Light Vs Dark - A Draw?

[UncleButcher1980]

Ok, I couldn't think of a good title and this may be better asked in the ask a simple question thread, but I was thinking of Robert Jordan's statement that in previous turnings of the Wheel the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, and when this happened the result was a draw. I'm trying to get my feeble brain around that. If the Light loses their Champion, how do they get away with a draw?

 

Please humour (and enlighten) me.

[hjustinpace]

In universe, the characters can't seem to agree whether this has happened (Ish claims it has, Rand denies it, etc.). It also seemed sort of odd to me that it would never have happened, considering the sample size is essentially infinity. Which, if you buy the Dark One winning resulting in the Wheel being broken, yada yada yada, then it seems inevitable. It's going to happen sooner or later. But:

 

1) Who says the Champion of the Light necessarily turns the tide? Rand is ultra-powerful, but he's still mortal.

 

2) More importantly, I don't think the Dark One truly can win, at least not in the sense of breaking the Wheel. The relationship between the Creator and the Dark One seems to fit inside the basic Judeo-Christian conception of an omnipotent God that tolerates the rebellion of Satan. In Jordan's world, the Dark One can cause lots (LOTS) of trouble, but that doesn't mean victory is a viable option. The Creator can't even be bothered to do anything other than sit this one (and every one) out.

 

I'm not sure if Jordan has spoken to this more directly--there is no way of knowing any of this for a certainty from the books because none of the POV characters can know it for a certainty, being neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ok, I couldn't think of a good title and this may be better asked in the ask a simple question thread, but I was thinking of Robert Jordan's statement that in previous turnings of the Wheel the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, and when this happened the result was a draw. I'm trying to get my feeble brain around that. If the Light loses their Champion, how do they get away with a draw?

 

Please humour (and enlighten) me.

 

This has always bothered me too. It doesn't really make much sense to me. There seems to be only three potential outcomes: 1) The Champion of the Light wins, 2) The Champion of the Light loses. 3) The Champion of the Light turns to the shadow.

 

Now, in scenario 1 it is a win for the Light. Or depending on how you look at it...it's a draw since the DO is sealed and everything will repeat itself in the future. In scenario 2, we don't know what will happen really. But in scenario 3, RJ has stated that it ends in a draw. This seems fair, but the problem is that in the books we see that the Shadow clearly values turning the Dragon to their side far more than simply killing him. They have had plenty of opportunities to kill him, yet the Forsaken have helped him or purposely avoided killing him throughout the entire series.

 

Using the logic presented in the book, it seems obvious that turning the Champion of the Light to shadow is better than simply killing him. Yet, RJ's comments seem to imply that turning him to the shadow doesn't result in a win either. So the question is....how can the Shadow win if turning the Dragon doesn't let them win? If the Dark One simply has to break free and win the Last Battle to win then why didn't they kill Rand long ago? Why bother turning him? It really doesn't make sense at this point. Furthermore, it also doesn't make sense how throughout the series the Shadow has attempted to kill Rand plenty of times yet other times they are under orders not to harm him. As if they constantly just keep changing their minds. Even Ishamael tries to kill Rand with balefire at the end of TDR.

 

So the big question is...how can the Shadow win? If turning Rand is valued more than killing him then logic states that merely killing him will not allow the DO to win. Yet if turning Rand doesn't allow them to win either...it seems like a no win situation. And I really don't buy the whole "neither side can ever win" theory because if that is the case then the entire series of books is near meaningless. There is obviously some way for either side to win. Yet we have one book left and it is left completely ambiguous.

[A Rant Lord]

Seems weird to me. The shadow was winning in the AOL. If LTT would have crossed sides instead of going to Shayol Ghul I'm thinking the shadow would have won definitly. Perhaps it is that Lanfear and LTT teamed up and Challenged the DO and all like she proposed and they would still have an internal battle?

[MarkDiLillo]

The only real answer I can come up with is that RJ's answer stating that a past Champion of the Light being turned to shadow was in regards to a specific instance, and he was not stating that anytime the Dragon is turned it leads to a draw. He was referring to Ishamael and the depth of his character. Even this is a stretch though, and is based on a lot of assumptions without much evidence.

[UncleButcher1980]

Yes that is what I was thinking. Maybe it depends on the Dark One's situation at any particular turning. With how things stand in this Third Age, with weak seals on a bore, I can't think how Rand turning would not result in a victory for the Shadow. Same in the Age of Legends, like A Rant Lord said, with a bore in the prison, surely if the Dragon turned it would be game over. But maybe in previous Ages the Dark One's prison was whole, no bore or weak area, so there was no easy way for the Dark One to break free, even with the Champion of the Light on his side. I don't know, I can't really think of a good answer.

[yoniy0]

First, you're right. RJ said as much: "In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw." (Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting). He doesn't say that it must, only that it has.

 

Second, I think this boils down to Ishamael's Sha'rah analogy. The only ways to win the war are: (a) take possession of the Fisher and move him to a spot of your color behind the opponent's line, (b) force the opponent to move the Fisher to that spot, or © attempt to utterly eliminate your opponent (a method you must choose while you still can, and it can often fail miserably). Those three options seem to correlate to TG strategies, and you'll note that the game can still be lost even if you take possession of the Fisher.

[Suttree]

Just to clarify, the CoL has been turned in the past but the "Dragon" soul incarnation never has. That may very well be the difference...

[MarkDiLillo]

Just to clarify, the CoL has been turned in the past but the "Dragon" soul incarnation never has. That may very well be the difference...

 

I dont think we know this for sure. You're just assuming. Who's to say that LTT wasn't turned in a past life?

[Suttree]

Just to clarify, the CoL has been turned in the past but the "Dragon" soul incarnation never has. That may very well be the difference...

 

I dont think we know this for sure. You're just assuming. Who's to say that LTT wasn't turned in a past life?

 

 

Well Rand for one, in TGH he tells Ishmael that he knew that he had never turned to the Shadow in any of his previous lives.

 

That combined with RJ never using the phrase Dragon when answering if the CoL has turned, leads me to believe it is true. Not to mention it is the only way both Rand and RJ could be correct.

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

[Nightstrike]

Rand just didn't know any better (in TGH, anyway). The Dragon soul is the champion of the light.

 

Marcon, Columbus, OH, May 2001 - Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

[Nightstrike]

This is the passage that the one who asked RJ questions about the champion of the Light was referring to (The Eye of the World, chapter 43):

You can stand above them, above every power and dominion but mine. There have been times when you made that choice, times when you lived long enough to know your power.

You=the Dragon

The Dragon=the champion of the Light

[Nightstrike]

Also, Lord of Chaos (chapter 6, threads woven of shadow) casts some light about this:

 

..., yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

[Suttree]

I still think that the CoL can be a soul other than the "Dragon Soul" as evidenced by RJ saying Ishy lied about LTT turning...

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

So we have RJ saying LTT has not been turned but the CoL has...doesn't get much more clear than that.

[UncleButcher1980]

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

 

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

 

 

I've always been confused by those two statements. One asks about the Champion of the Light, the other about Lews Therin's soul, but as they both reference Ishmael I've always assumed that the questioners have just interpreted what Ishmael was saying differently. Does that make sense? I don't recall the scene exactly but I didn't think Ishmael distinguished between the Dragon soul and the Champion of the Light so I always assumed Robert Jordan was essentially answering the same question - has the Dragon soul/Champion of the Light ever turned to the Shadow? But if he was making that distinction then it's a good answer to my original question. I can see how it could be a draw if the Dragon and Champion were two different people.

[yoniy0]

I can't find it right now, but I'm pretty sure I've seen quotes where RJ mentions a female Champion of the Light in some ages (not the 2nd or the 3rd), thus not Rand's soul.

Either way, saying one shouldn't trust Ishamael isn't the same as saying he was lying in this specific case, so I see no contradiction there. You should account for RJ's mood changing - he might not want to answer every question in every book signing.

[Nightstrike]

Reports from signings (paraphrased)

 

Female Dragon..NO when a female Hero is needed she is one of the ones bound to the Wheel. Jordan did mention a name but I didn't hear it. But he did say the Dragon is never female.

 

Let's try and clear some of this up... I can't remember the exact question, but from what I read in this thread, it doesn't matter (I haven't read the Female Dragon thread). RJ said that, no, it is not possible to have a female Dragon. If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*. Probably because of the blank faces he was getting he then added, you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the Horn...

He also said that a soul ready to be reborn cannot change gender, therefore the Dragon is ALWAYS male.

"Therefore"

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

So the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male. "So", meaning it's the soul Rand has.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

The Dragon soul reborn does not mean it's the same person, according to RJ.

[yoniy0]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, as I emphasized that I was talking about a female champion, which is therefore axiomatically not Rand (for the reason you mentioned) - meaning that there are times the champion of the Light isn't Rand.

[Nightstrike]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, as I emphasized that I was talking about a female champion, which is therefore axiomatically not Rand (for the reason you mentioned) - meaning that there are times the champion of the Light isn't Rand.

My quotes say the Dragon is always male.

[Nightstrike]

From ideal seek:

 

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time

 

Chapter 5

 

Page 50 (HC);

 

indicate that it was his belief that the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin had gone on since the creation

 

The Eye of the World

 

Chapter 43

 

Page 543 (HC); Page 646 (PB)

 

This struggle has gone on since the moment of creation

 

Lord of Chaos

 

Chapter 6

 

he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation

[Puny]

Reports from signings (paraphrased)

 

Female Dragon..NO when a female Hero is needed she is one of the ones bound to the Wheel. Jordan did mention a name but I didn't hear it. But he did say the Dragon is never female.

 

Let's try and clear some of this up... I can't remember the exact question, but from what I read in this thread, it doesn't matter (I haven't read the Female Dragon thread). RJ said that, no, it is not possible to have a female Dragon. If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*. Probably because of the blank faces he was getting he then added, you can find her in the scene where Mat blows the Horn...

He also said that a soul ready to be reborn cannot change gender, therefore the Dragon is ALWAYS male.

"Therefore"

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

So the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male. "So", meaning it's the soul Rand has.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

The Dragon soul reborn does not mean it's the same person, according to RJ.

 

So this mean that Rand in this age is just Rand, a farmboy but his soul is the soul of the Dragon.The Wheel of some Power choose for the Dragonsoul to be reincarnated as the person that was to be known to the world as Rand? So people that are afraid of dying are afraid that the person they percieve themselves to be will cease to exist, which it will if they are not in tune with who they are on a soul level.

Let´s say I´m here, Logain´s Pet, and the soul that I am at the core will be the same in every rebirth. I´m now living in Sweden, I have brown hair, a brother, I´m stubborn, love kids and I´m quick to laugh. In my next life when my soul is reborn, the essence of Logain´s Pet, which I was in my previous life will still be there but my personality will be different. I could turn up having red hair, living in France with three sisters, be a sulky child who becomes a mathprofessor but the core will still be Logain´s Pet soul, even though my personality will be different.

[yoniy0]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, as I emphasized that I was talking about a female champion, which is therefore axiomatically not Rand (for the reason you mentioned) - meaning that there are times the champion of the Light isn't Rand.

My quotes say the Dragon is always male.

I didn't contest that (in fact, my reaction indicated quite clearly that I'm aware of this fact). That has no bearing on whether the Light is ever Championed by a female, or whether a Champion has ever turned to the Shadow (we know that it did happen). Quite frankly, it has no bearing on the question of whether Rand has ever turned over.

 

Also, please stop quoting interviews without context, it makes it very hard to understand what you're saying or why. And please stop posting multiple times in a row, you can have that first post say everything you want; and if you forget anything - there's always editing.

[Fbombs]

This is quickly becoming pointless. We could say that Latra was a female Champion of the Light because LTT was dead, or while we're at it that LTT had effectively become an instrument of the shadow due to his insanity, with the whole thing resulting in a draw.

[Nightstrike]

I didn't contest that (in fact, my reaction indicated quite clearly that I'm aware of this fact). That has no bearing on whether the Light is ever Championed by a female, or whether a Champion has ever turned to the Shadow (we know that it did happen). Quite frankly, it has no bearing on the question of whether Rand has ever turned over.

My quotes make it absolutely clear that Rand is the Champion of the Light that people talk about. Including the characters - Ishy, and so on (and Ishy's remarks are what the readers who asked RJ questions referred to). My quotes also make it absolutely clear that the Dragon has turned over. Why do you doubt the quotes?

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

You can stand above them, above every power and dominion but mine. There have been times when you made that choice, times when you lived long enough to know your power.

You=the Dragon

 

..., yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

The Creator=the Light/The Creator's champion=the Light's champion/The Dark One=the Shadow/The Shadow's champion=the Dark One's champion

[Fbombs]

Well honestly that still doesn't say the Dragon is the only CoL