Eqwene's Seanchan woman dream

[GrandpaG]

"We'll see".

 

Maybe it won't be part of AMoL at all...maybe it was just a normal dream.  She does have normal dreams, too, right?  And she can't always tell which dreams are foretelling?  Time will tell.  Then I'll have to find something else to occupy my time  :(.

[Auld Manriva]

I don't see any of this coming to pass.. How do the Seanchan threaten the Tower itself.?.. They arent goin to just walk up to it. No way. Besides, Rand is still aiming to make a peace so they will join the rest in the big fight! There isn't time for a plotline like that to take place. Mat is gonna be busy springing Moiraine, but I think he is gonna be somehow involved in Rand making a truce of sorts with them. Not only that but the Seanchan are in severe disarray. They have no power base now at all, except the lands they have taken so far. Seanchan itself is a land in chaos and no help at all to Tuon.

 

The oath rod idea is an interesting one though. Controlling the SC channelers with out collars.

 

[GrandpaG]

I don't see any of this coming to pass.. How do the Seanchan threaten the Tower itself.?.. They arent goin to just walk up to it. No way. Besides, Rand is still aiming to make a peace so they will join the rest in the big fight! There isn't time for a plotline like that to take place. Mat is gonna be busy springing Moiraine, but I think he is gonna be somehow involved in Rand making a truce of sorts with them. Not only that but the Seanchan are in severe disarray. They have no power base now at all, except the lands they have taken so far. Seanchan itself is a land in chaos and no help at all to Tuon.

 

The oath rod idea is an interesting one though. Controlling the SC channelers with out collars.

 

 

 

Mat is going to accidentally provide his wife with the secret of Travelling...then watch out!

[Auld Manriva]

That'd be interesting. I don't know that he's even goin to see her anytime soon though.. The man has is plate stacked tall, and seein as he doesn't know how himself, but only knows of it. Ehhh, could beeeeeeee.  ;)...

 

She would have to have a damane learn though and do it for her. Her channeling has been stuffed in a closet and not developed therefore, I don't thing she would be strong enough to accomplish it herself. The only female SC under her  to have seen a gateway are croaked or captured. Hmmmmm ...  except the ones survivin' Semis' debacle.... There's a lot of obstacles to having the SC traveling to any great degree by the end of one last book.

 

Gettin the buggers to help, is gonna be a plot manipulatin' masterpiece in itself.

[cloglord]

I don't see any of this coming to pass.. How do the Seanchan threaten the Tower itself.?.. They arent goin to just walk up to it. No way. Besides, Rand is still aiming to make a peace so they will join the rest in the big fight! There isn't time for a plotline like that to take place. Mat is gonna be busy springing Moiraine, but I think he is gonna be somehow involved in Rand making a truce of sorts with them. Not only that but the Seanchan are in severe disarray. They have no power base now at all, except the lands they have taken so far. Seanchan itself is a land in chaos and no help at all to Tuon.

 

Of course this willl happen.  The Seanchan have been planning an attack on the white tower since CoT.  Egwene had a prophetic dream that she describes as the first dream that she completely understood, a dream that told her that the Seanchan were going to attack the white tower, and shake it to its core.

[Auld Manriva]

Attack the WT and shake it to its core........... that could mean anything.. Prophecy can come to pass in dozens of ways. And does in the WoT as well as our world.. Jordan has show that numerous times already. There isn't an of course this or that will happen in this whole series....

 

 

[cloglord]

There isn't an of course this or that will happen in this whole series....

 

Um, yes there is.  There are a whole bunch of them clumped together, I'm pretty sure they are called "The PRophecies of the Dragon."  Min's viewings tend to be sure things as well, and this specific instance of Egwene's dream falls into this category as well.  The Seanchan will attack the tower, it will happen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Seanchan will most certainly attack the White Tower in A Memory of Light.  That has been one of Tuon's main goals since joining the Return (the other being the leashing of Rand al'Thor).  The Aes Sedai are the biggest threat, ideologically and tactically, to the Seanchan conquest of Randland.  Troops are probably already in position at the time that Tuon returned to Ebou Dar at the end of Knife of Dreams.  The land around Tar Valon is uninhabited for vast stretches, and to'raken are capable of flying from Seanchan held territories, fully loaded, in fewer than five stops, all of which would be over uninhabited land.  The Seanchan could have assembled a full strike force 100 to 150 miles from Tar Valon, and nobody would really know about it.  From that distance, the to'raken could carry them all in simultaneously, in a night strike such as was carried out in Amadicia.  Three relatively small strike forces could land damane-backed troops at two gates and on top of the Tower (the top of which is long enough to land a to'raken, and high enough for it to take off again).  From there they would be a real threat to the city.

 

In short, there is every reason to believe that Egwene's Dream means exactly what she thinks it means; the Seanchan will attack the White Tower, with real consequence, and fairly imminently.  This may well be the opening action in A Memory of Light.

 

Edited: speeling erors

[Trib4l]

I'm personally hoping that it is or is part of the prologue. That would be a killer opening for the book at this point. We know it's coming, we know it's going to be messy, but we also know it's not the main battle. So why not capture our interest with a massive battle right at the beginning? The Galad/Valda duel in KoD certainly got me interested early.

[Thorum]

I don't think it will be in the prologue.

 

It's too large:

 

1) Seanchan has to get to Tar Valon

2) Seanchan has to pass rebel Aes Sedai (or team up? <-- via Tuon-Mat-Moiraine/Nynaeve/...???)

3) Seanchan has to pass younglings (or team up?)

4) Seanchan has to do something to the White Tower, so Eggy can get the power in there

 

Maybe part 1 in the prologue. But the rest...

[Trib4l]

That was more my thinking, but I didn't make it clear. If the battle would start in the prologue, that would kick some serious bunny. I'd love to see the to'raken landing on the roof with the POV as that of the landing party overtaking any guards set up there.

[Thorum]

ever seen the movie Air Force One? You'll like the start

[Trib4l]

With the Spec Ops troops dropping in at night? Yeah, that is an awesome scene.

[Thorum]

It's exactly what you described.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Except for the dragon-like creatures and the whole One Power bit ... and the huge White Tower ...

 

;D

 

Oh, and I hope its NOT in the prologue, because I don't want it to be that short.  But it could start in Chapter One ...

[Thorum]

helicopters and machine-guns are nut much worse than those dragon-likes (what's there name again) and damane.

 

And the palace was very large (okay, not a tower, but lower, more like Westminster)

[Auld Manriva]

There isn't an of course this or that will happen in this whole series....

 

Um, yes there is.  There are a whole bunch of them clumped together, I'm pretty sure they are called "The PRophecies of the Dragon."  Min's viewings tend to be sure things as well, and this specific instance of Egwene's dream falls into this category as well.  The Seanchan will attack the tower, it will happen.

 

Let's see.... Ummmmm.. The Prophecies of the Dragon.. Whats that word? Oh yeah.... Prophecy! Look it up. Better yet read or listen to what Jordan says about prophecy in his own words.. The prediction has been made, somebody archive this thread and when the Super Bowl is over we shall see. Until then its all Prophecy, ie. conjecture.....

 

Mins viewings certainly do come to pass, for the most part. I stand cørrected.  Egwene in no way rivals Min for accuracy in her interpretations of her dreams though. That the WT is in danger from the Seanchan isnt what I debate. It's how the Seanchan endanger them.

 

The WT is not some feeble CoL outpost, oh pardon me.. Their headquarters....  The most overrated slugs in the whole series. Yeah they could fly on To'raken... How many are available? They have trouble in every land they occupy. How many would they have to fly in to take on 300 in the Tower and 300 outside and who knows how many other unaligned sisters in the general area? Thats a tall order and the Seanchan don't usually move unless they know or think they will win.

 

I just think it's unlikely, but........ we'll see

[cloglord]

Jordan never said that prophecy was conjecture, he said that it was open to interpretation.  How many ways can you interpret that the dragon reborn will pull callanor out of the stone?  Just because you don't understand the prophecies don't make them any less likely to be true.  They must happen, wether it is how you or I envision them happening is something else, but they are sure things.  Moraine, I believe, has a slightly different take on prophecy saying that it sets out the conditions for success, and that it isn't a sure thing.  Then again, she did a really good job interpreting that lost and forsaken city/send the spears to war, prophecy in TSR.  She's not the creator.  BTW, I did look it, up, a prophecy is the divinely inspired utterances of a prophet.  A prophet is defined as someone who reveals the will of God.  So if Prophecy is the divinely inspired utterance of the will of God, I'd say that's pretty much locked down.

 

Oh, and we don't need to archive this to prove you wrong ,when the time comes, I've got a whole other thread just for that purpose, I'll put this prediction there.

[Luckers]

Firstly, Egwene does quite often interperet her dreams wrong, just as Min sometimes interperets her viewings wrong. But the fact is that according to RJ, we know that sometimes her dreams comes with the knowledge of what they mean; this is not comprable to Min or anyone else interpreting prophecy, for the knowledge is actually a part of the prophecy.

 

Aside from which, we have seperate verification supporting Egwene's in interpretation in the stories. We have seen Seanchan generals studying the Tower and we know that the raken and to'raken have already been gathered for the attack, and yes, before you say it, we know that it is an attack against the Tower since at this stage the Seanchan only have three fronts that would require the sort of planning and building of forces as we have seen; Arad Domon and Illian are both dismissed by Galgen, and that leaves only the Tower. Add to that everything that Robert pointed out, and yes, we can say for sure that not only has an attack against the Tower been planned, its also almost certainly already been launched.

 

Yeah they could fly on To'raken... How many are available? They have trouble in every land they occupy. How many would they have to fly in to take on 300 in the Tower and 300 outside and who knows how many other unaligned sisters in the general area? Thats a tall order and the Seanchan don't usually move unless they know or think they will win.

 

Based on Galgen's comments, and that of the raken farmer, we know that every to'raken as well as a great many raken have been gathered for the attack; essentially aside from giving Turan some raken to deal with Interulde, they've stripped the land.

 

This means they can land a force numbering some 12,000 to 13,000 (there are conflicting comments about how much weight a to'raken can carry, but whether you accept the lower, or the higher weight limit, it still allows for a larger enough force that it makes no difference) on the top of the tower within a week. My guess is that around 3,000 will be damane, 4,000 will be sul'dam, and the other 6,000 will be soldiers. It is my belief that they will not want to hold the city so much as hold the tower. With 3,000 damane thats easily possible, and from there its simply a matter of waiting for reinforcements; which are possible either by air, or as i suspect is the case, by an actual army sent through the Caralain Grass.

 

That being said, most of that last is conjecture based on my beliefs abot what parts the Seanchan will play in Tarmon Gai'don. Cloglord will tell you that the dream indicates that the Seanchan assault will be more of a strike. They will land, capture the Aes Sedai in the Tower and move off. Whilst i don't believe this is the case, it is suggestively supported by the dream.

 

In either case yes, we do know for sure that a Seanchan assault against the Tower will take place, and that that assault will be in the form of to'raken.

 

 

Oh, and I hope its NOT in the prologue, because I don't want it to be that short.  But it could start in Chapter One ...

 

My belief is that at the very end of the prologue a character will hear flapping, or maybe running footsteps, or catch sight of 'a great, bat-like thing'. Essentially I think the Seanchan will be arriving as the prologue ends.

[Charlz Guybon]

If you are a proponent of the 10-15 million people (as a total population) in Randland

 

A bit of a tangent, but that number is insanely low, mind bogglingly low. That's more like the population of Shienar by itself. Randland is roughly 3,000 miles by 2,400 miles, that's nearly as large as the US and Canada combined, three times the size of western Europe, a whole 7.2 million sq. miles. If I was told a continent that big and fertile had a population between 10-15 million I'd expect most of the populace to be at the Neolithic level, with a few bronze age city states in the sourthern most  river valleys.

 

Now the population of the land has plummeted since it's height prior to the Trolloc Wars, but the population is still going to be quite large. People don't realize how well populated a medieval country can be. France had 20,000,000 people in 1300 and never managed to put more than 60,000 men under arms in the same place at once. Yet we see Elayne contemplating rising an army to match the one the Borderlander's brought south, an army that is 200,000 strong.

 

If the land had an overall population density before the Trolloc Wars comparable to medieval France at it's height in 1300, before the great famine and the black death, than that would be 100 people per sq. mile. This isn't an unreasonable estimate, most of the land is flat, and well watered, and presumably arable. Feudal Japan managed to have a similarly sized population as France, despite the fact that 90% of the country is Mountainous.

 

That comes out to a population of 720,000,000 people. Now currently, great swaths of the land are unpopulated while others still remain densely populated.  Lets say if you average it out, the mean is now 35 per sq. mile, that's still 252,000,000 people.

 

Now that may seem extremely large, but it's the only way that the large armies bandied about make sense. Feudal states can only afford to put a tiny fraction of the population under arms, they just didn't have the capability of an industrial state to wage total war. It's also the only way cities as large as Caemlyn could have been supported. One must remember that for every person in a city there are another ninety nine in the countryside farming.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Umm... those 50,000 are actually 100,000. And none of them are especially experienced, barring the few left overs from the Aiel War. Not that that is an issue, as KoD shows us, 50 channelers equals 100,000 soldiers (actually, trollocs, which by their phsyicality are far more dangerous then soldiers).

...

 

They leash all Aes sedai before the outcry is even raised, and if a couple escapes, so what. Certainly not enough to challange Seanchan hold of the Tower, even if all two hundred escaped. They hold the tower--easily, for they are significantly stronger. Again, as KoD shows, each 50 equals 100,000.

 

 

This ignores the most important aspect of that battle in KoD; that there were no channelers with the Trollocs. If there had been even 5 mediocre Black Ajah members to deal with Rand & co. would have been toast. As we saw at Dumai Wells when the Shaido attacked the Aes Sedai, a much smaller force can hold off a larger force for quite a long time. The Aes Sedai were better at using the power as a weapon than the Shaido but they were still outnumbered 10 to 1 and still managed to hold out until Perrin and co. arrived. If there are a 100 Aes Sedai running interference for the Tower Guard, than I can't see how the Guard won't just overwhelm the Seanchan.

 

I expect that Elaida, and several dozen, perhaps even a hundred Aes Sedai will be leashed, before the tide turns, but the discrepancy in forces available are so heavily in the Aes Sedai's favor that the Seanchan forces should be crushed. It really is an operation that borders on the insane, and I think the Seanchan general staff most have been influenced by the Shadow to consider it.

[cloglord]

Cloglord will tell you that the dream indicates that the Seanchan assault will be more of a strike. They will land, capture the Aes Sedai in the Tower and move off. Whilst i don't believe this is the case, it is suggestively supported by the dream.

 

Hallelujah! Someone finally took something I said seriously without feeling the need to flat out marginalize it.  I thought that the pigs were jumping higher than normal today...

[lou]

did you all forget the rebel army that would stand between the seanchan and the tower? how will that play into the whole battle?

[Charlz Guybon]

did you all forget the rebel army that would stand between the seanchan and the tower? how will that play into the whole battle?

 

I assume they'll gate in and intervene against the Seanchan, either on their own initiative or after Egwene escapes and rallies.

[algspkr]

The Seanchan assult could be marginal, but still have a devistating psychological effect on the Aes Sedai as the Doo Little raid on Japan did in World War II, not that that attacks effects were truely devistating.