Trollocs in the waste

[Sabio]

One thing that always got me is where did the shadowpsawn in book 4 come from.  We know they can't use a gateway and it's unlikely they came that far down from the blight undetected.  So I assume the ways or portal stones.  We know there were at least two portal stones in the waste, but was never explained where the second one was.  Problem with the ways is never heard there use to be a stedding around there.  It just bothered me because both times they attacked Rand it happened fast, which means they weren't just lingering nearby or else scouts would of seen them waiting till nightfall.  We know Asmo had a hand in it, but the how he got them there has always left me wondering.  So how did he get them there and how did he keep that many hidden?  Since they attacked in three spots, so they would of had to of followed Rand without being seen or placed in certain areas.

[Faroresdragn]

I dont think there was ever an instance of shadowspawn using portal stones to get around. You need to be able to channel to use portal stones, and with channelers like Rand barely able to understand how to use them (and he only learned through trial and error), the only people who could use them to transfer shadow spawn would be either someone of the Black Ajah who was instructed how to do it somehow, or possibly one of the forsaken who might know how to use them from the age of legends, so it could have been asmodean, but i dont know how he found time to get away and do that, not to mention at that point he was already shielded by Lanfear, and i doubt he would be able to channel enough to transport legions of shadowspawn. but i guess thats the only thing that makes sense.

 

The much better question to ask is how the hell those thousands of trollocs got into the Stone of Tear at the beginning of the book. Lanfear confirms that Sammael sent them if I remember right, but I dont remember if they explained how they got into the invincible fortress in huge numbers, espcially since they cant go through gateways. Was that ever explained?

[Sabio]

Samm sent some, and it was explained who sent the others to stop Samm's.  But I forgot which forsaken did it.  I remember Lan saying something about grain barges and a noble with wagons returning from the countryside.  He said something about no one bothering to ask why fully loaded grain barges were coming down the river.

 

Lanfear if I remember right said Asmo was behind the trollocs to distract Rand.  We know Lanfear knows how to use portal stones and sure Asmo could.  You have to remember he would of had plenty of time, during the travels since he started spending alot of time with the Shaido, so who can say how long he was actually over there.  Plus at night etc.  or who can say if he was there each day, since if no one saw him it would be assumed he was in the wagons.  What gets me is if they were portaled stone over that  there were attacks at three separate locations, and unlikely a portal stone would be near each place.  So that still alot of shadow spawn that is roaming about unnoticed.  That always seemed odd to me.

[wotfan4472]

Semirhage sent the Shadowspawn that opposed Sammael's attack. Sammael could have used a portal stone for his attack. I suspect Semirhage smuggled hers in by barge.

[Orderofolde]

The trollocs were smuggled in by grain barge left covered and untended at the dock which one of the DF high lords ordered.  After the attack Thom brings these points up as a means to undermine the peasants' support of the highlords and make them start to think for themselves.  Lanfear's came in the back of covered wagons that were supposed to be another high lord's baggage train from his estate.  Her trollocs attacked the others.

 

Those attacks in the Waste by the shadowspawn are a little suspect, as you have identified.  They cannot pass through gateways, and the scouts would have seen a force shadowing them.  That leaves the ways, which we know large numbers cannot pass without immediately drawing the black wind, or one of the forsaken using portal stones in the area.  Given that we see them used later, and that the forsaken know how to hide their ability as well as how to invert their weaves to avoid detection, this seems likely.  We do see that on their way back from the golden bowl that the one stand had been raided, and the defenders were all gone, so there is a plausibility that the trollocs were coming down out of the blight, however one of the forsaken had to be driving the fades to make them force the trollocs south into "the dying land."  As to the scouts, perhaps darkfriends among the Aiel were volunteering in droves to scout to hide the presence of a bunch of hungry trollocs.  We do know that the darkfriends in the group attacking probably arrived through gateway for the attacks.

[DemandredFO]

Some of the scouts could have been Darkfriends

[Faroresdragn]

Ok I get the problem now. not so much how they got there but how they stayed hidden. 

 

I think that trollocs and shadowspawn in general are just really good at keeping themselves off the radar and tracking, because as Im sure you remember from the second book, They managed to sneak up on Fal Dara, and completely infest the place for some time before anyone even noticed there were freaking trollocs everywhere. It just seems unlikely since he always describes them as snarling beasts, but they seem to be pretty stealthy, and the Fades seem to be actually pretty intelligent. There are a few other situations where them having this skill makes sense (in the two rivers in book 4 for one), so I think if they wanted to tail rands group at a distance until striking at night I think they could have done it.

 

It seems like a real stretch since most of that group were Aeil, who are badasses and love killing shadowspawn, but I think thats just what we have to accept IMO.

[Sabio]

Yes, sadly will never be an answer and we just have to accept it.  Just seems like a lot of Trollocs to hide especially when the Aiel should of been on guard for them after encountering the massacre.  Trollocs can move fast, but still seems like a lot for avoiding any notice.

 

Only time I can think of portal stones being used to bring in shadowspawn is later in the series when they attacked Perin and the whitecloaks.  Would be interesting to know how many Asmo could bring in at a time, we saw Rand at his limit going to Rhudiean,

[DemandredFO]

Yes but was Rand at his full and also he didn't really know what he was doing. Also, for the amount of ink expended to make the Foresaken look like idiots, we only every saw a fraction of what they could do. The first three books, I take as RJ figuring stuff out but the 4th book is probably down to Foresaken and Darkfriends

[Orderofolde]

Ok I get the problem now. not so much how they got there but how they stayed hidden. 

 

I think that trollocs and shadowspawn in general are just really good at keeping themselves off the radar and tracking, because as Im sure you remember from the second book, They managed to sneak up on Fal Dara, and completely infest the place for some time before anyone even noticed there were freaking trollocs everywhere. It just seems unlikely since he always describes them as snarling beasts, but they seem to be pretty stealthy, and the Fades seem to be actually pretty intelligent. There are a few other situations where them having this skill makes sense (in the two rivers in book 4 for one), so I think if they wanted to tail rands group at a distance until striking at night I think they could have done it.

 

It seems like a real stretch since most of that group were Aeil, who are badasses and love killing shadowspawn, but I think thats just what we have to accept IMO.

I agree, the attack on Fal Dara was suspect, but we have indications that darkfriends had tried to saw through the hinges of a dog gate.  One of the borderlanders mentions it, about how the masses tore them to pieces when they were discovered.  However, the Keep was inside the city, and Rand identified in The Great Hunt there was no way in unguarded when he tried to escape the keep.  So they had to infiltrate the city, and then the keep grounds, moat, and outer wall, then the keep itself.  Of course Fain was caught trying to scale the wall, so...I believe that it was a little convenient all the attacks where shadowspawn are suddenly there attacking.  I chalk it up to early book-isms where RJ hadn't solidified his gateway physics yet of constructs dying if they passed through.  It made for a good book series though, and there were believable attempts to legitimize their appearance.  Darkfriends were also everywhere so they had to let them into the keep.  It is just a long stretch to believe a heavily fortified city and a keep both could be breached that easily without an alarm raised. 

[dexterryu]

A few things to keep in mind:

 

1) The trolloc attacks before Rand and co re-discovered traveling/skimming so things took longer in terms of passage of time. It was easier to predict where/when Rand would be and plan / set traps accordingly. 

 

2) As Melindhra proved, there are Aiel darkfriends and they could have helped either guide or manipulate things to allow them to get them there and remain undetected

 

3) While they can't Travel, they do have 2 forsaken to use the power for other means of keeping them hidden.

 

4) The waste is a big, huge, mostly empty place. With a knowledgeable guide it might be fairly easy to get that far without being detected by avoiding populated areas.

[jsbrads]

Ingtar moved the guards away from the right places at the right time so Fal Dara could be attacked.

The waste didn't need that level of subterfuge as it was mostly empty.

A large number can be moved thru the ways so long as you are willing to be patient. And with so many Stedding in the dragon wall...

[Orderofolde]

I think it would have been easier to move them out of the blight to the north than from Ogier stedding, but it is possible.  It is also possible Sammael used the portal stone outside of Rhudian and the trollocs followed the Aiel from a distance, but perhaps more than one method was used as Rand and the Aiel came across the stand that had been raided by trollocs ahead of them.  So from waygates, as that was the method RJ used early on in the books, and some coming down from the north?  The Draghkar certainly came out of the north.

[Orderofolde]

I do recall how fast the shadowspawn caught up with Moiraine and Lan in Andor after leaving Baerlon, so possibly through some different waygates.  Iirc, Lan mentions that there were a thousand or more trollocs in the hunt for them and remarks on how they could have come to be and ponders how they could travel so far without a hue and cry raised from the borderlands on south.

 

Then we have Trollocs massing outside of Caemlyn when Lan and Moiraine arrive to rejoin Rand and Mat.  There was one of their POV's about how the trollocs were massing their numbers in the countryside and would enter the city once they had enough to fight their way in.  Interesting though is the waygate inside Caemlyn.  But we have speculation that the trollocs might not know all the ways yet.

 

I still think a combination of means were used.  Pillar stones, waygates, and for the darkfriends, gateways made by Sammael.