What was Aran'gar up to?

[LazyMonk]

What exactly did Aran'gar accomplish (or thought to accomplish) in the AS camp except giving Egwene headaches and clouding her dreams?

She could have, with care, used compulsion on the entire camp and parade them into the Erinin like lemmings. But she does... suspiciously close to nothing.

[yoniy0]

What exactly did Aran'gar accomplish (or thought to accomplish) in the AS camp except giving Egwene headaches and clouding her dreams?

Actually, what Egwene did there was exactly the prize the FS had their eyes on. A Tower divided in internal warfare that didn't seem to ever end (if Egwene wasn't taken hostage, and then did so well, it wouldn't have).

 

Consider the alternative - some Blues get slapped on the wrist and a reforged Tower. True, Mesaana did good (or rather, evil) work inside the Tower, but that's no reason to just let the rebellion end, is it?

[LazyMonk]

Actually, what Egwene did there was exactly the prize the FS had their eyes on. A Tower divided in internal warfare that didn't seem to ever end (if Egwene wasn't taken hostage, and then did so well, it wouldn't have).

 

Consider the alternative - some Blues get slapped on the wrist and a reforged Tower. True, Mesaana did good (or rather, evil) work inside the Tower, but that's no reason to just let the rebellion end, is it?

The siege was the most probable outcome regardless of Aran'gar's influence. Indeed, if events are proceeding according to the FS plan (chaos and dissension) then all She does is keeping tabs. But when the FS meet, a self-satisfied Aran'gar proclaims she has Egwene "under her thumb" (a beautiful example of "making the truth dance a merry jig") which is hardly the case.

[FarShainMael]

Whatever she was doing, she didn't finish it, because she 'lost control' of Egwene (ToM Prologue).

[Never]

Actually, what Egwene did there was exactly the prize the FS had their eyes on. A Tower divided in internal warfare that didn't seem to ever end (if Egwene wasn't taken hostage, and then did so well, it wouldn't have).

 

Consider the alternative - some Blues get slapped on the wrist and a reforged Tower. True, Mesaana did good (or rather, evil) work inside the Tower, but that's no reason to just let the rebellion end, is it?

The siege was the most probable outcome regardless of Aran'gar's influence. Indeed, if events are proceeding according to the FS plan (chaos and dissension) then all She does is keeping tabs. But when the FS meet, a self-satisfied Aran'gar proclaims she has Egwene "under her thumb" (a beautiful example of "making the truth dance a merry jig") which is hardly the case.

 

 

But imagine what Aran'gar could have achieved, working slowly, were it not for the Asha'man that came to the rebel AS camp.

[yoniy0]

I disagree. Egwene was the only one interested in having events escalate that far. She's capable, but her following wasn't such that her wishes were the most probable outcome. If it weren't for the Law of War, it wouldn't have happened.

[LazyMonk]

I disagree. Egwene was the only one interested in having events escalate that far. She's capable, but her following wasn't such that her wishes were the most probable outcome. If it weren't for the Law of War, it wouldn't have happened.

Sure without Egwene and Siuan the rebels would have stayed in Salidar much longer, but that's entirely besides the point.

Aran'gar arrived after long after Egwene -- she had no part in the original planning, and her minor aid in favor of actively opposing the Elaida sums up in a single vote in the hall.

[mackoY-kun]

Besides, it was becoming more and more common knowledge that the forsaken are loose. And using compulsion will dull the wits of the victim, which will be obvious to so many Aes Sedai. Then there's the explanation that a strong will will break free of compulsion. ie Morgase.

[dwn]

Delana, as Aran'gar's proxy in the SAS Hall, was a key figure in keeping things deadlocked--look how she reacted when Egwene pulled her Law of War coup, or when Egwene authorized negotiations with the Tower. Both times her intent was to keep the power struggle going, and both times she knew she'd be punished for botching it. Siuan or Egwene even note her erratic voting record at one point. The Shadow's goal was clearly to keep the Tower as divided as possible.

 

It's worth noting that Egwene's headaches started after she got the SAS moving toward Tar Valon. Egwene had started to show a bit of a backbone, and Sheriam proved unable to control her, so Aran'gar took a more direct approach. The purpose of the headaches was likely twofold: keep Egwene from functioning properly, and allow Aran'gar to get close enough to influence her and interfere with her dreaming. Egwene was getting things rolling in Salidar and the Shadow didn't want that.

 

I have the feeling that both the Aran'gar plot and the BA hunter arc were cut short due to length. Neither situation ended in anything so profound to justify the build up, but a satisfying conclusion would have resulted in a whole extra book rather than the few chapters in CoT, KoD and TGS.

 

-- dwn

[csarmi]

It is likely that Aran'gar believed she was in control of events there. Just as Romanda or Lelaine did.

[FanoLan]

Delana, as Aran'gar's proxy in the SAS Hall, was a key figure in keeping things deadlocked--look how she reacted when Egwene pulled her Law of War coup, or when Egwene authorized negotiations with the Tower. Both times her intent was to keep the power struggle going, and both times she knew she'd be punished for botching it. Siuan or Egwene even note her erratic voting record at one point. The Shadow's goal was clearly to keep the Tower as divided as possible.

 

It's worth noting that Egwene's headaches started after she got the SAS moving toward Tar Valon. Egwene had started to show a bit of a backbone, and Sheriam proved unable to control her, so Aran'gar took a more direct approach. The purpose of the headaches was likely twofold: keep Egwene from functioning properly, and allow Aran'gar to get close enough to influence her and interfere with her dreaming. Egwene was getting things rolling in Salidar and the Shadow didn't want that.

 

I have the feeling that both the Aran'gar plot and the BA hunter arc were cut short due to length. Neither situation ended in anything so profound to justify the build up, but a satisfying conclusion would have resulted in a whole extra book rather than the few chapters in CoT, KoD and TGS.

 

-- dwn

 

Just wanted to point out the insight we gained from the BA Hunters' various perspectives during Egwene's imprisonment. Without their prior introduction and development, the cries of "Deus ex" would have resounded through WoT land when the WT united. The BA Hunters' role in the plot exceeded the particularly interesting task they assumed, IMO. I also was expecting more to result from their literal hunt but thoroughly appreciate the ultimate (and yet to be completed - Pevara) roles the members of that group filled. Consider Saerin's role in the WT, not only regarding Egwene's triumph or the BA hunt.

 

Completely agreed re: the success of Sheriam/Moria/Delana then Aran'gar in maintaining the WT split, IMO the most damaging strike possible by the DO other than turning Rand. Also, it seems folks generally under-appreciate the value of Aran'gar's interfering with, or perhaps even directing Egwene's dreams. There's no limit on the potential of Egwene's Talent to damage the DO's plans. Aran'gar, at the least, completely suffocated that ability during a crucial period in WoT land. Even worse, the dark dreams Egwene cannot remember the details of but left her with the feelings of them, may prove to have lasting effects. Either way, effective and necessary use of one of the DO's bishops as I see it.

[FarShainMael]

Besides, it was becoming more and more common knowledge that the forsaken are loose. And using compulsion will dull the wits of the victim, which will be obvious to so many Aes Sedai. Then there's the explanation that a strong will will break free of compulsion. ie Morgase.

 

The headaches would have provided an overt reason for any slow-wittedness on the part of a Compelled person (have you ever tried to function with a severe migraine?) and would have weakened the will to boot.

[randsc]

He/she had goddamn better have been laying some Compulsion on Egwene. If not, the pathetic performance of the Foresaken in this series will have reached a new low, and IMO, reached the point where the series as a whole will really suffer as a result. The Foresaken have thus far been disappointing to say the least; if one of them missed such an obvious and even easy opportunity to actually impact events, then they are beyond disappointing.

 

A great epic fantasy requires dramatic tension, which cannot exist if the opposition is too stupid to tie its' own shoes.

[Guest PiotrekS]

He/she had goddamn better have been laying some Compulsion on Egwene. If not, the pathetic performance of the Foresaken in this series will have reached a new low, and IMO, reached the point where the series as a whole will really suffer as a result. The Foresaken have thus far been disappointing to say the least; if one of them missed such an obvious and even easy opportunity to actually impact events, then they are beyond disappointing.

 

A great epic fantasy requires dramatic tension, which cannot exist if the opposition is too stupid to tie its' own shoes.

 

Sadly, it's very true.

[Xcorpyo001]

He/she had goddamn better have been laying some Compulsion on Egwene. If not, the pathetic performance of the Foresaken in this series will have reached a new low, and IMO, reached the point where the series as a whole will really suffer as a result. The Foresaken have thus far been disappointing to say the least; if one of them missed such an obvious and even easy opportunity to actually impact events, then they are beyond disappointing.

 

A great epic fantasy requires dramatic tension, which cannot exist if the opposition is too stupid to tie its' own shoes.

 

 

Actually, I have a +1 for Asmodean.

The guy painted two dragons on Couladin, just to keep Rand busy for a couple of days while he went to Rhuidean to steal the access key, and that act had major repercussions for the entire series. The other Forsaken should take lessons from the guy...Rand surely did.

 

And yes, Halima probably used Compulsion with saidin, or so I desperately hope so. It will explain some of Egwene's decisions/actions(or lack of) since she left Salidar(especially the ones I do not like and made my reconsider my Top 5 characters since the last 2 books).

[FarShainMael]

I'm convinced she (he?) Compelled Egwene. Look at Eg's attitude to the Pattern in ToM14, when in her thoughts she berates Nynaeve for not being 'levelheaded' enough to avoid getting caught up in the Pattern as it bends around Rand's ta'veren nature!

[JeffWeissberg]

well at what point is Aran'gar dead in the timeline? wouldn't any Compulsion be removed upon her death?

[Xcorpyo001]

well at what point is Aran'gar dead in the timeline? wouldn't any Compulsion be removed upon her death?

 

 

Damn, totally forgot about that.

At least she died later in the series, so she could still account for some of her decisions. Unfortunately, not the ones I was hoping for, those came later :((

[randsc]

Aran'gar died at Natrin's Barrow. But that doesn't mean that Egwene is not under linger compulsion. There are forms of compulsion that can survive the weaver's death; the weave that forcibly passes the Warder bond being one obvious example.

[FarShainMael]

Only compulsion she'd applied within a day or so of being balefired. Her efforts with Egwene (whatever they were) happened very much earlier. There are limits on just how far a thread can be burned back, no matter how strong the balefire is, and it's been discussed a lot elsewhere. I'll see if I can find a relevant post.

 

I may be some time..

[yoniy0]

well at what point is Aran'gar dead in the timeline? wouldn't any Compulsion be removed upon her death?

Definitely not, unless it was something like 'oppose Rand just as long as I'm at your side, then go on with your life'. Rand's BF might've been strong enough to erase a month, but more likely a week or so. Either way, the damage was already done.

[Xcorpyo001]

Only compulsion she'd applied within a day or so of being balefired. Her efforts with Egwene (whatever they were) happened very much earlier. There are limits on just how far a thread can be burned back, no matter how strong the balefire is, and it's been discussed a lot elsewhere. I'll see if I can find a relevant post.

 

I may be some time..

 

 

Oh, thank you very much. You are a life saver.

Ahhh, the hope has been rekindled.

[JeffWeissberg]

oops, i was under the impression that Compulsion died with the weaver, wasn't specifically thinking about the BF part of it.

 

I think Ishy laid down some kind of Compulsion on Carridin that triggered when he saw Mat in Ebou Dar.

 

I still doubt Eg is under any kind of Compulsion, unless it was maybe the kind that just helped encourage her down the path she was already heading...

[jwood01]

I really hope that Aran'Gar had more of a point than to slow the reunification of the WT. i desperately hope that there is a bomb of compulsion on Egwene's brain that will make the FoM much more interesting in aMoL,

[Xcorpyo001]

oops, i was under the impression that Compulsion died with the weaver, wasn't specifically thinking about the BF part of it.

 

I think Ishy laid down some kind of Compulsion on Carridin that triggered when he saw Mat in Ebou Dar.

 

I still doubt Eg is under any kind of Compulsion, unless it was maybe the kind that just helped encourage her down the path she was already heading...

 

 

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"...or something like that.

Trying to be a good Amyrlin is a good thing. Trying to be a perfect Amyrlin, without caring how you get there is meah.

Let's not forget that Lanfear created the Bore because she wanted a more powerful source of OP, in this case the TP. This was a good think for the AS, or so she thought.