Moiraine and Travelling?

[Minnea]

As I'm currently rereading EotW again, I take notes. Now, I know there are many "strange" things in the first books that in later books is corrected, or explaned in another way. Today I found this, which is nothing to comment if I hadn't read the other ones...

 

In chapter 21 Moiraine says:

"there has not been an Aes Sedai powerful enough to Travel since the Time of Madness. Unless one of the Forsaken are loose there is still no one who can".

 

So - do Moiraine know the weave for Travelling? She seemed to know many things forgotten or forbidden (like Balefire) so shy not. But if she does, she is problably not strong enough to make it.

 

But when they DO learn the weave for Travel there are several AS who manage to weave it. Moiraine is wrong.

 

Ah - problably just something Moiraine belives to be true - that's why she can say it - but not necessarily really true, right?

[Albert]

I think your assumption is correct that she believes it to be true, but I'm pretty sure Moirine didn't know the weave for Travel, since if she knew, she would be able to make it if she just had tried. The weave for Balefire she kept secret because it was banned.

But then again, RJ didn't really have the One Power figured out in the tEotW. Lots of mentioning of people Traveling without gateways, Moiraine doing some very weird weave at the end to hold Againor etc. At first he may have meant to make it so to Travel you had to be pretty strong, by AoL standards, not Aes Sedai.

[Beowolf]

Oh, and don't capitalize "do" for emphasis. It normally stands for Dark One, just italicize or something next time. :D

[Beckon]

Moiraine is certainly strong enough to Travel if she knew the weave. She and Suiane and one or two others were the strongest living Aes Sedai before Egwene & Co. came along. She certainly would have used it instead of The Ways as well if she was able. It's just simply not known.

 

Balefire is different. It's known though it's not taught and it's forbidden to be used.

[icspots]

It's just Moiraine saying something that's false which she believes to be true. Aes Sedai know that in the AoL OP wielders were far stronger than those of the presence. They also know that they were able to do many more things which are now called "Lost Talents", Traveling among them. It's probably just like, "Aes Sedai used to be stronger and could Travel. Aes Sedai are now weaker and can't Travel. Decreased strength is why we can't Travel anymore." A+B=D.

 

Moiraine was also incorrect about strength in the OP in Men vs. Women. She told Egwene that men and women had been equal in the OP, and we later find out that Men are generally stronger. Like you said, it's not really the truth, but it's the truth as she sees it.

[Minnea]

Thanks, it's just as I thought then.

 

When iI'm now rereading I find many things that is later proven wrong - structures that are more delveloped and thoungt-out later in the serie.

[imrathill]

then again, Alvarin did travel so ofc Moirane could.

 

And i agree with the other ppl here that she didnt know much about traveling.

[Minnea]

I thought it was Mesaana who showed Alviarin how to Travel?

Do you mean Alviarin knew that by herself?

[Guest Barmacral]

I think imra means that Alvarin had the strenght to travel, and therefore Moiraine probably did too. And yes, Mesaana did teach Alvairin to travel.

[frozen Turkey]

I'd like to know how the Aes Sedai managed to lose an essential and utterly important weave such as travelling. I mean if the Aes Sedai and the White Tower managed to survive the breaking then surely the weave should have as well. It only takes one to remember the weave and teach it to others. It's as if every Aes Sedai who knew the weave simply vanished.

 

Also the Aes Sedai knew of the weave but never attempted to rediscover it. I find it extremely weird that they knew of it but never experimented weavings to develop it. I mean, thats how Nynaeve healed Stilling and Gentling, and that involves a person, which is much more dangerous.

[PrinceOfRavens]

I'd like to know how the Aes Sedai managed to lose an essential and utterly important weave such as travelling. I mean if the Aes Sedai and the White Tower managed to survive the breaking then surely the weave should have as well. It only takes one to remember the weave and teach it to others. It's as if every Aes Sedai who knew the weave simply vanished.

 

Also the Aes Sedai knew of the weave but never attempted to rediscover it. I find it extremely weird that they knew of it but never experimented weavings to develop it. I mean' date=' thats how Nynaeve healed Stilling and Gentling, and that involves a person, which is much more dangerous.[/quote']

 

Yes but playing and experimenting with the power isnt just fun and see what happens. They could blow up Tar Valon for all they know, most of the time new things are discoverd in ignorance.

[Luckers]

I'd like to know how the Aes Sedai managed to lose an essential and utterly important weave such as travelling. I mean if the Aes Sedai and the White Tower managed to survive the breaking then surely the weave should have as well. It only takes one to remember the weave and teach it to others. It's as if every Aes Sedai who knew the weave simply vanished.

 

Also the Aes Sedai knew of the weave but never attempted to rediscover it. I find it extremely weird that they knew of it but never experimented weavings to develop it. I mean, thats how Nynaeve healed Stilling and Gentling, and that involves a person, which is much more dangerous.

 

The Aes Sedai were not simply surviving the Breaking, they were actively hunting men who channel... and actively dying at the hands of those men, more often then not.

 

The fact is that we know that every Aes Sedai was killed (since none of them survived the breaking, and there SHOULD have been some, had simple age been an issue). They were gathering and training women who could channel as best they could under the circumstances, but that training would never be complete, and as each generation passed what was lost when the trainer died would have been more and more information.

[Beckon]

Strength in the power (or lack thereof) would have prevented them from remembering the weave. Asmodean is unable to teach Rand how to Travel because he does not have the strength to form the weave in spite of the fact that he knows how. At some point the last person with enough strength would die. Those remaining would recognize the weave if they saw it but would be unable to pass on the knowledge.

[Guest Barmacral]

Not true. Sorilea taught Cadsuane to travel even though she wasn't strong enough to do so.

[Luckers]

Indeed. I've always felt that Asmodean must have lied.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, Asmodean may ... may not have been lying. It may have to do with the difference in the way that men and women travel. Women's Travelling involves creating a "sameness" between the spot you're in and the spot you're going to. That seems to be a matter of dexterity first, strength second, so that the weaves can be made with very little strength, just not large enough to be truly useful. On the other hand, the male method is to bend the pattern and punch a hole through it. That seems to require strength first, and dexterity second, so that below a certain threshold of raw power, it simply cannot be done.

 

Alternatively, Asmodean may simply not have been as inventive as Sorilea, and didn't consider the possibility of passing on knowledge without the ability to make a full demonstration.

 

Don't get me wrong, I know Asmodean is fully capable of lying. It's just that he realized it was truly in his own self-interest to make Rand as powerful as he could. Out of self-interest, I think Asmodean would have showed it to him, if he thought he could have.

[Luckers]

Thats actually a fairly good point. I hadn't concidered it.

[Beckon]

Actually' date=' Asmodean may ... [i']may[/i] not have been lying. It may have to do with the difference in the way that men and women travel. Women's Travelling involves creating a "sameness" between the spot you're in and the spot you're going to. That seems to be a matter of dexterity first, strength second, so that the weaves can be made with very little strength, just not large enough to be truly useful. On the other hand, the male method is to bend the pattern and punch a hole through it. That seems to require strength first, and dexterity second, so that below a certain threshold of raw power, it simply cannot be done.

 

Alternatively, Asmodean may simply not have been as inventive as Sorilea, and didn't consider the possibility of passing on knowledge without the ability to make a full demonstration.

 

Don't get me wrong, I know Asmodean is fully capable of lying. It's just that he realized it was truly in his own self-interest to make Rand as powerful as he could. Out of self-interest, I think Asmodean would have showed it to him, if he thought he could have.

 

Rand has also discovered alot purely by accident. If Rand were to stumble upon Traveling (which he eventually does in Caemlyn while he's so focused on destroying Rhavin that he forgets to stifle LTT) and find it didn't take much power at all after Asmo told him he couldn't do it...that would make Asmo a sad panda.

[Telcar]

Aviendha though, she has to use much much more of the Power to create a gateway than the Aes Sedai, Avindha has to use almost as much power as she can hold. I don't remeber why though.

 

But all in all...it is startling how the Aes Sedai managed to forget so many things...it could be though that they just didn't want to pass on those things for personal gain. Like most Aes Sedai know a trick from before they came to the Tower or from when they were novices that no one (or a few others) know about which they usually take with them to the grave. A small example would be Moiraines eavesdropping trick, but there are many more out there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Aviendha though, she has to use much much more of the Power to create a gateway than the Aes Sedai, Avindha has to use almost as much power as she can hold.

 

Because she first made a gateway using a different weave, when she took Rand on their honeymoon to Seanchan. Since she can't remember how she made that one, using the other gateway weave she learned from Elayne causes her to suffer from second-learned weave limitation, which is the phenomenon that makes it harder for a channeler to use a weave that is almost, but not quite, like the weave they first use to do something. Its essentially a psychosomatic block.

[phlpr23]

Again, I agree with RAW. Aviendha forced herself to forget how she weaved her first gateway, and then when Elayne taught her to travel, it was a slightly different weave and she had trouble with it.