I think you have hit it on the head there. We all have different views of the characters and interpret them differently. Even Jordan's intentions don't set in stone how they are received. It is like Suian's uncle, who kept going back into the burning house to save the children. He was a hero when it mattered, but a lazy drunk when it didn't. Mat left to his own devices makes bad decisions. That doesn't make him a bad person, not at his core. Show Mat, even if he did steal the bracelet or prostitute himself or whatever, made a bad decision. But we never see him let his sisters down. When he meets the fade, he isn't running away but fighting to try to protect the girl, but he'll let Rand chop all the wood while he is warm and cozy. When it matters, he is there. Remember in the book, Mat repeatedly tries to get away from situations and out of danger but is defeated by his "luck" and being a ta'veren. To an extent, we see the best possible Mat as we see his heroism in saving the Wonder Girls, but being tied to the Dragon Reborn also stops him from drinking his life away and being like Suian's uncle. Imagine what being an addicted gambler would look like if you didn't always win. And this isn't to argue that your interpretation is "wrong", but to try and support why some people may see things differently, that doesn't rely on them being delusional or not true fans or whatever else. Mat is definitely a complex character and some people will emphasis different parts of it, and some people will judge him differently on his motives or on his actions.

@DigificWriter Was Moiraine given a learning block in the TV show?

Well i suppose if your view is as negative as it seems then TV Mat is somewhat accurate but for those of us that see Mat as honest, that has looked out for and protected his friends and put himself in harms way for the safety of the world then you can see how i would have a vastly different opinion.

Well you could cut out a lot of stuff and still get to the end of the story... But what would be the point ? It would no longer be the book series Jordan wrote , which has so enthralled all of us that we spend time on here nit picking about every tiny detail 🙂 Any long book - or series thereof - is likely to contain some fluff that might be done without : but opinions would differ as to which bits are best removed. I for one am happy to take it as it was written ... minor flaws and all...

precisely. honestly you'd think uber and those types would provide a service if your drunk and need a ride ya know? like a subscription or special tab or soemthing

Sure! I have a YouTube channel, Lucytowne Designs, and my Ravelry handle is Lydia C. Heckathorne. Lucytowne got started for a few reasons: I have my great-grandmother's diaries from the 1920s and then the 1950s to when she passed in 1995, and she was a major crafter. When she was first married during WWI making clothes by hand was normal for her generation, and I like to say she taught me posthumously how to knit, crochet, tat, and sew. I do love historybounding the Edwardian and 1920s eras as well. My Ravelry page has some of my designs that have been easy for me to write down. Fun fact, a friend who is an archaeologist professionally recently came across some textiles on a dig site they were working, and I ended up being able to really help them figure out what the remains could have been, what it was made from based on the context and the geographical location, and even the time period of patterns to look for based on the site context. I was very excited that I could help because that was precisely one of the reasons I started really learning how to work with fibers; so I could have that knowledge for archaeology sites and museum work. It's been useful in other ways as well. At a site I used to work at pre-Covid as an archaeologist we found quite a lot of black machine knitted material in what we *thought* was a post hole--only to have it end up being a cat burial! Whoops! Identifying a modern ritual burial of a cat was definitely not on the bingo card when I started the fiber arts, but there we are. And it's generally a really practical skill when you can hem pants too long for people barely 5 feet tall like me, sew on buttons, fix blown out seams, put in sleeve gussets because companies decided a weird cut was ok but it's really not, etc.

Welcome to Dragonmount!

Make the Aiel black. That is all.

@Mailman Pretty much every single person I named is a respected pillar of the WoT fandom (and four of them are directly involved with Dragonmount.com itself), and so by calling anybody who maintains that the characters in the TV series are absolutely recognizable vis a vis their book counterparts (which all of the named individuals have said is very much the case) 'borderline delusional', you are directly calling into question their credentials and credibility as WoT experts and fandom leaders, which is very much not a smart thing to do and which I was politely trying to dissuade you from doing. You don't have to like the TV series or the way its characters have been written, but there is a distinct difference between expressing negative opinions and calling into question the cognitive functions of any person who disagrees with you, which in this instance is a group that includes all of the individuals that I name-checked.

Me too! An Uber is not that expensive if you need one.

Sometimes you can't run, Rand. Perrin was suggesting something along the lines that Rand was already thinking, running away to keep everyone else safe, but also about how you cannot run from what is inside you. Mat had something similar with the dagger - that was entirely his fault - yet felt no sympathy and was talking about running from Rand to keep himself safe. In my opinion, Mat's character in the show is a good reconciliation of the the book character pre-healing (where Mat was the Gollum in the LOTR trope) and post-healing, where he is a completely different character, with different traits and abilities. Your denial that there was any change does lend support to your judgement of the show's adaptation, much less your claim that anyone that thinks differently is delusional. We see things differently, but this is not due to you liking or knowing the books better (especially not if you need to read a passage to remember what it said *joking*).

Just reread that passage where they find out and yes Perrin remains the calmer of the 2 which is completely within character but then he actually agrees with Mat that maybe Rand should run and hide. Mat is scared but handles it fairly well hardly like he started screaming for everyone to come and kill the channeler. Also remember at this point Perrin has his own issue that he is dealing with that he can't run from so it gives him a extra understanding of the situation.

The anecdote did not happen till later but did happen prior to his healing so it does have relevance considering your opinion of Mat pre healing. And as you view of Mat pre healing is incredibly low it does not fit. The badger was the day before the dance so it was not in fact interrupting the actual event. And I mean seriously its at worst slightly more than a childish prank. All the rest of it including him risking his life by travelling the ways to pit himself a 17 year old against the dark one and his minions happened in the first 2 books. How that can be in anyway claimed to be an accurate adaption between book and screen is just not a reasonable one.

That did not happen in the first books. The show could also add in a bunch of anecdotes later about Mat's younger adventures. Yes, the joke was to laugh at the kids who believed in ghost dogs. The badger was to upset a hugely important day for the girls. I don't see that as a fun joker, that everyone likes. It seems that is only for Mat's fun, not anyone else's. And Perron also went through what Mat did, but dealt with it a lot better regarding Rand. Could it be that we have both taken different things out of the books, building a head canon that is subtly different in some respects and very different in others? That could affect how we see the show? And no one needs to be delusional to have these varying thoughts and opinions?

You are talking about the Mat that literally risked his life twice to save a child from drowning despite being mocked for it for a year after the first time. That always kept his word. Men who can channel were feared incredibly and especially the Dragon and remember that Rand abused Perrin and Mat in an effort to drive them away from him. Also remeber that Moiraine had all Rands clothes changed to a lords clothing for her own reasons. so its hardly him putting on airs and graces for his own benefit. Vindictive jokes. Fairly harmless things like flouring dogs and letting a badger loose Book Mat also agrees to place himself at the eye of the world solely as a Ta'veren in order to save the world. And that is after Moiraine tells him she cannot force him to go. Are you really still calling him selfish Book Mat also looks out for and cares for Rand as they travel to Caemlyn. Book Mat that fought with the heroes of the horn to free Egwene. I would suggest that you maybe have a look at your opinion of Mat pre healing as he has quite a lot of heroic traits. I am more than happy to debate on the facts.

You were presenting your opinion as the truth, and when pointed to the fact that other fans disagree with you, you doubled down on your superfan status. You, as any kind of fan, are more than welcome to your opinions, just as any other kind of fan that wishes to discuss them. Branding people that disagree with as "borderline delusional" is hardly offering the respect that you appear to want for yourself to others. You did not like the series. That does not make those that did wrong, and it does not make your subjective views facts. You did not like the show interpretation of Mat, that is fine. But your argumentation is severely lacking, in my humble opinion, and entirely unconvincing to this person that has read the books multiple times. I think you are not adequately looking at the problems of book Mat's character pre healing, the issues of the books being written as stand alones instead of as a series, and i realise that many will not agree with me in those opinions.

Are you for real I was told I had better be careful because my views may not match superfans views. Maybe get a couple of monocles because you need them. I was simply pointing out that i am as much of a fan as those other mentioned

Wow, appeal to authority on this site. Surely you are the only person here that has read the books. More than once, you say? *lets monocle fall from shock* You are taking Mat's character after healing, not that from the early books. Book Mat as an adult played vindictive elaborate jokes on literal children to get his kicks. He cruelly laughs and snickers (even at times of great danger and stress) at those less fortunate, abandons Rand and bullies Perrin to do so as well because of his airs and graces and then totally drops him when he learns he can channel. Yes, Jordan pretends in the later books none of this happened, but I thought the show should try to be as accurate as possible? Book Mat is a total mess until we get his POV in Tar Valon after healing, when he suddenly remembers his heart of gold, his great skill with the quarterstaff, his addictions to gambling, tabak and wine, and his obsession with bosoms. In my humble opinion, which obviously is not worth as much as that of a superfan like you, the show has made a decent attempt at reconciling Mat into a consistent character. I don't think I would have made the choices they have made but I can see and appreciate what they were trying to do.

I'll only comment on this one as Mat is probably my favourite character. Mat would slack off and he would pull pranks in the books but he was not selfish. Remember the story that Nynaeve told of him rescuing the child in the river after making a fool of himself the year before and he was honest to a fault with characters often saying that if he gave his word then he would follow through no matter the cost to himself. TV Mat is a thief who abandons his friends with the fate of the world on the line. I am aware of the loss of the actor being an issue BUT we have to accept what the show gave us which is Mat abandoning his lifelong friends in the most dire of circumstances. That was the shows choice. Trying to claim that this character has been faithfully adapted from the book is nonsense.

Why? I doubt there are many people that have read the series as many times as I have so I would consider myself in the superfan category for absolute certain. Again I was incredibly excited when the show was announced I had been hoping for years for a TV or movie adaption of the books. Did Moiraine get a learning block in the TV show?

Nobody wants the kind of help you're offering. I could offer you pity, but I doubt you're in that market either. Mat was a selfish slacker with a heart of gold until he turned into Dagger Mat who was everybody's least-favorite character until he got a re-boot in Book 3. The show making him a shade darker in the beginning is absolutely in tune with the early books. Everyone knows he left his friends in the show because the actor left the cast unexpectedly, and they did what they could to tie that off, unsatisfactory as it is. Claiming disdain toward book fans is ludicrous. Perrin was a relentless mope in the books, I have no idea why anyone would see him as any different in the show. Yes, they had him kill his wife, which I wouldn't have done, but all we have in the books is this big guy who walks small because he was afraid of hurting people like he'd done when he was a kid? Make that make sense without an inner monologue. The fridging makes sense from an efficiency standpoint, if absolutely not for creativity. Sure, Moiraine showing more power and doling out more lore would have been great. The "Weep For Manetheren" scene should have been one of several similar if I had my druthers, but we know that Rafe had to fight like hell just to keep that in. She is obviously the prime mover of all their adventures in S1, so I don't know how one could say her intelligence and drive are in any way diminished. Lan is more than just a super soldier, and I'm glad to see a wider range in the show, which is apparent to his peers in the books anyway, it's just that Rand and his daddy issues is who Lan gets filtered through. Sure, book Lan would never have been surprised by Nynaeve outside Shadar Logoth (and he easily overpowered her there too, btw), and we've discussed the "tell" stupidity ad nauseum, it's part of the panicked rewrite after losing Mat's actor and all the covid restrictions. To fixate on minor details like those as fundamental character traits is a choice one can make, but is certainly not obligated to. I would have loved to see Thom be more of the Merlin from Disney's The Sword In The Stone that I imagined in the early books, but that was always incongruous with the character we got to know later in the books. A courtly outcast who moves among thieves and brutes with swagger is an excellent way to introduce him in the show. That's how I see it, for the record. You've made it clear you don't. Let's both take a page from DojoToad and seek to convince no further.

I'd be very careful calling diehard WoT fans like Thom DeSimone, Kathy Campbell, Rajiv Mote, Maureen Carr, KritterXD, Ta'varen Tavern, Winespring Cafe, LezbiNerdy, and MalkierTalks (to name but a few) 'borderline delusional'.

Well you can see the characters as the same but i think you are being boderline delusional and simply projecting the characters of the book onto the imitations on the screen. Mat is changed from a rogue into a full-on thief who abandons his friends by the end of the season. Perrin is turned into a married man who kills his wife and a relentless mope rather than the quiet thoughtful serious man he is in the books. Moiraine is unconscious for like half of the first 5 episodes and is stripped of her intelligence and drive that made her such a great character in the books. Lan is shown as inferior to a village wisdom in a combat situation and a tracker that is unable to spot a tell that he has had 20 years to recognize. Thom is a thief. There is loads more but I can't bring them all to mind at the moment but if you think those characters are the same as the books then I can't help you. Was Moiraine given a learning block in the TV show? I don't remember that.

which on the one hand good that they have a conscience but on the other come on people! ugh i hate drunk drivers.

ICYMI - Thom & Crystal have started speculating on what's in store for us in Season 3 in our show "Threads of the Pattern." The latest video is up today- it's all about Egwene and what lies ahead for her. 📺 Watch the full episode here: https://youtu.be/9u_gdEAi92I We’d love to hear your thoughts! What do you think the future holds for Egwene in Season 3?