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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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On 8/19/2019 at 10:36 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Let's see a source on that?

All I've been able to dig up about this list, is that @Terez supposedly found this list buried among the notes RJ left to the Charleston University.
The Wordpress/Instagram post, which is a screenshot of a list posted to some forum, (that I can no longer find) has a source that links to Google+.

But as you may know (probably not) Google+  shutdown. So AFAIK there is no way to validate the source of that list, because the source-link is now dead. There is no way to validate that list, short of Terez where it came from.


Also something to note: Much of the stuff Terez found buried in the notes, wasn't even cannon. From what I've gathered, much of the notes were "what ifs", random plots/stories & ideas that were written but never committed to Cannon. I think I read one where Nyneave is Raped. One where Nyneave kills Moiraine.


Per the list above: None of the actors, look at all, how the characters are described.

Audrey Hepburn was 5'-7"
Egwene is 5'-3". If we go by the Perrin/Moiraine Heightists, Audrey was to Tall, even with movie magic and forced perspective.
Audrey was relatively pale.  Not even close to the spanish skin tone people are clamoring for. (She's British afterall!)

Jacqueline Bisset
5'-7" Tall
Nyneave is 5'-4".
Too tall yet again.
Bisset also has gray eyes. (or is it green, or blue? Either way, far too light)


Val Kilmer is 6'-0". Blue eyes, Blonde Hair.
Perrin is at least 6'-1", Dark Curly Hair, Dark Eyes.
Kilmer is clearly To short, his hair & eyes are to light, and his hair isn't curly enough to play Perrin.

Assuming RJ actually made the list, the most likely reason he wrote it, is that these are actors RJ knew, and liked. Many of them are people he grew up watching. He probably would have loved to see them play his characters, even if they looked nothing like them...

Here's the thing. Good actors can play characters they don't look anything like.
Some Actors are just meant to be certain characters, and they become the character, even if they don't look anything like what you expected that character to look like.

 

Nick Fury never used to look like Samuel L Jackson.
Now we can't picture Nick Fury as anyone BUT Samuel L Jackson.

From Maria's statement : " RJ Did have a list of actors he said the characters resembled"

 

 

I will take Sandrson's tact and say the changes due to Rafe's own vision. And as Sandrson also said its okay to disagee with another person's vision when looking at changes in an adaptation. I just simply think that due to the isolation of the Two Rivers and therefore the necessary inbreeding that occured over 2 thousand years having a racially diverse cast of Emmond's Fielder's is a step too far.

 

Also the actor chosen to portray Perrin may be large but he has nowhere near the physique of Perrin as written or indeed the physique of any blacksmith's Apprentice.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CUBAREY said:

From Maria's statement : " RJ Did have a list of actors he said the characters resembled"

 

 

I will take Sandrson's tact and say the changes due to Rafe's own vision. And as Sandrson also said its okay to disagee with another person's vision when looking at changes in an adaptation. I just simply think that due to the isolation of the Two Rivers and therefore the necessary inbreeding that occured over 2 thousand years having a racially diverse cast of Emmond's Fielder's is a step too far.

 

 

Another point to mention on that is that humans adapt to their environment, it just takes a while. Trace the line back far enough and the fairest of northern Europeans has an African ancestor. The Two Rivers has a northern European climate and after a few thousand years the people would likely look likewise, whatever their starting origins.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jaglover said:

There are lots of indications that the Two Rivers folk are based on the Welsh. So they are Wales, just as Andor is England and Cairhein France. 

There are indications that the Aiel are based on the Zulu, Apache, and Japanese. Yet, they are one of the few cultures he has literally stated has a heritage that is basically Irish.

Again, RJ mixed-and-matched Cultures and Heritages. Just because one culture is based on a culture, doesn't mean they share a heritage!

 

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Yep totally Sanderson’s fault

*Nods*

 

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Well paper is probably enough to figure it Rand isn’t from there ?.

 

As for the native Two River people, I agree the enormous majority of people wouldn’t be able to mark them down as from there based on looks alone. Although a tendency towards wool clothing and braid would suggest so ?.

 

But there are definitely people who you could be almost 100% certain are not from there.

Heck, his Height,Eyes, and Hair are more than enough. :wink:

Plus, I'm sure Elaida and Morgase have both seen an Aiel in their time.

 

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Although let’s be honest the viewers who haven’t read the book aren’t going to be fazed at all, and hopefully this show brings in a ton of new fans so in that sense it really doesn’t matter. Except to us dummies who love to argue about if Moraines’ eyebrows curve at exaaaaaaactly the right angle, or whether there are enough hairs in Perrin’s beard. ?

Perrin has exactly the correct amount of beard hairs.

*nods*

 

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Tam wasn't an outlander.  He was born and raised in the Two Rivers, and left seeking adventure.  It was his wife Kari, who was the outlander.  

 

And nowhere in the entire series does it ever say that no one ever leaves the Two Rivers.

I never stated Tam was an outlander.

The point that was missed here, is that people do leave, and people do come back. And clearly Tam isn't the only one to have left the Two Rivers in the last 2000 years... which is basically what some people are arguing.

 

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I will take Sandrson's tact and say the changes due to Rafe's own vision. And as Sandrson also said its okay to disagee with another person's vision when looking at changes in an adaptation. I just simply think that due to the isolation of the Two Rivers and therefore the necessary inbreeding that occured over 2 thousand years having a racially diverse cast of Emmond's Fielder's is a step too far.

Go read my prior posts, go check the wiki article. People came back, over time. It's never stated in the books how long it took them all to come back. It never states how long it took them to come back, how many generations, or that no one left and came back with wives/husbands from outside Manetheren.

 

It's also a stretch to assume everyone in Emmonds field is an Inbred Cletus.
We have at most, a vague history of the Two Rivers, from several unreliable narrators.

 

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Also the actor chosen to portray Perrin may be large but he has nowhere near the physique of Perrin as written or indeed the physique of any blacksmith's Apprentice.

Yea.. there's this thing called Exercise. Google some Marvel actors transformations before they got casted.

Image result for chris hemsworth before marvel

 

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20 minutes ago, Jaglover said:

Another point to mention on that is that humans adapt to their environment, it just takes a while. Trace the line back far enough and the fairest of northern Europeans has an African ancestor. The Two Rivers has a northern European climate and after a few thousand years the people would likely look likewise, whatever their starting origins.

Possibly?

It's only been 4000 years since the breaking?, which is like 1/5th the amount of time it took for the genetic variation that led to white skin.

We also lack a natural selection tool that would cause genetic lines to die off due to climate.

The exception to this is the Aiel. They live in such a hostile environment that the weakest of them will/did die off... or at least, wandered off to become the Tinkers.

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4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Possibly?

It's only been 4000 years since the breaking?, which is like 1/5th the amount of time it took for the genetic variation that led to white skin.

We also lack a natural selection tool that would cause genetic lines to die off due to climate.

The exception to this is the Aiel. They live in such a hostile environment that the weakest of them will/did die off... or at least, wandered off to become the Tinkers.

 

Not sure of the timeframe you have there?. I cannot find anything to suggest such a long timeframe online. All I can find is that most Europeans had much darker skin 8,000 years ago and then new settlers came from the near east and the new genes for lighter skin quickly swept the continent.

 

It doesn't require a natural disaster just the natural evolutionary advantage of being able to process Vitamin D in a cooler environment without as much strong sunlight, given how crucial Vitamin D is to human health.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Jaglover said:

 

Not sure of the timeframe you have there?. I cannot find anything to suggest such a long timeframe online. All I can find is that most Europeans had much darker skin 8,000 years ago and then new settlers came from the near east and the new genes for lighter skin quickly swept the continent.

 

It doesn't require a natural disaster just the natural evolutionary advantage of being able to process Vitamin D in a cooler environment without as much strong sunlight, given how crucial Vitamin D is to human health.

 

 

*Shrugs* I was thinking it was closer to 20,000 years.

Dammit Sanderson!

 

Either way, there's a glaring issue. This isn't Earth.. (Well, maybe it is. but that's a discussion for another time)

A) The genes that have those physical traits already existed 4000+ years ago.

B) There's a lack of natural selection due to Technology & Magic.

 

What I'm saying is, there is no advantage to being white, or black, in those climates that prevents people from having offspring, causing certain genes to become more prevalent.

We also have a vastly different culture 4000+ years ago in Randland, then Earth did 8000 years ago.

Less Hunter-Gatherer, more 1500's europe/agriculture/kingdoms.

Less men having 10 kids with 50 women to more marriages, with 16 kids.

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3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

*Shrugs* I was thinking it was closer to 20,000 years.

Dammit Sanderson!

 

Either way, there's a glaring issue. This isn't Earth.. (Well, maybe it is. but that's a discussion for another time)

A) The genes that have those physical traits already existed 4000+ years ago.

B) There's a lack of natural selection due to Technology & Magic.

 

What I'm saying is, there is no advantage to being white, or black, in those climates that prevents people from having offspring, causing certain genes to become more prevalent.

We also have a vastly different culture 4000+ years ago in Randland, then Earth did 8000 years ago.

Less Hunter-Gatherer, more 1500's europe/agriculture/kingdoms.

Less men having 10 kids with 50 women to more marriages, with 16 kids.

 

Well as you say it may well be earth or an alternative earth and four thousand years is ample time to achieve the changes required if there are already the genes present in the population (which would already be there in a mixed race population which is what many are proposing).

 

I am not sure what technology/magic is supposed to prevent natural selection. Medical care in the village for the past two thousand years has consisted of one woman who beats people with a stick when they annoy her. Sometimes that woman has been an untrained one source wielder (though almost certainly not as effective in healing as Nynaeve) other times she will have had no power whatsoever and is reliant on local herbs. Mortality is clearly quite high as we have had two characters who have lost three parents in early middle age(Rand and Nynaeve).

 

I'm not sure you are realising how valuable vitamin D is in a world without antibiotics and vaccinations. Until recently even diseases like Tonsillitis could kill children.

 

The other mutation in Europe favoured by natural selection was dairy tolerance. As cows milk is another good source of vitamin D. Again this spread to become dominant because natural selection was so strong.

 

To sum it all up whatever race ended up in the Two Rivers after the breaking four thousand years is plenty to make them all appear like current day Welsh. 

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32 minutes ago, Jaglover said:

Well as you say it may well be earth or an alternative earth and four thousand years is ample time to achieve the changes required if there are already the genes present in the population (which would already be there in a mixed race population which is what many are proposing).

Remember, on Earth, those genes arose as a Mutation.

In Randland, those genes are already present in the population.

 

But, in order for those genes to dominate the gene pool, they have to become dominate. They have to have some social or survival reason for those genes to dominate.
 

The closest example we have of this, is working away from the ability to Channel, in that the Aes Sedia were basically self-sterilizing the population by not breeding, thereby limiting the prevalence of the One Power in the rest of the population.

 

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I am not sure what technology/magic is supposed to prevent natural selection. Medical care in the village for the past two thousand years has consisted of one woman who beats people with a stick when they annoy her. Sometimes that woman has been an untrained one source wielder (though almost certainly not as effective in healing as Nynaeve) other times she will have had no power whatsoever and is reliant on local herbs. Mortality is clearly quite high as we have had two characters who have lost three parents in early middle age(Rand and Nynaeve).

We don't know how effective or in-effective Nyneave's and other Wisdoms herbal medicine is. But that's still leaps and bounds better than Earth had 8000 years ago. :Wink:

 

And, we don't really know what the mortality rate in the 2 Rivers is. AFAIK, everyone is quite healthy except when plagues run through.. But they don't exactly have Vaccines either.

 

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I'm not sure you are realising how valuable vitamin D is in a world without antibiotics and vaccinations. Until recently even diseases like Tonsillitis could kill children.

Sources of Vitamin D: Sauce

 

Agriculturally rich areas like that, got more than enough from Diet.

Milks, Cheeses, Eggs have a year round supply. You can keep various vegetables in root cellars.

Technology all available to the Two Rivers...

That wasn't available 8000 years ago.

 

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To sum it all up whatever race ended up in the Two Rivers after the breaking four thousand years is plenty to make them all appear like current day Welsh. 

And as I've stated before, RJ mixed and matched cultures and Heritages. That was his thing. Just because he said they are culturally welsh, doesn't mean their heritage can't be East-Asian. The Aiel, being Irish was, for whatever reason, his inside joke.

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Since I've only listened to the books, never read them, I've going to have to adjust to hearing someone other than Michael Kramer and Kate Reading as characters.

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This thread has been locked. It veers between off topic conversations and weird racial theories on a good day, all the way to barely disguised bigotry. You have plenty of other places on the Internet if you want to keep discussing this. Go find one of them. 

 

We we will reopen it when they announce more casting news. 

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