The Black Tower Dreamspike

[herid]

How big is Caemlyn in terms of distances? I'm asking because the effective radius of a dreamspike is 4 leagues and the Black Tower is less than two leagues from Caemlyn (KoD, Ch 17). Given that 1 league= 4miles that most likely means that the pretty much the whole Caemlyn is effected by the dreamspike, is this right? The palace surely is covered as the BT is to the south of the city and the palace is in the southern part of Caemlyn. Also, where exactly is Mat's camp in relation to Caemlyn? It's mentioned in ToM, Ch 8 that it's a league away but in which direction? I couldn't find any references for that.

[Finnssss22]

How big is Caemlyn in terms of distances? I'm asking because the effective radius of a dreamspike is 4 leagues and the Black Tower is less than two leagues from Caemlyn (KoD, Ch 17). Given that 1 league= 4miles that most likely means that the pretty much the whole Caemlyn is effected by the dreamspike, is this right? The palace surely is covered as the BT is to the south of the city and the palace is in the southern part of Caemlyn. Also, where exactly is Mat's camp in relation to Caemlyn? It's mentioned in ToM, Ch 8 that it's a league away but in which direction? I couldn't find any references for that.

 

They came from Murandy so it's most likely to the west of the City but you're right, there's no actual mention.

You can rule out the south though going by ToM chptr 19. His description on his journey to and through the City clearly rules out the south and the south-west entrances and the eastern entrance seems unlikely.

Only the north and west entrances would entail going through twisting, narrow streets.

[Sharaman]

How big is Caemlyn in terms of distances? I'm asking because the effective radius of a dreamspike is 4 leagues and the Black Tower is less than two leagues from Caemlyn (KoD, Ch 17). Given that 1 league= 4miles that most likely means that the pretty much the whole Caemlyn is effected by the dreamspike, is this right? The palace surely is covered as the BT is to the south of the city and the palace is in the southern part of Caemlyn. Also, where exactly is Mat's camp in relation to Caemlyn? It's mentioned in ToM, Ch 8 that it's a league away but in which direction? I couldn't find any references for that.

 

They came from Murandy so it's most likely to the west of the City but you're right, there's no actual mention.

You can rule out the south though going by ToM chptr 19. His description on his journey to and through the City clearly rules out the south and the south-west entrances and the eastern entrance seems unlikely.

Only the north and west entrances would entail going through twisting, narrow streets.

The BT and its surrounding grounds themselves may be more than 4 leagues in diameter so a Spike placed roughly in the middle of the BT complex will probably not cover a radius of more than the BT complex itself. Caemlyn is a big city in itself. Can't be bothered looking for the references but there are several descriptions of the BT and of Caemlyn that suggest a DSpike could not affect Caemlyn.

[Terez]

Actually, the dreamspike should be able to cover quite a bit more than the grounds itself - enough to include the rebel camp certainly - but it's probably a stretch to suggest it could cover Caemlyn. From my Black Tower FAQ page:

 

It's almost certain that the camp would have been included in the area of the dreamspike because the perimeter of the wall is only eight miles, as we saw in Toveine's POV. Elayne claimed that Taim walled in 'four miles' in that same prologue of Winter's Heart, which is probably close to what the area of the grounds would be. Perrin said it was a walk of 'several hours' from the center of the dreamspike's area to the edge, and 3 MPH is a pretty relaxed pace for walking. Even if the diameter of the grounds is eight miles (which seems unlikely), then Taim should have easily been able to include the rebels' camp within its area.

We don't know exactly how far the Black Tower is from Caemlyn, but it's usually described as 'a few miles'. Rand once observed from the midpoint (more or less) that it was a few miles in either direction, so it may be as far as ten miles.

[Finnssss22]

Actually, the dreamspike should be able to cover quite a bit more than the grounds itself - enough to include the rebel camp certainly - but it's probably a stretch to suggest it could cover Caemlyn. From my Black Tower FAQ page:

 

It's almost certain that the camp would have been included in the area of the dreamspike because the perimeter of the wall is only eight miles, as we saw in Toveine's POV. Elayne claimed that Taim walled in 'four miles' in that same prologue of Winter's Heart, which is probably close to what the area of the grounds would be. Perrin said it was a walk of 'several hours' from the center of the dreamspike's area to the edge, and 3 MPH is a pretty relaxed pace for walking. Even if the diameter of the grounds is eight miles (which seems unlikely), then Taim should have easily been able to include the rebels' camp within its area.

We don't know exactly how far the Black Tower is from Caemlyn, but it's usually described as 'a few miles'. Rand once observed from the midpoint (more or less) that it was a few miles in either direction, so it may be as far as ten miles.

 

 

Herid already mentioned KoD chptr 17 where Birgitte's map marks it about 2 league's or 8 miles south of the city and the Black Tower grounds are 4 miles squared, not 4 miles across.

[Terez]

I didn't say it was four miles across. Thanks for pointing out the two leagues thing, though. I'd looked for such a reference before and couldn't find one. It more or less fits with what Rand says, but it's still sort of on the edge as to whether or not we can assume Caemlyn is included. Depends on how you interpret Perrin's 'several'.

[Finnssss22]

I didn't say it was four miles across.

 

I know, that was for Sharaman's benefit, should of seperated it but I was being lazy.

 

 

Thanks for pointing out the two leagues thing, though. I'd looked for such a reference before and couldn't find one. It more or less fits with what Rand says, but it's still sort of on the edge as to whether or not we can assume Caemlyn is included. Depends on how you interpret Perrin's 'several'.

 

Herid found it first.

 

Yeah, definitely hard to qualify how far "several hours ride" would be. Def not a hard run in any event.

Covering that much distance, I'm guessing a trot or walk in the 4-6 mph range seems to fit with other distances traveled throughout the series.

 

 

We also don't know if the area covered by the Dreamspike is adjustable but looking at these numbers, that seems to be a distinct possibility imo and not expanding its' full reach until the Trolloc's started pouring out of the Waygate in Caemlyn. Makes tactical sense.

[yoniy0]

That's all if whoever decided where to locate the DS didn't care about Caemlyn. If they did, it should be a walk in the park to choose a location that will cover both (or the BT alone).

[herid]

ok folks, I guess I should have started a separate topic on this - I just assumed it was a short question. Let's do some math.

 

First, a dreamspike effects a circle of 4 leagues radius. Perrin mentions this

 

So, instead, he shifted as far as he could. Neald had said it was about four leagues from their camp to the perimeter, so Perrin shifted that far to the north, then did so again, and again.

-ToM, Ch 35

That's 16 miles radius and 32 miles diameter. That's a lot.

Next, the size of the Black Tower itself. The tower wall seems to be square.

Elayne says that Taim walled in 4 miles of Andor (WH, prologue). And Toveine said that the perimeter of the wall is 8 miles (WH, Snow). All this agrees with 2 miles by 2 miles square wall.

 

Next, as I said above, the BT is less than two leagues from Caemlyn.

Even the Black Tower had been inked in. A square sitting less than two leagues south of the city.

-KoD, Ch 17

so less than 8 miles from the city. even if this is measured from the edge of the tower that's less than 10 miles from the center of the tower to Caemlyn. That leaves extra 6 miles of radius (likely 7 miles). That could cover quite a bit of ground. I would say it should cover the palace which is in the southern part of the city. Unfortunately we don't have any references to the size of Caemlyn in terms of distances (if somebody knows, please do tell) but judging from the map that Finnsss provided it's actually not very big.

I actually found a different map which makes Caemlyn look bigger.

 

Not sure which of these is more accurate but for safety we should probably go with the bigger one. Even then the dreamspike should cover a significant chunk of the city.

 

 

 

How big is Caemlyn in terms of distances? I'm asking because the effective radius of a dreamspike is 4 leagues and the Black Tower is less than two leagues from Caemlyn (KoD, Ch 17). Given that 1 league= 4miles that most likely means that the pretty much the whole Caemlyn is effected by the dreamspike, is this right? The palace surely is covered as the BT is to the south of the city and the palace is in the southern part of Caemlyn. Also, where exactly is Mat's camp in relation to Caemlyn? It's mentioned in ToM, Ch 8 that it's a league away but in which direction? I couldn't find any references for that.

 

They came from Murandy so it's most likely to the west of the City but you're right, there's no actual mention.

You can rule out the south though going by ToM chptr 19. His description on his journey to and through the City clearly rules out the south and the south-west entrances and the eastern entrance seems unlikely.

Only the north and west entrances would entail going through twisting, narrow streets.

I thought of that too but then I realized that they came by a gateway so there is really no telling which side of the city the camp is on. Also, the map of Caemlyn that I found puts more small streets all the way around the inner city so if that map is accurate then we can't even exclude the south.

 

 

That's all if whoever decided where to locate the DS didn't care about Caemlyn. If they did, it should be a walk in the park to choose a location that will cover both (or the BT alone).

good point although I suspect they put it right in the middle of the BT in the books.

[yoniy0]

That's all if whoever decided where to locate the DS didn't care about Caemlyn. If they did, it should be a walk in the park to choose a location that will cover both (or the BT alone).

good point although I suspect they put it right in the middle of the BT in the books.

I just thought of something. Elayne used a Gateway to Travel to the field of Merrilor. So obviously, whoever activated the DS chose a location/radius that won't affect the Royal Palace in Caemlyn (and good reason for it - Elayne is using Gateways on a daily basis, which is a well known fact. Cut her off, and she will investigate and notify the White Tower, possibly Rand as well. More importantly, everyone with a spy in Caemlyn will know that Gateways have stopped working withing a few days. And there are quite a few who do).

[David Selig]

Agreed, and also Perrin's Asha'man had no problems making gateways in and around Caemlyn too when he came to meet Elayne and Mat. And we know that at the time the Dreamspike was activated at the BT, since grady was unsucceful in opening the Gateway towards it.

[herid]

That's all if whoever decided where to locate the DS didn't care about Caemlyn. If they did, it should be a walk in the park to choose a location that will cover both (or the BT alone).

good point although I suspect they put it right in the middle of the BT in the books.

I just thought of something. Elayne used a Gateway to Travel to the field of Merrilor. So obviously, whoever activated the DS chose a location/radius that won't affect the Royal Palace in Caemlyn (and good reason for it - Elayne is using Gateways on a daily basis, which is a well known fact. Cut her off, and she will investigate and notify the White Tower, possibly Rand as well. More importantly, everyone with a spy in Caemlyn will know that Gateways have stopped working withing a few days. And there are quite a few who do).

that's a good point about Elayne traveling to FOM. she definitely left after the dreamspike was activated so it did not interfere with her Traveling. it does seem to contradict the numbers that I cited but perhaps the effective radius of a dreamspike can be adjusted or its center can be moved as you suggest. However, I don't think Taim plans to keep his true allegiances secret much longer. The wall around the BT is finished, the dreamspike is in place (and Rand knows about it already), he is turning people to the shadow almost openly and the invasion of Caemlyn is under way. It would make sense for him to reposition the dreamspike now to cover most of Caemlyn to cut off Elayne's return.

[yoniy0]

It would make sense for him to reposition the dreamspike now to cover most of Caemlyn to cut off Elayne's return.

That would be unfortunate.

[Sid]

It's certainly possible that not all dreamspikes cover the same size area, and also possible that the area covered could be fine-tuned with the proper knowledge. In fact I would say it's extremely probable the latter is true. Otherwise one AoL person's dreamspike would cover the entire city they lived in all the time, which would be inconvenient to the rest of the channeling populace, to say the least.

 

I would guess that the one in the BT is just set for a smaller radius.

[Sharaman]

It's certainly possible that not all dreamspikes cover the same size area, and also possible that the area covered could be fine-tuned with the proper knowledge. In fact I would say it's extremely probable the latter is true. Otherwise one AoL person's dreamspike would cover the entire city they lived in all the time, which would be inconvenient to the rest of the channeling populace, to say the least.

 

I would guess that the one in the BT is just set for a smaller radius.

 

DSpikes have keys - so all you need is a system where anybody with a "legit need to Travel" is ushered in/ out, by someone who knows the key.

They could also have ways of fixing radius of operation but we don't know that for sure.

Given timelines, the Salidar Embassy camped just outside the BT wall are unaffected. Nyn Travels in/ out to claim Lan's Bond at a time when the DSpike in BT is already in use.

[seanzor]

It's certainly possible that not all dreamspikes cover the same size area, and also possible that the area covered could be fine-tuned with the proper knowledge. In fact I would say it's extremely probable the latter is true. Otherwise one AoL person's dreamspike would cover the entire city they lived in all the time, which would be inconvenient to the rest of the channeling populace, to say the least.

 

I would guess that the one in the BT is just set for a smaller radius.

I'm glad somebody said this because that is what I thought, also I thought it was mentioned by somebody at the black tower that traveling was possible just outside the black tower camp, but I could just be remembering somebody talking about how they couldn't just walk out because Taim had patrols and likely wouldn't allow it.

[yoniy0]

Nyn Travels in/ out to claim Lan's Bond at a time when the DSpike in BT is already in use.

I don't believe that's true. According to one timeline I've seen she Traveled there a day before Pevara finds out that she can no longer Travel out of it (which is the day the guards have been put on post at the perimeter). Perrin's trial occurs soon after, and only then does he remove the DM that was keeping him in place (until then Grady couldn't have tried to Travel back home). I'm not sure if we have concrete evidence on when Rand finds out it's in place.

[Finnssss22]

 

I thought of that too but then I realized that they came by a gateway so there is really no telling which side of the city the camp is on. Also, the map of Caemlyn that I found puts more small streets all the way around the inner city so if that map is accurate then we can't even exclude the south.

 

Only half the band traveled with Verin though. The other half was already there waiting and would of already set up camp.

 

 

Nyn Travels in/ out to claim Lan's Bond at a time when the DSpike in BT is already in use.

I don't believe that's true. According to one timeline I've seen she Traveled there a day before Pevara finds out that she can no longer Travel out of it (which is the day the guards have been put on post at the perimeter). Perrin's trial occurs soon after, and only then does he remove the DM that was keeping him in place (until then Grady couldn't have tried to Travel back home). I'm not sure if we have concrete evidence on when Rand finds out it's in place.

 

Yoniy0 is right.

It had to be longer than just one day between Nyn going there and Pevara discovering she can no longer travel.

Nyn notes the walls were not yet up and all indications are that the DS was not activated until they were.

Also, Nyn traveling there was only a few days after Rand returned from his sabbatical and while the BT timeline, according to BS, is behind everyone else at the end of ToM, it's only a matter of days not weeks though.

Either way, Nyn went there well within the first week of Rand's 30 day deadline and the final scene with Pevara and Androl is near the end of those 30 days and after the wall was completed.

Remember, a week is 10 days and a month is 3 weeks in Randland.

 

 

Should also be noted that the "Working Leather" chptr, by all indications, is at least a month behind the general timeline.

Androl notes that Amarin had only arrived with Logain less than a month ago and that happened way back in the first week of April, while Rand visited the WT and set his 30 days near the beginning of June.

 

Looking here... http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book11

 

Week 1 April:

-Logain takes Amarin to BT

-Logain moves half the BT

-Logain returns, Manor house is attacked

-Rand meets with Semi disguised as Tuon.

Week 1 May:

-Androl's PoV in "Working Leather"

-Semi is freed and collars Rand

Week 1 June:

-Rand almost kills Tam and then takes off

-Rand returns

-Nynaeve tests for the shawl

 

Suffice it to say, the BT timeline is a bit of a mess, hence why BS is going to catch them up and settle it before anything else in MoL.

[Master of Germs]

What about the fight between Mat and the gholam? Was the DS activated by the time? If so, the DS surely does not cover the city. I suppose the DS prevents weaving waygates and not only preventing Travelling, but Skimming, as well. Because, if it allows skimming, DS would be just useless and easily beaten.

[srbtarheel]

Regarding the Black tower and Dreamspike, I think there is another clue in Gawyn's pov that says he was almost cut in half by the closing gateway when he was returning to the White tower after talking to Elayne. was this the dreamspike being activated? I think someone might have brought this up before. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Finnssss22]

Regarding the Black tower and Dreamspike, I think there is another clue in Gawyn's pov that says he was almost cut in half by the closing gateway when he was returning to the White tower after talking to Elayne. was this the dreamspike being activated? I think someone might have brought this up before. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

That was Perrin moving his DS to the WT in the Wolf Dream/TAR.

[smaug]

I was under the impression that it was the dream spike that Perrin was moving to the white tower that cut off Gawn on his way back. One at either end going on would do the same thing

[Sharaman]

Nyn Travels in/ out to claim Lan's Bond at a time when the DSpike in BT is already in use.

I don't believe that's true. According to one timeline I've seen she Traveled there a day before Pevara finds out that she can no longer Travel out of it (which is the day the guards have been put on post at the perimeter). Perrin's trial occurs soon after, and only then does he remove the DM that was keeping him in place (until then Grady couldn't have tried to Travel back home). I'm not sure if we have concrete evidence on when Rand finds out it's in place.

 

It can be placed quite easily from internal evidence in the intersection of ToM narratives, using VoG as a reference point.

The book isn't nearby, so what follows is an approximation.

First, Moridin tells Graendal, that the other D-Spike "is being put to good use" and that, we know is pre-VoG because of Perrin's Timeline. So, the BT DS usage was implemented before he gave G the second D-Spike. (We also know this anyhow from the fact that we've been told by the author that the BT timeline is supposed to behind the rest.) Second, we know that the BT D-Spike is still in use around the time Rand arrives at FoM, which is VoG + almost a month.

So the BT has been cut off from well before VoG.

 

Nyn Travels to the camp outside BT, post VoG. Actually around VoG plus 4 or 5 days. Rand returns from DM, spends one-two days in Tear, is told by Nyn that's she's been called to the WT, etc. Nyn is tested, goes and claims Lan's bond on the same night.

 

Perrin's timeline can be fixed because we know when he was on DM at VoG; we know when he has the trial, returns to his camp, when he breaks the D-Spike, and moves to Caemlyn, etc.

From Perrin's Timeline,we know Grady attempts to go to the BT and can't.

 

Unless you assume that Nyn got to the camp, during some short time-interval when for whatever reason, coincidentally, the D-Spike was deactivated, she was definitely there during the period when the BT D-Spike is active.

[Shalon Casbin]

she was definitely there during the period when the BT D-Spike is active.

 

If that is true, why couldn't Perrin's Asha'man go there?

[Finnssss22]

Nyn Travels in/ out to claim Lan's Bond at a time when the DSpike in BT is already in use.

I don't believe that's true. According to one timeline I've seen she Traveled there a day before Pevara finds out that she can no longer Travel out of it (which is the day the guards have been put on post at the perimeter). Perrin's trial occurs soon after, and only then does he remove the DM that was keeping him in place (until then Grady couldn't have tried to Travel back home). I'm not sure if we have concrete evidence on when Rand finds out it's in place.

 

It can be placed quite easily from internal evidence in the intersection of ToM narratives, using VoG as a reference point.

The book isn't nearby, so what follows is an approximation.

First, Moridin tells Graendal, that the other D-Spike "is being put to good use" and that, we know is pre-VoG because of Perrin's Timeline. So, the BT DS usage was implemented before he gave G the second D-Spike. (We also know this anyhow from the fact that we've been told by the author that the BT timeline is supposed to behind the rest.) Second, we know that the BT D-Spike is still in use around the time Rand arrives at FoM, which is VoG + almost a month.

So the BT has been cut off from well before VoG.

 

Nyn Travels to the camp outside BT, post VoG. Actually around VoG plus 4 or 5 days. Rand returns from DM, spends one-two days in Tear, is told by Nyn that's she's been called to the WT, etc. Nyn is tested, goes and claims Lan's bond on the same night.

 

Perrin's timeline can be fixed because we know when he was on DM at VoG; we know when he has the trial, returns to his camp, when he breaks the D-Spike, and moves to Caemlyn, etc.

From Perrin's Timeline,we know Grady attempts to go to the BT and can't.

 

Unless you assume that Nyn got to the camp, during some short time-interval when for whatever reason, coincidentally, the D-Spike was deactivated, she was definitely there during the period when the BT D-Spike is active.

 

 

Taim may have had the DS already but there is nothing showing it was active before the walls were completed.

What would be the point otherwise?

We are told the walls are completed and traveling has been cut off at the same time. It was not a coincidence.