how to eat. You just get better at it the more you practice. And even if it isn't, who's to say the Pattern didn't make Rand do it?

On 6/16/2021 at 2:59 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I misread what you said then.

What book chapter? I don't recall him being "Immune" to a bubble of evil?

Chapter 29: A Terrible Feeling. Weapons start attacking people, and you either have to break them, or shower them in dirt to stop them. Later on, Perrin doesn't want to think about why his hammer didn't attack him. This is before the forging of Mah'allienir. Nobody else was immune to it, and Perrin had had his axe attack him before, in the Stone of Tear in the Shadow Rising.

 

On 6/16/2021 at 2:59 PM, SinisterDeath said:

RJ called portal stone worlds "mirrors". Different from "parallel". 
https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=portal+worlds
 

I recall that hellscape world they found Lanfear in while pursing Fain. Time and Distances were wonky. I looked at it as a "layer" as the idea was the "Further" that reality is from your own, the more "wrong" it is. 

Like how an Onion is crispy/white and full of juice on the inside, but flaky, dry and inedible on the outside. 

I'll be honest. I am even more confused after reading that link. Your idea kind of makes sense, but Tel'aran'rhoid isn't super weird, and it connects all worlds, so I don't know how that would work. Thoughts?

On 6/16/2021 at 2:59 PM, SinisterDeath said:

It's possible.
It's also possible they have access to both. (If you ever garden, you'd know some plants are both male and female!)

Both are totally possible. Someshta was described as the "Green Man" but this could very easily be a mistake made by the people of Aman'dhol (Randland).

 

On 6/16/2021 at 2:59 PM, SinisterDeath said:

*Shrugs*
It really is hard to say. I often go with Occam's Razor, but sometimes the more wacky theory can be fun to play with. 🙂

Wacky theories are definitely fun to play with. Most often they tend to be wrong, but its fun to think they might be correct for a minute. 

On 6/16/2021 at 2:59 PM, SinisterDeath said:

So, Book 3 Rand's Battle. When Rand teleporting all over the place, they were fighting in either T'A'R, or Dream Shards (or both!). 
In T'A'R, if you believe the air is Lava, it's Lava.

I'll have to check the companion but this is what the wiki says on them.
https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dreamshard


Also the last 3 paragraphs to this one.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Moridin

 

I have no evidence to suggest you can change a person brought into a dreamshard. But the fact that the dreamshard creator has absolute control over what happens in their dreamshard, suggests the possibility that you could twist someone brought into one physically. It's an interesting idea at the very least. ^_^

I am pretty sure it was TAR, because dream shards probably require a large amount of concentration to hold, and Rand didn't immediately fade out of it when Ishamael died. 

 

It does seem possible. I suppose evidence for it could come from most of the Shadowspawn, but Aginor wasn't a Dreamer, and we don't know if it is possible for a non-Dreamer to create a dreamshard. Very interesting idea to think about.

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2 hours ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Chapter 29: A Terrible Feeling. Weapons start attacking people, and you either have to break them, or shower them in dirt to stop them. Later on, Perrin doesn't want to think about why his hammer didn't attack him. This is before the forging of Mah'allienir. Nobody else was immune to it, and Perrin had had his axe attack him before, in the Stone of Tear in the Shadow Rising.

Huh, I wonder how many others even caught that small detail.
I dunno if that makes him immune to Bubbles of Evil. Perhaps his Ta'vareness protected him in this one instance? 

 

I can't recall, was this before or after one of his bouts with Slayer running in and out of T'A'R?

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2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Huh, I wonder how many others even caught that small detail.
I dunno if that makes him immune to Bubbles of Evil. Perhaps his Ta'vareness protected him in this one instance? 

 

I can't recall, was this before or after one of his bouts with Slayer running in and out of T'A'R?

Probably not many. Of course, there are so many things I must have missed, so it’s not like I’m better in any way or anything like that. 
 

Why didn’t it protect him when the same bubble of evil attacked him the first time? Or why didn’t it protect Rand? 
 

He had already fought Slayer in TAR, but not in the flesh yet like I heard he does in aMoL

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/18/2021 at 7:38 PM, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Why didn’t it protect him when the same bubble of evil attacked him the first time? Or why didn’t it protect Rand? 

I really need to re-read these specific chapters.
One thought I have is maybe the connection the weapon has to the user is important? E.g. are they actively holding it? Is it "there" weapon, or a newly obtained one that they don't really feel ownership of?

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2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I really need to re-read these specific chapters.
One thought I have is maybe the connection the weapon has to the user is important? E.g. are they actively holding it? Is it "there" weapon, or a newly obtained one that they don't really feel ownership of?

Well, in the SR, Perrin had the axe, which attacked him, and in ToM, he had his base hammer, not Mah’allinir. 
 

Everyone else’s weapons attacked them, regardless of how long they had had them, so I don’t think ownership is the case, but an interesting thought!

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His hammer didn't attack him because it wasn't a weapon.  It was a blacksmith's tool that he taken to using as a weapon, but it was still ultimately a thing of creation, not destruction.  Every other weapon made of metal attacked people, but things that were not weapons didn't, even if they would have been pretty effective at killing people.  No shears started stabbing seamstresses, or leather worker's punches started making holes in people's hides.  Lengths of chain didn't wrap around people's necks and break them or drag them up into the air to hang.  Belt and harness buckles and unshod horseshoes didn't start pelting people. Perrin's not immune to bubbles of evil, he just happened to not be in a great deal of danger when that particular bubble hit.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/29/2021 at 9:30 AM, Thrasymachus said:

His hammer didn't attack him because it wasn't a weapon.  It was a blacksmith's tool that he taken to using as a weapon, but it was still ultimately a thing of creation, not destruction.  Every other weapon made of metal attacked people, but things that were not weapons didn't, even if they would have been pretty effective at killing people.  No shears started stabbing seamstresses, or leather worker's punches started making holes in people's hides.  Lengths of chain didn't wrap around people's necks and break them or drag them up into the air to hang.  Belt and harness buckles and unshod horseshoes didn't start pelting people. Perrin's not immune to bubbles of evil, he just happened to not be in a great deal of danger when that particular bubble hit.

 

 

This is a very interesting thought. You say that a hammer is not a weapon. Is it the fact the Perrin's hammer was a blacksmith's hammer, and not a war hammer? Would Mah'allenir react the same way, even though it was created for war?

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Mah'alleinir was also a stylized blacksmith's hammer, modified, of course, to be a more effective warhammer, as well "the hammer of a king," whatever that means.  I suspect that it would likewise have been immune to that bubble of evil.  The choice of the hammer over the axe is significant for Perrin, because the hammer represents the possibility to create/forge/build, as well as destroy, where the axe can only destroy.  I'd have to imagine that distinction would carry over to Perrin's "leveled-up" hammer as much as his original one.  But it would depend on how Perrin views it, is Mah'alleinir just his weapon, or is it also his tool?

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