military opportunities missed.

[Grim]

something that has never made much sense to me. why the seanchen were allowed to keep invading after the asha'man were well established. i know that gateways have limitations. you have to know the ground, but for short jumps you can weave them instantly.

 

this allows scouting fairly easily. so find the raken/to'raken "airport" kill the grounded animals. just like bombing planes on an airfield. they would run out of raken pretty quickly. no more air force. no long range scouts. slowed advance. can be done with 20 asha'men or less.

 

rinse repeat for the ships in the harbors. no more reinforcements from the empire.

 

rinse repeat for the damane "dorms" far less damane.

 

rinse repeat for army supply lines. any army marches on it's stomach. it's impossible to feed very many men "off the land".

 

done properly all of these things could be done by 20 to 50 asha'men, in about a week. maybe it's just modern thinking to hit strategic targets, cutting the weak links, but how hard could it be to figure out?

[asha man]

something that has never made much sense to me. why the seanchen were allowed to keep invading after the asha'man were well established. i know that gateways have limitations. you have to know the ground, but for short jumps you can weave them instantly.

 

this allows scouting fairly easily. so find the raken/to'raken "airport" kill the grounded animals. just like bombing planes on an airfield. they would run out of raken pretty quickly. no more air force. no long range scouts. slowed advance. can be done with 20 asha'men or less.

 

rinse repeat for the ships in the harbors. no more reinforcements from the empire.

 

rinse repeat for the damane "dorms" far less damane.

 

rinse repeat for army supply lines. any army marches on it's stomach. it's impossible to feed very many men "off the land".

 

done properly all of these things could be done by 20 to 50 asha'men, in about a week. maybe it's just modern thinking to hit strategic targets, cutting the weak links, but how hard could it be to figure out?

 

I think the big thing is that you know a lot more about the Seanchan than Rand or the Black Tower does. If Rand knew where to find all of the grounded raken it would be a no brainer to hit, but he doesn't have very good intelligence. same with the damane dorms.

 

could have/ should have hit the harbors and the supply lines, and Rand should have seen that via his Lews Therin memories.

[asha man]

Also, I don't see Rand calling a strike on the damane, at least until the gathering storm (doesn't like to kill one woman, much less a few hundred at a time).

[moratcorlm]

Bashere: There are reports of a huge Seanchan army with hundreds of damane advancing towards Illian. You command over a million soldiers, and hundreds of Asha'man.

 

Rand: I will take 5,000 soldiers and eight Asha'man.

 

Bashere: It should work. With your mediocre planning and surrounding yourself with those who hate you, once again, you should just barely avoid complete disaster.

[Majsju]

something that has never made much sense to me. why the seanchen were allowed to keep invading after the asha'man were well established. i know that gateways have limitations. you have to know the ground, but for short jumps you can weave them instantly.

 

this allows scouting fairly easily. so find the raken/to'raken "airport" kill the grounded animals. just like bombing planes on an airfield. they would run out of raken pretty quickly. no more air force. no long range scouts. slowed advance. can be done with 20 asha'men or less.

 

rinse repeat for the ships in the harbors. no more reinforcements from the empire.

 

rinse repeat for the damane "dorms" far less damane.

 

rinse repeat for army supply lines. any army marches on it's stomach. it's impossible to feed very many men "off the land".

 

done properly all of these things could be done by 20 to 50 asha'men, in about a week. maybe it's just modern thinking to hit strategic targets, cutting the weak links, but how hard could it be to figure out?

 

Building on what Asha man wrote.

Rand acts with very limited information. Sure, he could send a couple of asha'man into Seanchan controlled territory, but they would need Mats luck to find a major raken "base".

And the harbours? even if we have not seen it in the books, I would be shocked if the Seanchan were dumb enough to not keep a couple of damane on 24/7 guard, just in case. especially after the trouble mat caused in ebou dar.

hitting damane? Unless the first strike is extremely successful, they will fight back. And they are far more experienced than the asha'man when it comes to using the OP in battle.

supply lines? same as with raken, they would need Mats luck to even find a few of them.

[Grim]

5 man team. gate weaver never leaves the BT, shield weaver first man through(weaves air shield and helps interference man), hit man (the guy that takes the shot), interference (guy that keeps enemy busy), last man trouble shooter( helps where he's needed.) in and out in about the time it takes to weave 5 or 6 weaves. change location. these aren't really invasions more like special forces strikes. doesn't give wondering damane time to respond in force. surprise would be the key to those attacks.

 

limited intel makes some sense, but in most cities. most people know where not to go cause of the women in the lightening dresses, almost any asha'man from a city could walk into any city and find the targets in about a day. finding the dorms would be easy. tear the dorms apart kill everyone inside. most damane couldn't even defend themselves. 3-5 linked sul'dam at any one time there. many sleeping damane and sul'dam not linked. not killing women makes more sense. most of the cities had an airfield outside with the garrison camp.

[Majsju]

5 man team. gate weaver never leaves the BT, shield weaver first man through(weaves air shield and helps interference man), hit man (the guy that takes the shot), interference (guy that keeps enemy busy), last man trouble shooter( helps where he's needed.) in and out in about the time it takes to weave 5 or 6 weaves. change location. these aren't really invasions more like special forces strikes. doesn't give wondering damane time to respond in force. surprise would be the key to those attacks.

 

limited intel makes some sense, but in most cities. most people know where not to go cause of the women in the lightening dresses, almost any asha'man from a city could walk into any city and find the targets in about a day. finding the dorms would be easy. tear the dorms apart kill everyone inside. most damane couldn't even defend themselves. 3-5 linked sul'dam at any one time there. many sleeping damane and sul'dam not linked. not killing women makes more sense. most of the cities had an airfield outside with the garrison camp.

 

That is a tactic that might work if you know, not only exactly where to strike, but also exactly where everything is located on the other side of the gate. With a heavy emphasis on the word 'might'.

 

More realistic ways to strike at abtarget that might be heavily defended by channelers would be either by stealth (a couple of asha'man travelling to a spot a kilometer away, and then walking to the target), or by brute force - open a couple of gates, throw the most destructive weaves you know through them, and then have a elite team go in to clean up. Still, both of those come with huge risks. And, they rely on access to a lot of intelligence. Unfortunatly, Rand does not even have any satellites, much less people on the ground with radio communication.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

It honestly wouldn't work, or wouldn't work too well. The Seanchan are not static targets or dumb either, they are a mobile army. Rand or his forces don't have the scouting ability to keep track of all the military movements in the Seanchan lines to make such effective strikes. This also ignores the extreme flexibility of the Seanchan, who immediately adapt and change tactics based on new experiences. It's why they're called the "Ever Victorious Army" and why Rand even mused if it is even possible to defeat such a military behemoth. Even in the possible futures shown to Aviendha the Seanchan resoundingly and decisively defeated the Aiel, something that not even the combined nations of Randland could manage when they were facing half the Aiel numbers back in the Aiel war.

 

While Seanchan scouting is certainly not all encompassing either. They at least possess the raken to get constant new reports from the sky.

[Grandis]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

 

So the forces of the Dragon flatten entire cities and murder tens of thousands of civilians? What exactly would this do besides strengthen Seanchan rule by turning popular opinion against the Dragon and those aligned with him and more people flocking to the Seanchan side to support their cause? Seeing that the Seanchan, as of yet, did not assault entire cities with indiscriminate use of the one power.

[Grandis]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

 

So the forces of the Dragon flatten entire cities and murder tens of thousands of civilians? What exactly would this do besides strengthen Seanchan rule by turning popular opinion against the Dragon and those aligned with him and more people flocking to the Seanchan side to support their cause? Seeing that the Seanchan, as of yet, did not assault entire cities with indiscriminate use of the one power.

 

Locations of interest refer to airfields, dorms, ports, armies, etc... Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

 

So the forces of the Dragon flatten entire cities and murder tens of thousands of civilians? What exactly would this do besides strengthen Seanchan rule by turning popular opinion against the Dragon and those aligned with him and more people flocking to the Seanchan side to support their cause? Seeing that the Seanchan, as of yet, did not assault entire cities with indiscriminate use of the one power.

 

Locations of interest refer to airfields, dorms, ports, armies, etc... Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

 

You would know where these lie how? How would they have the capability to scout it out?

[Grandis]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

 

So the forces of the Dragon flatten entire cities and murder tens of thousands of civilians? What exactly would this do besides strengthen Seanchan rule by turning popular opinion against the Dragon and those aligned with him and more people flocking to the Seanchan side to support their cause? Seeing that the Seanchan, as of yet, did not assault entire cities with indiscriminate use of the one power.

 

Locations of interest refer to airfields, dorms, ports, armies, etc... Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

 

You would know where these lie how? How would they have the capability to scout it out?

 

Go to ED. Look around. Airfield outside city. Port inside city. Dorms near palace. Army possibly outside city. Use illusion to gather intelligence inside palace. This is not rocket science.

[Grim]

i think the point wasn't to flatten the entire city but to use asha'men to scout then attack specific locations in said city. intelligence in war is never perfect. but the asha'men could have far better intel that the seanchens. traveling allows them to go anywhere instantly. this makes their intel days old instead of weeks or months old which is the normal. docks and buildings don't move. i was never suggesting to attack the mobile armies. supply lines usually start in a city. all the targets suggested would be found in the cities. and while they adapt it's a military fact you can't be strong everywhere. with traveling you can always drop behind enemy lines and hit weak points by surprise.

[tneva82]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

You are putting too much faith in one power. It's not deus ex machina that solves everything. Rand tried using Asha'man against seanchans. They didn't run over them without problem...

[Grandis]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

You are putting too much faith in one power. It's not deus ex machina that solves everything. Rand tried using Asha'man against seanchans. They didn't run over them without problem...

 

He tried using a handful. Use a shitload instead. No kill like overkill.

[tneva82]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

You are putting too much faith in one power. It's not deus ex machina that solves everything. Rand tried using Asha'man against seanchans. They didn't run over them without problem...

 

He tried using a handful. Use a shitload instead. No kill like overkill.

 

Male channellers are equal to female channellers. Seanchan's have bucketload more of female channelers...

 

Doesn't sound like winning plan ;)

 

Actually in terms of warfare damane likely beats crap out of asha'man. Difference? Experience...Asha'man are still learning. Damane can draw on centuries of experience they have collected, learned and passed on.

[Grandis]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

You are putting too much faith in one power. It's not deus ex machina that solves everything. Rand tried using Asha'man against seanchans. They didn't run over them without problem...

 

He tried using a handful. Use a shitload instead. No kill like overkill.

 

Male channellers are equal to female channellers. Seanchan's have bucketload more of female channelers...

 

Doesn't sound like winning plan ;)

 

Actually in terms of warfare damane likely beats crap out of asha'man. Difference? Experience...Asha'man are still learning. Damane can draw on centuries of experience they have collected, learned and passed on.

 

Saidin and saidar are balanced. The seanchan do not have the ability to form circles, creating imbalance. The ability to travel, before the seanchan learned it, was a force multiplier that, used properly, would have left the seanchan floundering. Also, what a Sul'dam feels, a Damane feels ten-fold. Create a flash-bang weave and they are neutralized for a few minutes. Long enough to capture.

 

Another potential weakness that seems to have been retconned later on was the fact that in TGH the sul'dam had to point out what she wanted Egwene to do, but later on Tuon was able to make one of the AS with Mat do what she wanted without the middlewoman, so to speak. Anyone know what the deal with that was?

 

Edit: What a Sul'dam feels, a Damane feels two-fold , not ten-fold.

[Erunion]

I was under the impression that the Sul'dam didn't have to make Egwene weave the weaves, she just did it in order to break Egwene's spirit as part of the training.

 

The Randlanders have one crucial intelligence advantage over the Seanchan that, if they ever use it, would allow for an incredible amount of devestation.

 

Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Supply camps, Airbases, Damane kennels, all of these are permanent enough to have a reflection in TAR. Use your dreamwalkers (or just go in the flesh), scout out the area (not too hard, considering in TAR you can fly and change physics how you want). Once the scouting mission is done, have a mirror-of-misted Asha'man team go in and find out exactly what the situation is. Once they've discovered troop/Damane placement, have them gate out (you can do it from anywhere if you just make the area invisible first with a weave that dissipates), then send in a hit-team. You could easily destroy any target, with minimal risk using gateways, illusion and weaves that don't come from the weaver (so no thrown fireballs or balefire, just exploding rocks/etc).

 

As we saw in WH, Damane kennels are usually empty of Sul'dam at nighttime, or near to it. Send in twenty or so Asha'man and you can kill or capture every single Damane in the kennel - fifteen Asha'man to grab the Damane, five to prevent any Sul'dam from getting in to use Damane. Maybe a few more illusioned up to watch for and interfere with any incoming Damane/Sul'dam pairs.

[Grandis]

I was under the impression that the Sul'dam didn't have to make Egwene weave the weaves, she just did it in order to break Egwene's spirit as part of the training.

 

The Randlanders have one crucial intelligence advantage over the Seanchan that, if they ever use it, would allow for an incredible amount of devestation.

 

Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Supply camps, Airbases, Damane kennels, all of these are permanent enough to have a reflection in TAR. Use your dreamwalkers (or just go in the flesh), scout out the area (not too hard, considering in TAR you can fly and change physics how you want). Once the scouting mission is done, have a mirror-of-misted Asha'man team go in and find out exactly what the situation is. Once they've discovered troop/Damane placement, have them gate out (you can do it from anywhere if you just make the area invisible first with a weave that dissipates), then send in a hit-team. You could easily destroy any target, with minimal risk using gateways, illusion and weaves that don't come from the weaver (so no thrown fireballs or balefire, just exploding rocks/etc).

 

As we saw in WH, Damane kennels are usually empty of Sul'dam at nighttime, or near to it. Send in twenty or so Asha'man and you can kill or capture every single Damane in the kennel - fifteen Asha'man to grab the Damane, five to prevent any Sul'dam from getting in to use Damane. Maybe a few more illusioned up to watch for and interfere with any incoming Damane/Sul'dam pairs.

 

Additionally, have the Asha'man link with the AS they've bonded, but not actually use saidar. They will then be able to see the weaves from the Seanchan without being detected themselves. Honestly, if the AM fight smart, the Seanchan should be a walk-over. Even with traveling the Seanchan are at a disadvantage because, though the AM have a base, they can easily abandon it. The Seanchan, as conquerors, cannot leave their terrirories without losing what they were fighting for all along. They have places they must defend; the AM do not.

 

They can also make a deal with the Wise Ones to turn over any Damane into their custody. The WO keep all Shaido Wise Ones, and return the newly turned, and vengeful, Damane to the BT to be used against the Seanchan. The Seanchan will certainly adapt, but any adaptation will tend to weaken their combat effectiveness.

 

As for Avi's vision of the future, that is almost certainly a worst case scenario, given the discrepancies that have already been noted in the Avi thread.

[Tollieman]

I certainly agree that there have been MANY opportunities missed. If you look how Rand took a Sammael-held Illian, he knows (and uses) the Ashaman very well. Imo, there is only one reason they haven't been used in any kind of strike force (up until the point Rand thinks to ally himself with the Seanchan); because he hasn't been BACK to the Black Tower to request/set it up.

 

Otherwise, it makes PERFECT sense to use some of them in that capacity. Androl (as a very straightforward guy with great skill for gateways) would have been perfect to be involved in such a squad, with Narishma and Damer (in charge) there as well. Devastating intelligence capturing ability, level-headedness and power as well.

 

Definitely an opportunity missed.

[Grandis]

I was under the impression that the Sul'dam didn't have to make Egwene weave the weaves, she just did it in order to break Egwene's spirit as part of the training.

 

Just checked TGH.

 

...of another sul'dam speaking sharply to her damane, who looked at Min. And then Min was yelling, too, arms flapping as if trying to ward off blows or beat away stinging insects.

 

Certainly seems like the damane need spoken instruction. Perhaps RJ tried playing a FPS online with heavy lag and realised how badly the Seanchan would be beaten in a fight, and decided to give them a boost.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

All they really have to find are the major cities, like Ebou Dar. Scout the place. Attack with massive force every location of interest. Remember, the Seanchan can't sense saidin. A dozen Asha'man in disguise can put them through a world of hurt without being in grave danger. A hundred Asha'man can completely obliterate all major forces in an area with proper planning. And if the BT has proven anything, it's that they are quick studies in the art of war.

 

You are putting too much faith in one power. It's not deus ex machina that solves everything. Rand tried using Asha'man against seanchans. They didn't run over them without problem...

 

He tried using a handful. Use a shitload instead. No kill like overkill.

 

 

And if the mission fails or unexpected occurrences take part Rand loses one of his biggest assets? Do you have any kind of idea how much losing several dozen to over a hundred of his Asha'men in a petty squabble with the Seanchan would mean for Rand once his time for the Last Battle arrives?

[Tollieman]

And if the mission fails or unexpected occurrences take part Rand loses one of his biggest assets? Do you have any kind of idea how much losing several dozen to over a hundred of his Asha'men in a petty squabble with the Seanchan would mean for Rand once his time for the Last Battle arrives?

 

Considering (Dark)Rand walked away from a truce, can you imagine the possible (since we're talking possibles) number of people that will die because the FOL are not unified to fight the Last Battle?

 

I'm not agreeing to throwing the whole bunch of ashaman at the Seanchan, but he has definitely not used them properly at all.

 

Also, no risk sometimes means no reward.

[Fel]

And if the mission fails or unexpected occurrences take part Rand loses one of his biggest assets? Do you have any kind of idea how much losing several dozen to over a hundred of his Asha'men in a petty squabble with the Seanchan would mean for Rand once his time for the Last Battle arrives?

OK, forget Rand doing it. The White Tower knew where the Seanchan base was (at least the rebels did) for some time. They could have accomplished some of these same goals (admittedly with less destruction). Gateway into Ebou Dar, scout out where the kennels are (in a manner similar to how the accepted Nynaeve did in the 2nd book or go in Tel'ahranoid), and then send a large force right into the kennels at night to steal all the damane at once. Get back the captured Aes Sedai, the captured windfinders and destroy the Seanchan's power base all in one swoop.

 

Travelling should have made the White Tower or Rand able to wipe the floor with the Seanchan in much the same way that the Forsaken should have crushed the forces of light...