Sylvie was...

[Graendals favourite]

Mesaana. I know Sylvie is often thought as Lanfear, but Sylvie's behaviaur always seemed beyond Lanfear. She was more arrogant. I then thought it Graendal, as much as I would attribute everything female Graendal, she has her interest in the west. I can't believe a major theory wasn't she wasn't Mesaana. It's just her. Of course she wasn't introduced yet, but she could do it. And she ended up ruling the tower.

[Graendals favourite]

I just listeneded to the audiobook The Dragon Reborn chapter Tel'Aran'Rhiod, and it struck me that was Mesaana. Yea, it couldn't have been out of character Moghedien, since she learnt of events in the next book. That was Mesaana, I just say so!

[Orderofolde]

Mesaana. I know Sylvie is often thought as Lanfear, but Sylvie's behaviaur always seemed beyond Lanfear. She was more arrogant. I then thought it Graendal, as much as I would attribute everything female Graendal, she has her interest in the west. I can't believe a major theory wasn't she wasn't Mesaana. It's just her. Of course she wasn't introduced yet, but she could do it. And she ended up ruling the tower.

Sylvie was Lanfear.  She prided herself in her looks, true, but that was a weakness she used as a strength from time to time, like when she posed as the fat merchant woman traveling the waste with Kadere and his wagons.  We really didn't know enough about Mesaana at the time and Graendal wouldn't have posed as an old woman, she was always very touchy about every little detail like we see when she and Sammael approach the Aiel with the fool boxes.  Moggy operated from the shadows where she likes to hide, and Semi was too busy in Seanchan.  Lanfear several times appeared to Rand and Perrin and even Mat to feel them out and tempt them and to amuse herself in helping them.

[Sabio]

Well we know Graendal would pose as an old women, since that was her disguise in her keep.  But 99.99999% sure it was Lanfear.. 

[Graendals favourite]

Grandal could's be she, otherwise she could, but she has interest otherwere.

 

Now Lanfear through her pride seems to always give herself afay, if one is looking. Mesaana, obviously didn't- She was perfectly camouclaged. Lanfrear seemed to give herself away every 1 in 5 things she said, but Mesaana did not.

 

This makes sense on the Dragon Reborn book, perhaps I not recount everything it makes sense for.

 

And there's the later mention, I don't remember by which female Forsaken, Graendal?, that she he always seemed the weeked, she had been proud of the trap in the Stone, but she couln'dt deliver. Whether she could deliver ot not, I think Silvie was an unknown forsaken i.e. Mesaana, and ....

[Graendals favourite]

Sylvie didn't dive herself away, save thinking bad of Ishamael. She was Mesaana, not Lanfear, she has more patience.

[Graendals favourite]

Lanfear is so supreme or confident in her power, she always gives hints. Like in that netherland, Rand and Loyal and Hurin, she was too obviously atractive, and she called those monsters. I don't believe Lanfear would have been able to speak so the Egwene. And she spoke to her earlier, before the chapter Ter'aran'rhiod. But In that chapter, I can't see it was her, rather an unknown Forsaken.

[Graendals favourite]

And lets cut the bush, it be anyone else, it is Mesaana, Semirhage would have been in Seachan lands, Graendal in Arad Doman, Moghenian, although she generally learned of many things, she leaned of it next book, that leaved Mesaana, the one who someone stated was proud of the trap in the stone of Tear, Graendal was contemptous of her also for making claims she could not deliver on. True, there's no Lanfear on this, but why should she have been involved in everything. And why woud Mesaana have talked of her dealings with Lanfear.

[wotfan4472]

Silvie was Lanfear. She also sniffed out Egwene in the Tower. It was definitely Lanfear, especially since she would know to spot a Dreamer in training and want to stop her from learning. This encounter also explains why Egwene was hurt more by Lanfear's attack later on in FoH. Because she had improved since the Silvie encounter, and was watching the Wise Ones teach Egwene in the World of Dreams itself since she mentioned it, and was intimidated that Egwene would outstrip her like Moghedien did. The Silvie encounter was to test Egwene's Dreaming potential, as much as to aid Be'lal set his trap.

[Sabio]

Also don't forget Lanfear by this time had already been in the tower in disguise.  But more importantly in the companion it says "She considered Tel'aran'rhoid her personal property.

 

Since Lanfear at this point was the only female forsaken we see active, there is no reason to suspect anyone else.

[Sabio]

Right I just read this under Lanfear in the companion :  "Posing as Silvie, she attempted to bamboozle Egwene in the World of Dreams."  Mes to me would of made more sense, but it was simply more of Lanfear playing her own games.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, then I was wrong. Sylvie was Lanfear.

 

I have only one other tidbit to offer, I won't create a topic for it. Had been wondering why Ishamael made all the effort to torture the souls, aside from general evilness, it occured to me he was preparing the souls in order to prepare them to be in Trolloc or Myrddraal bodies. Or other Shadowspawn. Shadowspawn must have souls too, it strikes me someone tortured for demi-eternity might embrace the chance of being even in a Shadowspawn body. The origin of that thought process is wolves becoming Darkhounds, there must be a process there too, though the only think I know is that Slayers seemed to bend over a killed wolf.

 

Edit: demi-eternity is nicer than semi-eternity.

[Sabio]

Darkhounds at least were wolf soul.  The companion says a 100 wolves could die trying to kill one darkhound, if they failed, the darkhound could eat the souls of those that were not quite dead and create more darkhounds.    My guess is some of the souls were DF's who failed or disappointed Ishy so that's their reward for following the DO.  Maybe that's the true fate of all DF's.  I remember RAND in AMOL worrying that Trollocs and such were souls that had been twisted and were doomed to forever be Trolloc (or something like that)

 

I like you idea about Sylvie, Mes would of made a lot more sense being in the WT.  But sadly RJ pretty much ignored mes for a lot of the series.

[Graendals favourite]

Clearly all the Darkfriends of the whole age are kept there in limbo, they are tortured to be sure the knife doesn't turn in the hand, one cannot talk any Myrddraal, Draghkar, or Trolloc to turn side. They are absolutely realiable for the Dark One which is what the Dark One wants of his servants, as Verin speculated. All of them, since the Dark One never willingly relinquishes a hold he has. Perhaps, I should like to think, Verin was excluded, Ingtar was excluded, because of how they died, but the Dark One has not pity, has no mercy, will make the most of the tools he has. And most of the souls would have been left to torment until they were needed in the Last Battle. I don't know where the bodies came from, the Dark One's influence might have help grow them.

 

Of course Trollocs, Draghkar, Myrddraal are close enough in look to humans to think they required human souls. Since Darkhounds required wolf souls. Perhaps other Shadowspawn had other animal souls.

 

This is absolutely horrific, but I think that was how it was. (And I think Kari al'Thor, Verin Mathwin and Ingtar of House Shinowa found the Light)

[wotfan4472]

The souls for Shadowspawn is how Aginor made them initially in the AoL. They are reborn as human souls are, because he experimented on them. Only the Myrdraal and Grey Men don't fit, since Fades are born and Grey Men are volunteers. Perhaps the Grey Men are the Shadow equivalent of that idiot Gawyn was when he triggered the ring terangreal?

 

Bloody ashes. I may have justified his flaming existence in the books.

[jsbrads]

Or Birgitte

[wotfan4472]

Or the Forsaken are the Heroes of the Horn equivalent for the Dark One