The Brilliance of a Woman Dominated Culture

[Hirez]

Hi! New here. I am going through WOT for the second time and am back to book seven.  When I first went through the series about 5 years ago I just gunned through it.  Going back through again made me appreciate it a bit more. There is one piece in general that I think is brilliant. I have seen some talk about it on other threads I have looked at in here. That is the emergence of female dominated orientation to the cultural.  

I think Jordan demonstrated some very insightful thoughts on what would happen if women had a form of power that could not be overcome, and men who could channel, and by default men in general, were put in a culturally subservient role. 

While I echo the criticism that Jordan did a weak job of interpersonal engagement between men and women, I think overall the structure of the societies built round women who could channel was phenomenal. 

Also, I think the arrogance and myopic view that the White tower took towards men who could channel and the Dragon Reborn was right in line with that. If for 3,000 years you were tasked with protecting the world from men who could channel, had a form of close to absolute power, and relatively isolated yourself from common people who couldn't channel, you would have a society like what was built around the White Tower. 

I am hoping the TV show can capture this accurately and smooth out some of the ham handed way Jordan wrote the female characters.

[Ryrin]

You said it. That was one of the most fascinating things about Jordan's world. I've never thought about this in relation to the TV show, but I hope they can capture it as well, without the pettiness/bewilderness with which Jordan saw females.

[Hirez]

I saw a pettiness and bewilderness in the writing for both male and female. But to a degree I think it makes sense.  If you overly a feudal based society, with (generally speaking) a conservative culture, that had women hold both physical power (channeling) and institutional power (the tower, Wisdom's etc) then I  could see a high level of pettiness actually be a normal consequence of that behavior. Because it happens (although not as two - dimensional as Jordan wrote it) in real life in certain social and economic arrangements. 

 

What I think Jordan's problem was, was that he allowed his characters to evolve in regard to the application of power but didn't really allow them to evolve within their gender. There was just no nuance in gender relations. But I absolutely can see based upon the social structure he created why they approach the male relationships the way they did. Even if in many ways it was super-ham handed writing.

[szilard]

I hope that you are joking. Just a joke, right?

 

#equilibrium

[solarz]

You know, a lot of readers assume that RJ just inverted the traditional gender roles and made women dominant.

 

However, if that was really the case, why did he make men stronger, not only physically but also in the Power?

 

I think there's something a lot more subtle going on.

 

If we look at Rand's visions, we see that shortly after the breaking, men had the leadership role. Women were largely powerless, prey to hostile men and depending on their own men to protect or rescue them. As we progress through the visions, we see that when the Jenn Aiel called the clans to Rhuidean, it was the Wise Ones who relayed the messages through Dreaming. This provides a good explanation for how Aiel Wise Ones attained their position of power: the ability to communicate through Dreams, or to find new sites of water, would give them great amount of influence. So far that we can see, there are no male Dreamers, even though Dreaming is not explicitly tied to Channeling.

 

If we look at Emond's Field, we can see that similiarly, the Wisdom is a doctor and the weather channel rolled into one. The last is almost as important for farmers as the former is. While not all Wisdom could Channel, there seemed to be a tradition of apprenticing "sparkers" (based on Nynaeve's recollection of girls who died from channeling sickness). Also pertinently, the weather forecasting ability is tied to channeling. This evolved to make the Wisdom a highly respected position.

 

Interestingly enough, Ebou Dar is a matriarchal society, and it has highly respected wise women as well. We can speculate that they might have followed the same line of evolution as Emond's Field. Weather forecasting would be even more important for fishermen than for farmers.

 

In places like Caemlyn or Cairhien, where the matriarchy is not as pronounced (even though Andor always has a Queen, there are no other signs of matriarchy in Caemlyn), we do not see the same level of respect for wise women.

 

The Borderlands are different still. Borderlanders are extremely chivalrous regarding women, but there's no indication that women hold a higher position of power than men. Borderlanders are protective of women, which makes sense in a society that is constantly at war, but they send women who can channel to the White Tower instead of letting them hold positions of influence at home. Of course, AS have great influence in the Borderlands, but AS influence does not directly translate into female influence.

 

This bring me back to the question of why are men stronger in the Power? We know that the Age of Legends was a comparatively egalitarian society, but if Saidin had not been tainted, village Wisdoms and Aiel Wise Ones would not have the kind of influence that they do. (Of course, the world would not have been broken either, but let's leave that aside for now...)

 

False Dragons, especially those who could channel, had shaken Randland's history. From Raolin Darksbane to Logaine Ablar, False Dragons were the ultimate manifestations of male power. They were feared and hated after death, even though they attracted legions of followers in life.

 

This makes me believe that Jordan did not set out to create a female-dominated world. Instead, he set out to create a world where men and women held power in equal measure but in different areas. However, we readers, being used to a male-dominated world, jump to the conclusion that such a world is female-dominated, much like how Rand, upon first reaching Baerlon, thought it was a Great City.

[szilard]

solarz, I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote but I will reply only on next week.

 

Here's a few quotes for you and OP.

 

Quote

For instance, I've been accused by somer people of ignoring the feminist struggle. Well, there is no feminist struggle in this world, because there is no need for one. No one says a woman can't do this because she is a woman. A woman wants to be a blacksmith, she can learn to be a blacksmith, and she becomes a blacksmith, or a merchant or a wagondriver, or a worker on the docks, or wherever else. All of that took place, took place a long time ago. And they're very good at it. That sets the whole reasons why this should come about. Three thousand years ago the world was destroyed, by men. There is one group that has survived for that three thousand years, one organization that has managed to stick together for three thousand years, and have a great influence on history, and that is a group of women.

 

Quote

 

On the large scale, the gender relationships in the Wheel grew from the very beginnings of the books, really.  I recall seeing a paperback book back in the 70s, a fantasy novel about a young woman who wasn’t allowed to become a magician of whatever sort it was because she was a woman.  The notion struck me as interesting, since it was the first fantasy novel with that theme that I had ever seen, but what really stuck with me was this.  That novel was a simple reflection of the then-current mundane world, but what about if it were men who were not allowed to become whatever it was?  Now that would be an interesting twist, and unexpected.  Why would that be, and how could it be enforced?  As Harriet has often pointed out, many of the world’s gender inequalities stem from superior male upper body strength.  (To which I usually say, “Oh, dear!  Isn’t that awful and unfair!”  While pulling off my shirt and flexing my biceps, to be sure,)  From that genesis grew the division of the One Power into a male and a female half with the male half tainted, giving a reason why men not only would not be allowed to become Aes Sedai, as they were not then called, but must not be allowed even to channel, again as it was not then called.  From that, and from the history that I was even then beginning to put together for this world, though I didn’t realize it then, came the result of 3000+ plus years when men who can wield the ultimate power, the One Power, are to be feared and hated above all things, when the only safety from such men comes from the one stable center of political, and other, power for those 3000+ years, a female center of power.  The view I then had was a world with a sort of gender equality.  Not the matriarchy that some envision  — Far Madding is the only true matriarchy in the lot — but gender equality as it might work out given various things that seem to be hard-wired into male and female brains.  The result is what you see.

Now in most of these societies — Far Madding is the obvious exception — I did not and do not view them as matriarchal.  I attempted to design societies that were as near gender balanced as to rights, responsibilities and power as I could manage.  It doesn’t all work perfectly.  People have bellybuttons.  If you want to see someone who always behaves logically, never tells small lies or conceals the truth in order to put the best face for themselves on events, and never, ever tries to take advantage of any situation whatsoever, then look for somebody without a bellybutton.  The real surprise to me was that while I was designing these gender balanced societies, people were seeing matriarchies.

 

 

Quote

there are plenty of reasons for men and women to have a certain degree of distrust, though the fact that many Aes Sedai have Warders and good relationships with them shows that it isn’t all mistrust.  How much trust do most men and women have for the opposite gender here and now?  I trust Harriet with my life, but look at how most people are.  Look at most women’s views of men, and most men’s views of women.  There is a lot of distrust right there.  As for the Forsaken, they don’t trust anybody.  Gender doesn’t enter into it.

 

Quote

the Healing of stilling must be done by the other gender to be fully effective.  A woman Healing a woman or a man Healing a man results in less than full restoration.  It all ties into that theme I keep harping on.  Men and women have to work together to be their most effective.  And while the weave used by Flinn for Healing is not exactly that used by Nynaeve, either would use the same weave on a man or a woman.

 

[Sabio]

I think RJ was trying to balance things

Borderlands king or queen

Andor queen

Seanchan king or queen but has been a queen for hundreds of year

Tear and Illian seem mostly men

Tarabon has both a male and female

Cairhien can have king or queen

Amadicia a king (nothing if can also be a queen)

Altara who ever has the most power

Murandy - who ever has the most power

Arad Doman a king

 

 

Some seem a bit odd for instance having a female council and  a council for men like in the Two Rivers, seems like a poor attempt to show both sexes are equal and have power.

 

Always seemed to me he was trying to balance men and women as leaders.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Sabio

[szilard]

On 2018. január 26. at 10:04 PM, Sabio said:

Some seem a bit odd for instance having a female council and  a council for men like in the Two Rivers, seems like a poor attempt to show both sexes are equal and have power.

 

Or maybe he just based this on real history.

 

solarz, I promised you a reply but my browser just ate my post (DON'T PANIC! You haven't lost anything ), and I hate re-typing meaningless posts, so you have to to fall back upon with these short remarks.

 

On 2018. január 26. at 9:40 PM, solarz said:

However, if that was really the case, why did he make men stronger, not only physically but also in the Power?

 

RJ: "Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree."

 

On 2018. január 26. at 9:40 PM, solarz said:

If we look at Rand's visions, we see that shortly after the breaking, men had the leadership role. Women were largely powerless, prey to hostile men and depending on their own men to protect or rescue them. As we progress through the visions, we see that when the Jenn Aiel called the clans to Rhuidean, it was the Wise Ones who relayed the messages through Dreaming. This provides a good explanation for how Aiel Wise Ones attained their position of power: the ability to communicate through Dreams, or to find new sites of water, would give them great amount of influence. So far that we can see, there are no male Dreamers, even though Dreaming is not explicitly tied to Channeling.

 

Interesting cocnclusion... (Dreaming and dreamwalking are totally different things.)

 

The bulk of your post shows that you totally misunderstand Jordan's vision/thoughts, but you have every right to interpret the novels on your ground. But maybe that's a good thing, we need different thoughts, different povs.

 

Finally, a quick reply regarding these words.

 

On 2018. január 26. at 9:40 PM, solarz said:

False Dragons, especially those who could channel, had shaken Randland's history. From Raolin Darksbane to Logaine Ablar, False Dragons were the ultimate manifestations of male power. They were feared and hated after death, even though they attracted legions of followers in life.

 

I'd really like to see a longer post on that, because I think people (in the the novels) exaggerate their deeds ("Men who shook the pillars of heaven and rocked the world on its foundations." Yeah, sure.), their impact. It looks like that 'somebody' helped to create false Dragons from time to time just to maintain the dominance of the WT. Just my 2c.

 

[wotfan4472]

An interesting question szilard about the False Dragons. I think the question calls for a separate thread. I have an idea.

Edited January 29, 2018 by wotfan4472

[Sabio]

I am trying to think in history when towns had a council of just men to run parts of town and a council of just women to run other parts of the town.  This isn't like a committe that's formed to make suggestions, this would be like a town telling men ok you vote for this council and women vote for that council.  The men handle internal issues, women handle external etc..    Oh and by the way the lady in charge of healing/weather will constantly come around to yell/bully/ and insult you daily.

 

 

[solarz]

6 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Oh and by the way the lady in charge of healing/weather will constantly come around to yell/bully/ and insult you daily.

 

LMAO!

[szilard]

On 1/29/2018 at 10:24 AM, wotfan4472 said:

An interesting question szilard about the False Dragons. I think the question calls for a separate thread. I have an idea.

 

I'd like to hear about it!