Would TG have turned out differently if the Forsaken had been reborn?

[agreddon]

So at the end of LTT's assault on Shayol Ghul, the Forsaken are trapped, but not killed, in the sealing.  My question is would the Chosen have fared better if they had been killed outright and allowed to be reborn (albeit with their memories wiped) vs living with memories of an age that had long since passed.  I'm of the opinion that they would have given the fact that little of that technology survived in the first place and that they were so focused on the past they completely ignored what the new world had to offer.  I don't know if it would have been enough to turn the battle, but it would have definitely be a lot closer.

[DojoToad]

They wouldn’t have had their abilities from the past - compulsion, balefire, traveling. Nor old allies like dark hounds and trollocs. Or at least would have to rediscover. 

[agreddon]

On 5/19/2018 at 3:50 PM, DojoToad said:

They wouldn’t have had their abilities from the past - compulsion, balefire, traveling. Nor old allies like dark hounds and trollocs. Or at least would have to rediscover. 

Compulsion and balefire did exist.  (the dark ajah knew of Compulsion, and Moiraine certainly knew about balefire).  Trollocs and Myrrdraal are still there regardless of whether or not the Forsaken are reborn.  IMO the Forsaken suffered a really bad case of "Old World Blues" ("Age of Legends Blues" I guess).  They couldn't see the present for what it was and adapt their strategies accordingly.  They pinned their hopes on one or two sa'angreal and didn't use what the age offered them.  As a result it was the people that were supposedly backward that were coming up with the new strategies that the Dark Side couldn't imagine in a hundred years (Warder Bonding being the biggest example)

[Forshookt]

I agree that the Forsaken were too sure that they were superior because of their Age they come from and that it led them to underestimate discoveries from the current age. But the only thing that was truly unique in the field of channeling was Warder Bonds ( the viewing gateways were great, but it comes too late to the series). Let's look at it from an AoL perspective. 

 

Here we have a bunch of channelers who are willingly shortening their lifespan, who do npt credit the existence of  dreamworld, who have to ride horses to get anywhere, and are not even that good in battle (in their opinion, since the War of Power was the greatest war ever fought). Would you really respect them? Particularly if you are as arrogant, as self-centered and vain as the Forsaken?

 

Also, the Warder bond would require TRUST, something the Forsaken see as a welcome mat to death. Even black sisters chafe under the warder bond when they bonded light aligned warders. Only Verin and one other Black sister had a Dark friend warder, IIRC. No wonder a lot Black Ajah are Red, it removes thatc complication. 

 

Do you really see the Forsaken bonding anyone as Warders? They will never bond anyone from the Third age, that's just demeaning. Besides, even if that DF warder is too intimidated to backstab a Forsaken, when they die, its a massive blow to the Forsaken. If you Compel the poor fool, who's to say how that will affect you? The sister Semirhage was torturing certainly regretted it. 

 

Finally, THEY WiLL NEVER BOND ONE ANOTHER. The Forsaken are cagey enough just talking to one another, and get paranoid when FORMING CIRCLES. A warder bond is just too much trust and power to give another person. 

[Forshookt]

But, if it comes to understanding the Third Age a using it to great advantage, Demandred takes the cake. His manipulation/fulfilment of Saharan prophecy? Flawless. He beats Graendal in that aspect. His major flaw was his ego. 

[Sabio]

Forsaken aren't about trust, they are selfish and self serving.  I could see a warder bond but it would have to be something where they would be fully in control, more like a willing slave.  But in the end why would they want to risk themselves if something happened to that person. Easier for them to just use compulsion. 

 

It's different for the BA, a warder is still protection.  Many of the BA outside the Reds had warders, many were also DF's but for BA, the world is still dangerous and warders come in handy.  But this is why a lot of thought gets put into warders, since your life depends on making good choices.

 

Had the forsaken just of been people from Rand's age it would of lost a lot of it's impact. Their reputation of being all powerful boogeymen helped drive fear into the story.  

Edited May 22, 2018 by Sabio

[TheSociopath]

Well, lets try to list out everything that they would have lost and gained. 

Lost:

Darkhounds (to an extent)

Gholam

traveling

various angreal and Sa'angreal

complete compulsion

Tel'aran'Rhiod

the fear factor

a good deal of knowledge we never hear about

all of the combat weaves we see Rand use at the end of the series.

 

Gain: less disdain for current world.

 

 

If Rand and his allies learned all of Lews Therin's knowledge, and the DF's only had a bit of trickle down from the BT, it would have been slanted a lot more to Rands side. Not to mention how much trouble they would have coordinating and spinning plots if they didn't have traveling. 

 

Shara would be removed from the equation, most of the first book's plot would have to be completely redone, ie, no Ishamael tormenting the taveren in dreams

 

Furthermore, the BA didn't have true compulsion. Both Liandrin and Verin's version had conditions.

[thehumantrashcan]

I think it all just comes down to the fact that they had a an incredible upper hand and let it go to waste because of their in fighting and pride.  Imagine if one of them wasn't nearly as prideful as depicted in the book and made a point of learning any of the healing weaves for Nyn, or the warding spell, or really anything that was available.  I believe the only thing they could have benefited from was knowing about the Seachan and utilizing them more and maybe .  They were blind to the knowledge of the abilities of the time but there wasn't much to be blind to when it came to using the OP.  But they were blind to their true enemies because they focused to much on their fellow Chosen and themselves.

[TheSociopath]

yeah. Although I think that even if they were from this age, they'd still be much too focused on their infighting.

[Sabio]

They would, since selfishness etc are traits the DO looks for and wants in his followers. As Rand pointed out it's one of the DO's flaws, he doesn't inspire his followers to make willing sacrifices to say save everyone.   He wants followers who look out for themselves since concepts like the greater good and self sacrifice etc are foreign to him.  

[Orderofolde]

You have to remember that the Forsaken trapped at the sealing of the Bore were the strongest and the only ones left alive by that time.  Many had been killed, and not just by the forces of Light.  The Forsaken plotted and schemed and double-crossed one another all the time.  

 

Basically they were all reborn, or rather, they were replaced with new forsaken and Dreadlords which kind of took their place.  Those turned against their will, those darkfriends who could channel that went to be trained by Taim...I'm sure off screen Taim and his few trusted lackeys were testing all the male darkfriends they could.  And then Demi went and converted (freed) an entire nation of channelers gaining many hundreds of male and female channelers who kind of didn't seem to care who they served.  

 

Then there was the Black Ajah who lost a good number of their people in the culling.  Much like Jordan believed, especially with the Wheel turning, history repeated itself.  Or a version of it.  It is kind of hard to believe, but LTT and Rand are from two different parts of history...one doomed to fail, and the other the true savior, both are the same soul, yet both need one another in order to exist.  There will someday be a society who had forgotten the Dark One, who tries to use him for a source of new power, and is duped into boring a hole.  The new Rand will come along and rebalance everything so that for thousands of years people will live in relative safety and will achieve a gaia-like existence, forgetting their history, even the Source at some point, and it all starts over.