A purpose for the Aiel

[Daemin]

Forgive me if this has been suggested before.

 

It was clear to me when I first read ToM what the solution to the Aiel problem is. As I see it, the situation (the Seanchan conquering everyone) is caused by the confluence of several things. There are two main ones, which are :

 

1. The Aiel are excluded from the peace.

2. There is no mechanism for enforcing the peace and punishing those who break it.

 

In addition, there are a few minors one, among them:

 

3. The Aiel only know war.

4. The Aiel only know how to get honor through fighting.

 

The solution should be painfully obvious: Make the Aiel in charge of enforcing the Dragon's peace.

 

This would also make sense of the Aiel's prophecy that the Car'a'carn would return them to their places of old/bring them glory. In the Age of Legends, the Aiel were sworn to peace. In the 4th age, they would enforce the peace others are sworn to. Thematically, it's pleasing as well, by restoring them to a place in the wider society closely related to that which they had in the second age. Finally, by tasking the Aiel with keeping the peace, it removes the foreseen path that causes the peace to be broken; rather than cast adrift with no purpose, the Aiel's honor would be bound up in ensuring the peace is kept.

[Trakand]

Seems, logical. I would be pleased if this would happen. The question is, Was Avie's viewing the future or one of many futures like the rings?

[Durinax]

I think another important part is to give the Aiel lands in the westlands, give them the vast unclaimed lands, and allow them to keep the waste, that way they will have more to be busy with

[Luckers]

I think another important part is to give the Aiel lands in the westlands, give them the vast unclaimed lands, and allow them to keep the waste, that way they will have more to be busy with

 

I suggested a while back that the oft repeated 'taking our place of old' 'prophecy' may be that the Aiel form permenant residence in the lands around Tar Valon, thereby forming a shield between Tar Valon and the rest of the world (especially the Seanchan) Thus, without going back to the Way of the Leaf (which I consider unlikely, and undesirable), or taking on a position of literal subservience, they will still come to provide a service for the Aes Sedai and perhaps regain a working relationship with the Tower (one hopefully based on mutual respect).

[Trakand]

That would compliment the pact between the wise ones and the tower and Egwene's WT

I think another important part is to give the Aiel lands in the westlands, give them the vast unclaimed lands, and allow them to keep the waste, that way they will have more to be busy with

 

I suggested a while back that the oft repeated 'taking our place of old' 'prophecy' may be that the Aiel form permenant residence in the lands around Tar Valon, thereby forming a shield between Tar Valon and the rest of the world (especially the Seanchan) Thus, without going back to the Way of the Leaf (which I consider unlikely, and undesirable), or taking on a position of literal subservience, they will still come to provide a service for the Aes Sedai and perhaps regain a working relationship with the Tower (one hopefully based on mutual respect).

[nolirion]

But how could they enforce the peace while having so many feud with the Seanchan ?

Even if the enforce the peace they could see it in reclaiming there wise one from the Seanchan , henceforth the war against the seanchan with disastrous consequence .

[Siswai_Dar]

that's a nice idea but there are a few problems: first of all, I don't see how the aiel could enforce the Dragon's peace if they go back to the way of the leaf? (I don't think people will take them seriously if they ask them not to break the peace and explain nicely why it's for their own good) not to mention that the aiel will probably be very reluctant to give up on their ways. secondly, the aiel- seanchan relationship will be problematic to say the least (considering the damane WO) but when it comes to battle even with the WO the seanchan are still superior- and according to avi's vision they seem to evolve technologically during the fourth age so I just don't see how the aiel could 'punish' the seanchan if they break the peace.

 

maybe rand will find a solution to that problem. it does seem like the best solution for the aiel

[Daemin]

I wasn't suggesting that they return to the way of the leaf. I'm suggesting that there is a similarity between being the ones that enforce an oath of peace, and being the ones with an oath of peace engraved in the bones.

 

I concur that the Wise Ones being held by Seanchan are a problem, but keep in mind that it was the combination of the Wise Ones and not being sworn to the peace and not having a purpose that lead the Aiel astray. Being the peace keepers directly addresses 2 of the 3 root causes. If Rand can force the Seanchan to give up the WO, or they do so for some other reasons, than that future is averted.

[Luckers]

I think one of Aviendha's tasks is to find a way to deal with the Seanchan without resorting to the dance of spears. Another option is Moiraine too--note that the Finns say that to win Rand much bind the land as one including the Seanchan held land, and that Min says of Moiraine that Rand would fail without her--two references (albeit negative ones) to what Rand needs to do in order to succeed, and Moiraine was the first to speak the prophecy of Rand binding the Nine Moons to serve him (which would fit RJ's sense of Foreshadow).

 

In any case, with the dream of a Seanchan woman handing Egwene BOTH a collar and a bracelt to an a'dam, I do not believe the damane will remain under the leash (though I doubt this will be resolved by the end of aMoL I do think it will be in the works).

 

Perhaps Aviendha's role will be to help the Aiel forgive the Blood Fued and work with or help the Seanchan rehabilitation, as opposed to punishing them for their sins.

[FanoLan]

Aiel as redarms for the wetlands, nice .... just adapt the Siswai'aman jewelry a bit and voila!

 

Rand has not yet bonded errr .... bound the Nine Moons to serve him. That interaction could easily include a negotiated release of the captured Wise Ones. Maybe the Seanchan will be forced to reassess their unification plan and agree to work with the Dragon Reborn to survive TG.

 

"Perhaps Aviendha's role will be to help the Aiel forgive the Blood Fued and work with or help the Seanchan rehabilitation, as opposed to punishing them for their sins." Great idea Luckers, this is a beautiful resolution if it goes that way.

 

As to the prohecy (?) regarding the Aiel and Aes Sedai, was that worded to require service or more along the lines of "IF we fail the AS again, we're toast?" To me, their integral role in the success/failure of the DR and the Light in TG was the gist of that prohecy (?), idk.

[Mario Cole]

They should embrace the remnant of a remnant concept and go for Operation Meatshield at Shayol Ghul.

[Luckers]

"Perhaps Aviendha's role will be to help the Aiel forgive the Blood Fued and work with or help the Seanchan rehabilitation, as opposed to punishing them for their sins." Great idea Luckers, this is a beautiful resolution if it goes that way.

 

 

Mmm. The interesting thing for me is that Seanchan honour and Aiel honour are not far different, and if any ideology was going to influence to Seanchan it would be the Aiel... I mean consider the concept of Toh, of duty and obligation, and the question if say Fortuona was to begin channeling (perhaps forced by someone else) but at the same time was needed to save the Empire from Tarmon Gai'don (which is concievable given what Semirhage did)? She has an incontrovertable sense of duty, but what happens when there are conflicting duties? She is capable, I believe, of seeing herself leashed or killed to protect the Empire, but what happens if the question exists in reverse? Maintaining her own freedom, against her beliefs, for the sake of the Empire?

 

That's precisely the sort of place where the Aiel concept of Toh would be influential. It reminds me of when Amys lied to Egwene and changes for a moment to the cadin'sor and makes the 'I have Toh' gesture.

[FanoLan]

 

That's precisely the sort of place where the Aiel concept of Toh would be influential. It reminds me of when Amys lied to Egwene and changes for a moment to the cadin'sor and makes the 'I have Toh' gesture.

 

Interesting thoughts. Definitely agree with the Aiel/Seanchan similarities, or maybe analogues would fit better. The forced "punishments" strewn through Seanchan culture compared to Aiel willingness to accept punishment illuminates the difference to me. Gaishain vs. da'co'vale; damane vs. the da'tsang period of Aiel Wise One apprenticeship. Not too diffficult to see Fortuona realizing the greater degree of honor inherent in the Aiel way, she has already pondered the curiosness of Mat's complete dedication to the oaths he willingly gives versus the forced Seanchan oaths.

 

Learning that Setalle could (or perhaps can again) channel would likely play a role in this growth as well. At least the conversations and growing respect Fortuona has already recognized would make it more likely for her to consider the words of a marath'damane. Has to be healing weaves for Mat that brings Fortuona to actually cross the line and channel and then comes her crisis of honor -- to be leashed or not to be leashed, that IS the question ; )

[Luckers]

 

That's precisely the sort of place where the Aiel concept of Toh would be influential. It reminds me of when Amys lied to Egwene and changes for a moment to the cadin'sor and makes the 'I have Toh' gesture.

 

Interesting thoughts. Definitely agree with the Aiel/Seanchan similarities, or maybe analogues would fit better. The forced "punishments" strewn through Seanchan culture compared to Aiel willingness to accept punishment illuminates the difference to me. Gaishain vs. da'co'vale; damane vs. the da'tsang period of Aiel Wise One apprenticeship. Not too diffficult to see Fortuona realizing the greater degree of honor inherent in the Aiel way, she has already pondered the curiosness of Mat's complete dedication to the oaths he willingly gives versus the forced Seanchan oaths.

 

Learning that Setalle could (or perhaps can again) channel would likely play a role in this growth as well. At least the conversations and growing respect Fortuona has already recognized would make it more likely for her to consider the words of a marath'damane. Has to be healing weaves for Mat that brings Fortuona to actually cross the line and channel and then comes her crisis of honor -- to be leashed or not to be leashed, that IS the question ; )

 

I've suggested in the past that the reason Verin went to the Two Rivers may have been because it represented the only known surplus of unsparked learners for her to study. We know that she took note of the Seanchan, and we know that she locked in on the a'dam and the whole sul'dam damane system is the greatest danger. We also know she began preparing a book on the Seanchan much the same as she did the Black Ajah. It may well be that she set in motions plans that will see Fortuona forcibly sparked (I asked Brandon if that were possible and he replied that 'almost anything is possible under the right circumstances).

[Clouded]

I like the idea of the Aiel becoming Peacekeepers. If it does end up being true, I'll laugh. Not out of incredulity, but becauseRJ placed a nice hint at it in TSR.

 

Rhuarc declares peace on the Stone after the Trolloc attack. Faile and Berelain start fighting about Perrin, and Rhuarc quite easily handles the situation. He exacts good punishments, and they both learn there lesson quickly.

[FanoLan]

 

That's precisely the sort of place where the Aiel concept of Toh would be influential. It reminds me of when Amys lied to Egwene and changes for a moment to the cadin'sor and makes the 'I have Toh' gesture.

 

Interesting thoughts. Definitely agree with the Aiel/Seanchan similarities, or maybe analogues would fit better. The forced "punishments" strewn through Seanchan culture compared to Aiel willingness to accept punishment illuminates the difference to me. Gaishain vs. da'co'vale; damane vs. the da'tsang period of Aiel Wise One apprenticeship. Not too diffficult to see Fortuona realizing the greater degree of honor inherent in the Aiel way, she has already pondered the curiosness of Mat's complete dedication to the oaths he willingly gives versus the forced Seanchan oaths.

 

Learning that Setalle could (or perhaps can again) channel would likely play a role in this growth as well. At least the conversations and growing respect Fortuona has already recognized would make it more likely for her to consider the words of a marath'damane. Has to be healing weaves for Mat that brings Fortuona to actually cross the line and channel and then comes her crisis of honor -- to be leashed or not to be leashed, that IS the question ; )

 

I've suggested in the past that the reason Verin went to the Two Rivers may have been because it represented the only known surplus of unsparked learners for her to study. We know that she took note of the Seanchan, and we know that she locked in on the a'dam and the whole sul'dam damane system is the greatest danger. We also know she began preparing a book on the Seanchan much the same as she did the Black Ajah. It may well be that she set in motions plans that will see Fortuona forcibly sparked (I asked Brandon if that were possible and he replied that 'almost anything is possible under the right circumstances).

 

Must have missed the discussion re: Verin's trip to the Two Rivers, interesting, verrry interesting. I try to avoid any Brandon quotes pertaining to as yet to be released material, but that is a thought worth considering. Forced sparking. Maybe the first weaves by the sul'dam were a little foreshadowing on this .... the sparks weave around the Aes Sedai.....hmmmm.

 

So I assume you mean another of Verin's helpful letters when referring to plans in motion ... one of those we've seen in someone's hand or another from her collection? Or is that an open possibility, something we have not been brought into the loop on in any way?

[jsbrads]

Major detail overlooked, if seachan decide to attack the Aiel can't stop them.

 

I do like the idea of Aiel reurning to way of leaf. I am not sure the motivations of people who don't want that. The context of my motivation is my religion, I am a religous person, way of leaf was their religion, they should return to observing it. (I don't believe in way of leaf) Additionally, the last AS for AoL told them to keep Way of Leaf even if they drop all else, and I trust AoL AS, they know what the heck they was about.

[Durinax]

 

I do like the idea of Aiel reurning to way of leaf. I am not sure the motivations of people who don't want that.

my motivation is that them returning to the way of the leaf, is that I would hate it if they all gave up the history that they forged in the waste, it would be a major letdown for me

[Luckers]

 

That's precisely the sort of place where the Aiel concept of Toh would be influential. It reminds me of when Amys lied to Egwene and changes for a moment to the cadin'sor and makes the 'I have Toh' gesture.

 

Interesting thoughts. Definitely agree with the Aiel/Seanchan similarities, or maybe analogues would fit better. The forced "punishments" strewn through Seanchan culture compared to Aiel willingness to accept punishment illuminates the difference to me. Gaishain vs. da'co'vale; damane vs. the da'tsang period of Aiel Wise One apprenticeship. Not too diffficult to see Fortuona realizing the greater degree of honor inherent in the Aiel way, she has already pondered the curiosness of Mat's complete dedication to the oaths he willingly gives versus the forced Seanchan oaths.

 

Learning that Setalle could (or perhaps can again) channel would likely play a role in this growth as well. At least the conversations and growing respect Fortuona has already recognized would make it more likely for her to consider the words of a marath'damane. Has to be healing weaves for Mat that brings Fortuona to actually cross the line and channel and then comes her crisis of honor -- to be leashed or not to be leashed, that IS the question ; )

 

I've suggested in the past that the reason Verin went to the Two Rivers may have been because it represented the only known surplus of unsparked learners for her to study. We know that she took note of the Seanchan, and we know that she locked in on the a'dam and the whole sul'dam damane system is the greatest danger. We also know she began preparing a book on the Seanchan much the same as she did the Black Ajah. It may well be that she set in motions plans that will see Fortuona forcibly sparked (I asked Brandon if that were possible and he replied that 'almost anything is possible under the right circumstances).

 

Must have missed the discussion re: Verin's trip to the Two Rivers, interesting, verrry interesting. I try to avoid any Brandon quotes pertaining to as yet to be released material, but that is a thought worth considering. Forced sparking. Maybe the first weaves by the sul'dam were a little foreshadowing on this .... the sparks weave around the Aes Sedai.....hmmmm.

 

So I assume you mean another of Verin's helpful letters when referring to plans in motion ... one of those we've seen in someone's hand or another from her collection? Or is that an open possibility, something we have not been brought into the loop on in any way?

 

Well she wrote a whole book, so I think more along the lines of what she gave Egwene than just a letter, if this is the case.

 

Major detail overlooked, if seachan decide to attack the Aiel can't stop them.

 

I do like the idea of Aiel reurning to way of leaf. I am not sure the motivations of people who don't want that. The context of my motivation is my religion, I am a religous person, way of leaf was their religion, they should return to observing it. (I don't believe in way of leaf) Additionally, the last AS for AoL told them to keep Way of Leaf even if they drop all else, and I trust AoL AS, they know what the heck they was about.

 

The Way of the Leaf is more of a philosophy than a Religion. That being said I don't think just because they once lived by it that they should automatically return to observing it--I don't even believe that of actual religions. If it were to suit them ideologically, maybe, but I don't see that in the Aiel--they've grown too far beyond it, and the Way of the Leaf has certain blind spots that conventional Aiel wisdom knows of and is no longer compatable with.

 

In effect I don't believe reverting to their form ideology could ever be the answer. It's too artificial. Their current ideology needs to grow, and that is not condusive with a reversion to the Way.

[jsbrads]

I do like the idea of Aiel reurning to way of leaf. I am not sure the motivations of people who don't want that.

my motivation is that them returning to the way of the leaf, is that I would hate it if they all gave up the history that they forged in the waste, it would be a major letdown for me

 

I and the Aiel have no desire to keep that history. Nakomi's arguement was very persuasive, they lived in 3-fold land to meet Toh, to continue to exhalt their history/punishment would be foolish and counter Ji'e'toh.

 

Luckers: Aiel have always lived a structured life under Ji'e'toh, I am not talking about adopting way of leaf before last battle, but a some point in the near future, in a civilized society, it worked in AoL. also, I think Ji'e'toh had the way of the leaf built in on purpose, particularly gaishan and lesser so blacksmiths... so it is not so alien.

[Durinax]

I do like the idea of Aiel reurning to way of leaf. I am not sure the motivations of people who don't want that.

my motivation is that them returning to the way of the leaf, is that I would hate it if they all gave up the history that they forged in the waste, it would be a major letdown for me

 

I and the Aiel have no desire to keep that history. Nakomi's arguement was very persuasive, they lived in 3-fold land to meet Toh, to continue to exhalt their history/punishment would be foolish and counter Ji'e'toh.

 

 

Luckers: Aiel have always lived a structured life under Ji'e'toh, I am not talking about adopting way of leaf before last battle, but a some point in the near future, in a civilized society, it worked in AoL. also, I think Ji'e'toh had the way of the leaf built in on purpose, particularly gaishan and lesser so blacksmiths... so it is not so alien.

I dont know how you figure you can speak on behalf of the Aiel, all I have seen is that they do intend to keep their ways.

 

as for the rest while it is incorporated as part of their culture, it is a negative thing, blacksmiths are only because of their social value, the rest is for being a lesser warrior (who got tagged) so it helps them to work harder at being a warrior.

[FanoLan]

I do like the idea of Aiel reurning to way of leaf. I am not sure the motivations of people who don't want that.

my motivation is that them returning to the way of the leaf, is that I would hate it if they all gave up the history that they forged in the waste, it would be a major letdown for me

 

I and the Aiel have no desire to keep that history. Nakomi's arguement was very persuasive, they lived in 3-fold land to meet Toh, to continue to exhalt their history/punishment would be foolish and counter Ji'e'toh.

 

 

Luckers: Aiel have always lived a structured life under Ji'e'toh, I am not talking about adopting way of leaf before last battle, but a some point in the near future, in a civilized society, it worked in AoL. also, I think Ji'e'toh had the way of the leaf built in on purpose, particularly gaishan and lesser so blacksmiths... so it is not so alien.

I dont know how you figure you can speak on behalf of the Aiel, all I have seen is that they do intend to keep their ways.

 

as for the rest while it is incorporated as part of their culture, it is a negative thing, blacksmiths are only because of their social value, the rest is for being a lesser warrior (who got tagged) so it helps them to work harder at being a warrior.

 

Amys, Melaine, Bair and Rhuarc all explicitly comment on the coming change and essentially riding it out the best they can. Coming accross the Dragonwall in and of itself is so outside the Aiel ways they are already beyond returning to their old frame of reference. Mention is made of Aviendha serving as a bridge between cultures (Aiel and wetlanders) and that purpose being nearly as important as binding Rand to the Aiel.

 

Seems like you may have missed the importance of Aviendha's recognition that the willing acceptance of punishment (gai'shan for a year and a day) reflects honor, not that acceptance of punishment is a negative thing.

[jsbrads]

While I am being punished, I can't hide from the things I have done, and by accepting that punishment, I show my honor, but the moment the punishment is over... don't remind me of my past failings or punishments. Once the punishment is over, reminding someone of how honorable they behaved when they were bawling on the floor being spanked, is not appropriate.

The last 2800+ years was just that, a punishment for failing, that is how they see it. the last 2800 years was not a glorious history, in which the Aiel people, rose to the status of a powerful nation that they want express. It was also millenia of barbarism, brutality and harshness.

The Aiel, by there own admission, want no one to look back on their punishment, their history is that collosal punishment.

[muddasssir]

wow JS this is seriously neat you have very neatly expressed the paradox that Aiel are trapped in. Honestly i do not s a way for them out of this trap. Sometime back there was a thread discussing something similar. My point is that there is not enough time or space in the final book to resolve it one way or other.

[FanoLan]

While I am being punished, I can't hide from the things I have done, and by accepting that punishment, I show my honor, but the moment the punishment is over... don't remind me of my past failings or punishments. Once the punishment is over, reminding someone of how honorable they behaved when they were bawling on the floor being spanked, is not appropriate.

The last 2800+ years was just that, a punishment for failing, that is how they see it. the last 2800 years was not a glorious history, in which the Aiel people, rose to the status of a powerful nation that they want express. It was also millenia of barbarism, brutality and harshness.

The Aiel, by there own admission, want no one to look back on their punishment, their history is that collosal punishment.

 

Well, Aiel do refer to the Waste as the three-fold land so the punishment is not the only thing there. Modern Aiel, far removed from their historical beginnings, have not been engaged in useless toiling merely for the punishment itself. The Waste also served as a testing ground and a shaping stone. Fulfilling their destiny/duty in aiding the Dragon Reborn will only provide the next step in their cultural evolution and change will continue for them thereafter.

 

It's hard for me to imagine modern Aiel returning to their Dai'shan roots and collectively pretending the intervening three millenia never happened.