Asmodean

[Sharaman]

A gateway opened through Asmo would kill him instantaneously --it might also cause quantum smear, leave 1/2 the body in one ST and the half in another ST.

[dwn]

Moiraine was worried Sammael might detect her use of balefire, even at a distance. Be'lal knew Moiraine was weaving balefire before she released it. Moiraine knew Rand used balefire on the darkhounds without seeing it. There is something inherently detectable about balefire; we now know the phenomenon as a 'balescream'.

 

A balescream is not instantaneous; we know this from Graendal's POV in the ToM prologue. Since balefire affects the pattern in the past, and given Be'lal's reaction to Moiraine, it follows that a balescream can be 'heard' in all 4 dimensions of space-time.

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

-- Robert Jordan, TOR Question of the Week

 

Per the quote above, balefire alone does not prevent transmigration of a soul. I would argue that it's not, strictly speaking, the time paradox of balefire, but rather the confusion in the pattern--the balescream--that prevents the DO from 'catching' a soul. That is, if a balescream covers the window of time the DO needs to secure a soul, he is prevented from transmigrating that soul.

 

Asmodean's death description strongly implies he was killed with balefire. To avoid anyone sensing her channeling or the resulting balescream, Graendal would have used as weak a weave as possible.

 

There was another huge balescream in the vicinity of Asmodean's death: the one resulting from Rand killing Rahvin.

 

This suggests the likelihood that Graendal's tiny use of balefire was, alone, not enough to prevent transmigration, yet it did so by causing enough additional pattern disruption in the wake of Rand's much stronger weave. This would account for the 'how' and 'where' questions of Asmodean's death.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

Moiraine was worried Sammael might detect her use of balefire, even at a distance. Be'lal knew Moiraine was weaving balefire before she released it. Moiraine knew Rand used balefire on the darkhounds without seeing it. There is something inherently detectable about balefire; we now know the phenomenon as a 'balescream'.

 

A balescream is not instantaneous; we know this from Graendal's POV in the ToM prologue. Since balefire affects the pattern in the past, and given Be'lal's reaction to Moiraine, it follows that a balescream can be 'heard' in all 4 dimensions of space-time.

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

-- Robert Jordan, TOR Question of the Week

 

Per the quote above, balefire alone does not prevent transmigration of a soul. I would argue that it's not, strictly speaking, the time paradox of balefire, but rather the confusion in the pattern--the balescream--that prevents the DO from 'catching' a soul. That is, if a balescream covers the window of time the DO needs to secure a soul, he is prevented from transmigrating that soul.

 

Asmodean's death description strongly implies he was killed with balefire. To avoid anyone sensing her channeling or the resulting balescream, Graendal would have used as weak a weave as possible.

 

There was another huge balescream in the vicinity of Asmodean's death: the one resulting from Rand killing Rahvin.

 

This suggests the likelihood that Graendal's tiny use of balefire was, alone, not enough to prevent transmigration, yet it did so by causing enough additional pattern disruption in the wake of Rand's much stronger weave. This would account for the 'how' and 'where' questions of Asmodean's death.

 

-- dwn

 

Very interesting idea. Only issue is that RJ said the problem could be worked out from the first five books itself and we first came across the bscream concept in ToM. Of course, lots of people did figure out the killer and maybe that's what he meant. But the method remains tantalising.

[dwn]

Moiraine was worried Sammael might detect her use of balefire, even at a distance. Be'lal knew Moiraine was weaving balefire before she released it. Moiraine knew Rand used balefire on the darkhounds without seeing it. There is something inherently detectable about balefire; we now know the phenomenon as a 'balescream'.

 

A balescream is not instantaneous; we know this from Graendal's POV in the ToM prologue. Since balefire affects the pattern in the past, and given Be'lal's reaction to Moiraine, it follows that a balescream can be 'heard' in all 4 dimensions of space-time.

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

-- Robert Jordan, TOR Question of the Week

 

Per the quote above, balefire alone does not prevent transmigration of a soul. I would argue that it's not, strictly speaking, the time paradox of balefire, but rather the confusion in the pattern--the balescream--that prevents the DO from 'catching' a soul. That is, if a balescream covers the window of time the DO needs to secure a soul, he is prevented from transmigrating that soul.

 

Asmodean's death description strongly implies he was killed with balefire. To avoid anyone sensing her channeling or the resulting balescream, Graendal would have used as weak a weave as possible.

 

There was another huge balescream in the vicinity of Asmodean's death: the one resulting from Rand killing Rahvin.

 

This suggests the likelihood that Graendal's tiny use of balefire was, alone, not enough to prevent transmigration, yet it did so by causing enough additional pattern disruption in the wake of Rand's much stronger weave. This would account for the 'how' and 'where' questions of Asmodean's death.

 

-- dwn

 

Very interesting idea. Only issue is that RJ said the problem could be worked out from the first five books itself and we first came across the bscream concept in ToM. Of course, lots of people did figure out the killer and maybe that's what he meant. But the method remains tantalising.

 

We didn't have a word for it, but we had several indications of the effect (see my first point above). By the time Asmodean died we had a pretty good grounding in the pattern disrupting capabilities of balefire.

 

-- dwn

[Graendals favourite]

I told you so.

[didymos]

Of course, lots of people did figure out the killer and maybe that's what he meant.

 

Not 'maybe'. That was what he meant, because the question that went with that answer was always "Who killed Asmodean?" not "How was Asmodean killed?"

 

 

Also, to expand on the 'balescream' thing: we did have the ability to piece the essentials together, because Moiraine explained what balefire did in tFoH after Rand used it on the Darkhounds, and she also explained how it had almost unraveled the Pattern back in the War of Power when a few cities went bye-bye. She even raised the possibility that the Pattern could be messed up for "years to come" if Rand did something like use Callandor's full strength to balefire something. We simply didn't know the specific AoL jargon term for the aftereffects of a really massive balefiring until ToM, or what it felt like if you were present in the area where one occurred, but we certainly knew it was not Pattern-safe. True, neither Rand nor Rahvin did anything quite so powerful as what happened to Natrin's Barrow, but they did fling around a lot of smaller balefire weaves both in the normal world and in T'A'R, and they were still pretty powerful. Especially the one that killed Rahvin.

 

It's pretty safe to say that the part of the Pattern local to Caemlyn was a tad messed up after that, and it could have been hours before it settled back down again.

[benr]

Who was Yanik?

[Crael123]

Who was Yanik?

 

LTT's friend. hahahaha i think that was the first time he she it was mentioned

[benr]

Alas, poor Yanik.

[Sharaman]

Of course, lots of people did figure out the killer and maybe that's what he meant.

 

Not 'maybe'. That was what he meant, because the question that went with that answer was always "Who killed Asmodean?" not "How was Asmodean killed?"

 

 

Also, to expand on the 'balescream' thing: we did have the ability to piece the essentials together, because Moiraine explained what balefire did in tFoH after Rand used it on the Darkhounds, and she also explained how it had almost unraveled the Pattern back in the War of Power when a few cities went bye-bye. She even raised the possibility that the Pattern could be messed up for "years to come" if Rand did something like use Callandor's full strength to balefire something. We simply didn't know the specific AoL jargon term for the aftereffects of a really massive balefiring until ToM, or what it felt like if you were present in the area where one occurred, but we certainly knew it was not Pattern-safe. True, neither Rand nor Rahvin did anything quite so powerful as what happened to Natrin's Barrow, but they did fling around a lot of smaller balefire weaves both in the normal world and in T'A'R, and they were still pretty powerful. Especially the one that killed Rahvin.

 

It's pretty safe to say that the part of the Pattern local to Caemlyn was a tad messed up after that, and it could have been hours before it settled back down again.

Maybe -- it works as an explanation.

However, I'd see the "how-where" answer, as major misdirection in that case.

Anyhow the whole resurrection-transmigration theme only became obvious in itself in LoC.

As of TFoH, we didn't know for sure that transmigration occurred.

[didymos]

As of TFoH, we didn't know for sure that transmigration occurred.

 

Doesn't really matter anyway since that "How/where" issue only came up in 2005 (12 years after tFoH was published) at a book signing. The fact that the DO couldn't resurrect Asmo only came up two years earlier, again at a book signing. All the "enough information as of tFoH" thing applied was the identity of the killer.

 

Still, it'd be interesting if Pattern damage was the explanation, because even that could have been guessed with a decent level of confidence just from what we knew as of tFoH. Transmigration too could have been guessed at, admittedly with much difficulty, by extrapolating from reincarnation, the way LTT almost took Rand over (again in tFoH), and the DO's promises of immortality and his title "Lord of the Grave", the Luc/Isam phenomenon (even the old, wrong theory that Isam had possessed Luc would have helped with that), and what happened with Fain and Mordeth (the possession ability being a sort of proof of concept). Basically it would have been possible, though very unlikely, to figure out pretty much everything about Asmo's death except the means to a high degree of accuracy using only the information available at the time of his murder. Though of course, with that same information, confirmation would have been impossible, ensuring that even if someone had managed it, they likely wouldn't have been believed or would just have been outright dismissed.

 

That's why I kinda hope it's true, because that would be some pretty impressive sneakiness on RJ's part.

[Lironah]

A new idea has occurred to me after reading the comments from the France event. I think the 'where' that was being referred to per the inability of the Dark One to resurrect Asmodean (as well as Be'lal and Rahvin, since we now know that balefire wasn't the only factor) was simply 'near Rand'. First of all, we know that the pattern was in flux around Rand, due to the effect of his being ta'veren. However, in Towers of Midnight we see Rand actively use his Light power to push back the effect of the Shadow's influence. Where'd this power come from? Unlike the True Power, we have no obvious link with anyone who wields it to explain Rand's suddenly being able to access it.

 

I present for your discussion the idea that Rand has always had access to this Light power, and just never reached for it before. Further, I suggest that this power was already in effect around him, by virtue of who he is, before he ever consciously reached for it. This protecting bubble added to the difficulty the Dark One had of reincarnating the Forsaken killed near Rand, and the fact that they were balefired was just the last straw. (It obviously wouldn't prevent it entirely, because Ishamael, Balthamel and Aginor were killed near Rand and came back anyway).

 

It also makes me wonder how the fact that Semirhage was killed with the True Power would affect whether the Dark One can bring her back. I could see it going either way.

[dwn]

A new idea has occurred to me after reading the comments from the France event. I think the 'where' that was being referred to per the inability of the Dark One to resurrect Asmodean (as well as Be'lal and Rahvin, since we now know that balefire wasn't the only factor) was simply 'near Rand'. First of all, we know that the pattern was in flux around Rand, due to the effect of his being ta'veren. However, in Towers of Midnight we see Rand actively use his Light power to push back the effect of the Shadow's influence. Where'd this power come from? Unlike the True Power, we have no obvious link with anyone who wields it to explain Rand's suddenly being able to access it.

 

I present for your discussion the idea that Rand has always had access to this Light power, and just never reached for it before. Further, I suggest that this power was already in effect around him, by virtue of who he is, before he ever consciously reached for it. This protecting bubble added to the difficulty the Dark One had of reincarnating the Forsaken killed near Rand, and the fact that they were balefired was just the last straw. (It obviously wouldn't prevent it entirely, because Ishamael, Balthamel and Aginor were killed near Rand and came back anyway).

 

It also makes me wonder how the fact that Semirhage was killed with the True Power would affect whether the Dark One can bring her back. I could see it going either way.

 

It could even be the strong ta'veren effect alone that makes it difficult. Really, any one of these--the balescream 'echos', ta'veren twisting, or that Dragon effect--could be said to cause distortions in the Pattern, that, in conjunction with even a wisp of balefire, prevents the DO from securing a soul.

 

-- dwn

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I don't take anything that was said as definitive proof that it was Graendal. :]

 

Take a look @ the glossary under "Graendal."

 

All it said is that she is "responsible".

 

Oh well, guess i was wrong and it WAS staring us in the face the whole time.

 

Go on then, rip me to shreds for ever saying it was Slayer....

 

Giving up already huh? If anything, I'm more convinced the actual killer, who directly killed him, was Slayer.

 

I did notice that it said she is "responsible" for Asmo's death, but I wouldn't read too much into that "responsible." The identity of Asmo's killer was a fact that RJ himself didn't consider all that important so I doubt the solution is as complicated as all that. Moreover, he also stated that we should be able to figure it out by the end of TPoD which I'm pretty sure is the book where we see Graendal searching through Sammael's old hold in Illian searching for objects of power. Given this I would say that she was in Camlyn following Rhavin's death doing the exact same thing. More in likely, this was not an organized assassination of Asmodean, but rather he just happened upon Graendal while she was searching for said objects of power.

[didymos]

A new idea has occurred to me after reading the comments from the France event. I think the 'where' that was being referred to per the inability of the Dark One to resurrect Asmodean (as well as Be'lal and Rahvin, since we now know that balefire wasn't the only factor) was simply 'near Rand'.

 

Asmodean was further from Rand than Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael. And yet, we still got Osan'gar, Aran'gar, and Moridin. And also, much like the "It's T'A'R" theory, Rahvin died rather near to Rand too. What did the DO bitch about? The balefire. Sammael died near Rand too. What stopped the DO from a transmigration attempt? His thread was corrupted by Mashadar.

[didymos]

Moreover, he also stated that we should be able to figure it out by the end of TPoD which I'm pretty sure is the book where we see Graendal searching through Sammael's old hold in Illian searching for objects of power.

 

He actually said there was enough to figure out the ID as of the moment of the murder. People just mistook his meaning to be "You can have 100% absolute certainty based on the evidence available as of tFoH" and then took his ironic use of "intuitively obvious" to mean "as obvious as the color of the sky", and lo, a million overly-convoluted theories were born.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Moreover, he also stated that we should be able to figure it out by the end of TPoD which I'm pretty sure is the book where we see Graendal searching through Sammael's old hold in Illian searching for objects of power.

 

He actually said there was enough to figure out the ID as of the moment of the murder. People just mistook his meaning to be "You can have 100% absolute certainty based on the evidence available as of tFoH" and then took his ironic use of "intuitively obvious" to mean "as obvious as the color of the sky", and lo, a million overly-convoluted theories were born.

 

Yes, I know that he said that. RJ did indeed say that there were enough clues to figure out the ID of the murderer @ the time of the murder, but he ALSO said that we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of TPoD. The two quotes aren't mutually exclusive and taken all together it means that there were enough clues @ the time of the murder in TFoH but apparently we got another huge clue in TPoD. Many speculated that this clue was Graendal raiding Sammael's stash in Illian and I'm inclined to believe they were correct.

 

And just out of curiosity, were you there when RJ made the "intuitively obvious" quote? I not saying that I don't believe you, but until this thread I've never heard anyone mention it being ironic.

[didymos]

Moreover, he also stated that we should be able to figure it out by the end of TPoD which I'm pretty sure is the book where we see Graendal searching through Sammael's old hold in Illian searching for objects of power.

 

He actually said there was enough to figure out the ID as of the moment of the murder. People just mistook his meaning to be "You can have 100% absolute certainty based on the evidence available as of tFoH" and then took his ironic use of "intuitively obvious" to mean "as obvious as the color of the sky", and lo, a million overly-convoluted theories were born.

 

Yes, I know that he said that. RJ did indeed say that there were enough clues to figure out the ID of the murderer @ the time of the murder, but he ALSO said that we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of TPoD. The two quotes aren't mutually exclusive and taken all together it means that there were enough clues @ the time of the murder in TFoH but apparently we got another huge clue in TPoD. Many speculated that this clue was Graendal raiding Sammael's stash in Illian and I'm inclined to believe they were correct.

 

And just out of curiosity, were you there when RJ made the "intuitively obvious" quote? I not saying that I don't believe you, but until this thread I've never heard anyone mention it being ironic.

 

A specific phrase he used on multiple occassions was "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer". This is a fairly common math/physics professor way of saying "not actually obvious at all but you people should be able to figure it out if you'd just pay better attention". Generally, the students all think the professor is high and needs to actually explain things better, even if it is possible to figure it out on one's own. When asked, he admitted that's how he meant it:

 

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 14 November 1998, Louisville, KY - Matthew Hunter reporting

 

Who killed Asmodean?

 

o It should be "intuitively obvious".

o There ARE clues in later books. They may not be necessary, but they are there. I am not sure if he said "later" or "latest", though.

o He does indeed mean "intuitively obvious" in the sense that his math teachers would use when describing a proof, as speculated on rasfwr-j. "I always hated that."

 

Basically, he was being a bit of a smart-ass about it.

[billegoat]

Ive read all these theories on why Asmodean cant be ressurected, and honestly i dont know why more come to the conclusion that i have.

To me, it is simply that "black thread" Rand rips off Asmodean in rhuidean, and asmodean says now he wont be shielded from the madness.

If this is a link to the DO, why isnt that simply the means for him to reach out to dead ones as well?

 

Not everyone has a black thread, but that doesn't mean they need one for the Dark One to revive them.

Only the forsaken , and they are the only tool The DO bother resurrect .

 

rand cut the threads off of ishamael and that didn't prevent the DO from resurrecting him. IMO its like the previous poster said, the DO just doesnt want to bring him back as he was the weakest, least reliable, and least useful of the whole lot.

[didymos]

BTW, this old quote is pretty funny now:

 

CNN Chat 12 December 2000

Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

 

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

 

Moreso for all the wrangling after the fact about whether he really meant Graendal did it, how he couldn't possibly have meant that, or if someone actually doctored the chat transcript, etc.

[didymos]

rand cut the threads off of ishamael and that didn't prevent the DO from resurrecting him. IMO its like the previous poster said, the DO just doesnt want to bring him back as he was the weakest, least reliable, and least useful of the whole lot.

 

No. The DO could not bring him back:

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

[Cirin]

I think the great ploy that's been pulled on us all is what Demandred's been up to: NOTHING! Demandred is dead, and Asmodean is actually still alive MASQUEREDING as Demandred! He's just been fiddling around writing music ("fiddling" - Get it?) and randomly sending positive reports to Shayol Ghul.

 

Yep.

[ka243]

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

 

FYI, lots of new info on asmodean in my report on the paris signing here, including info about this quote in particular:

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=129071#post129071

[dwn]

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

 

FYI, lots of new info on asmodean in my report on the paris signing here, including info about this quote in particular:

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=129071#post129071

 

Very cool. The 'Sherlock Holmes' style thing is probably the deductive breakdown in the FAQ. I still favour the pattern warping explanation, but Caemlyn as a 'where' could be tied to the current shadowspawn invasion.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edit: The 'Sherlock Holmes' version is apparently different than the one I was familiar with. The Signing thread has details.)

[Mr Ares]

IMO its like the previous poster said, the DO just doesnt want to bring him back as he was the weakest, least reliable, and least useful of the whole lot.

Given there is no support for him being weakest, least reliable or least useful of the whole lot, I'd say that's quite a leap.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

 

FYI, lots of new info on asmodean in my report on the paris signing here, including info about this quote in particular:

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=129071#post129071

"He also said that RJ's answer to WSB "The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors." might be interpreted as both factors (each alone) would have prevented the DO from bringing asmo back (and not just one or just the other) OR both factors (each alone) were not sufficient to prevent the DO from bringing asmo back and the combination of both was required. It seemed to me like his vision of it was more the first answer than the second (both factors each alone would have prevented it)." Glad to hear this - I had mentioned the possibility, nice to have some confirmation.