Sul'dam and damane

[Moon Sedai]

Is it just me, or does it look like the Seanchan are not interested in obtaining new Suldam when they came as the Return, just new Damane? I don't think I've heard of a single Taraboner or Altaran Sul'dam.

[Val Mickey]

They have many more sul'dam than they have damane. So they probably don't need more sul'dam. They might've started looking for sul'dam in the lands they control.

 

P.S It might be that Liandrin might end up as a sul'dam. That would be so cool.

 

Edited to sneak in Liandrin.

[Guest]

i just hope this practice faces its end in the near future. treating channelers as pets simply doesnt work for me :F

[yoniy0]

Cool new signature.

Is making da'covel more humane, in your opinion?

[Guest]

Cool new signature.

Is making da'covel more humane, in your opinion?

 

thanks, and i have to thank Auld Manrivar for it :D

 

and no, i just didnt think of including it in my statement.

 

id say the general way of making ppl not have a "human value" make me not like em

[yoniy0]

Yeah, me too. That's my one beef with them. Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara didn't deserve to govern themselves; they didn't do such a good job at it. The Sea Folk are a different story, I guess. Okay, just to be fair, two points of disagreement.

[Durinax]

Is it just me, or does it look like the Seanchan are not interested in obtaining new Suldam when they came as the Return, just new Damane? I don't think I've heard of a single Taraboner or Altaran Sul'dam.

I think they are avoidign having native suldam because that is a cornerstone of the army, and they are not sure of the loyalties of the natives entirely

[Cut Strand]

I think part of the reason you don't see local sul'dam is they are now using forkroot to screen for channelers. That stuff would knock any learner/sparker on her butt (have we seen the effect of forkroot on men?) so any potential local sul'dam are snatched up as marath'damane. I imagine a lot of the women taken in that fashion probably respond with, "Are you sure I can channel?"

[dovien]

That stuff would knock any learner/sparker on her butt (have we seen the effect of forkroot on men?) so any potential local sul'dam are snatched up as marath'damane.

We haven't seen the effect of forkroot on men so far as I know. Also, I don't think it works on women who can learn to channel (as opposed to women who have the spark or who channel already). If it did then the secret would be out as soon as the first suldam tried a sip.

[Celes Chere]

Hmm... I think that part of the reason the Seanchan are not looking for foreign sul'dam is the same reason they are not recruiting non-Seanchan soldiers or bureaucrats; they want, with the exception of leashing foreign damane, to leave the people they have conquered to do their own thing, but under Seanchan law. Also, being a sul'dam is, among the Seachan, a respected and honoured position that is only open to people with the right natural abilities and who have undergone the training, so it's possible that they don't think foreigners have what it takes. Lastly, I seriously doubt that they would trust anyone from a continent that believed a "marath'damane" should be honoured, respected and/or feared to control their "valuable property" as Egeanin puts it.

[Val Mickey]

That stuff would knock any learner/sparker on her butt (have we seen the effect of forkroot on men?) so any potential local sul'dam are snatched up as marath'damane.

We haven't seen the effect of forkroot on men so far as I know. Also, I don't think it works on women who can learn to channel (as opposed to women who have the spark or who channel already). If it did then the secret would be out as soon as the first suldam tried a sip.

 

I believe Tylee Khirgan once mentions to Perrin that they give a tea that makes a woman go weak in the knees, and sometimes a man too. I'm not sure as to who told whom that (It could be Thom to Mat, or Balwer to Perrin, but it's there).

 

Hmm... I think that part of the reason the Seanchan are not looking for foreign sul'dam is the same reason they are not recruiting non-Seanchan soldiers or bureaucrats;

 

The Taraboners and the Altarans have their own regiments now. The Whitecloaks were also drafted (okay, maybe) till Galad killed Valda.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, sul'dam can train more than one damane, theoretically they could train 20 at a time. As mentnioed, there are most likely a lot more sul'dam than damane.

 

And I dont think that they really want sul'dam from Tarabon etc... they view them as primitive and "lost", I dont see them putting any in a position such as sul'dam.

[didymos]

As mentnioed, there are most likely a lot more sul'dam than damane.

 

 

No, there are definitely a lot more. We learned that in tGH from Renna:

"Many sul'dam will wear your bracelet over the years -- there are always more sul'dam than damane...

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, having more sul'dam doesn't really help them out any, so it's not something you'd expect them to get around to for the first decade or two while they're over on the other side of the ocean.

[didymos]

I wouldn't be surprised, however, if they'd tested a bunch of women in their new territories and made note of who could be sul'dam just in case they need some more at some point. Seems like a very Seanchan thing to do.

[Sharaman]

They've gone through the forkroot and a'dam routine everywhere so they will have picked up non-sparkers (sul'dam) as well as sparkers (damane).

But not every woman who can be a sul'dam becomes one in Seanchan either - there's an over-supply since there are far more non-sparkers.

Alwhin for example (Suroth's right hand) generally didn't do sul'dam duties, though she can.

[Moon Sedai]

They've gone through the forkroot and a'dam routine everywhere so they will have picked up non-sparkers (sul'dam) as well as sparkers (damane).

But not every woman who can be a sul'dam becomes one in Seanchan either - there's an over-supply since there are far more non-sparkers.

Alwhin for example (Suroth's right hand) generally didn't do sul'dam duties, though she can.

 

Like Tuon. She could be Sul'dam, and she does train damane, but she is not sul'dam.

I like that phrase- sparkers vs non-sparkers...

[Sharaman]

They've gone through the forkroot and a'dam routine everywhere so they will have picked up non-sparkers (sul'dam) as well as sparkers (damane).

But not every woman who can be a sul'dam becomes one in Seanchan either - there's an over-supply since there are far more non-sparkers.

Alwhin for example (Suroth's right hand) generally didn't do sul'dam duties, though she can.

 

Like Tuon. She could be Sul'dam, and she does train damane, but she is not sul'dam.

I like that phrase- sparkers vs non-sparkers...

I didn't invent it. There are several earlier threads on this issue and its anomalies.

Lots of points of debate.

For example: Avi and Alice have a talent for seeing Sul'dam as "strange, weak channelers" whereas all the AS in Ebou Dar (and Egwene) who were in constant touch with sul'dam didn't actually realise their channeling potential though Egwene worked it out. How come out of the zillions of damane in Seanchan, nobody else has this talentsince they can certainly sense full channelers? Or is it just assumed by damane that experienced sul'dam will feel different?

We also don't know why the Seanchan never figured out that all damane can also be sul'dam and then investigate the possibility of the opposite being true. (After all, it was originally known when deane invented the a'dam, so that knowledge would have to be wiped out over centuries - difficult in a bureaucracy, which keeps records and where channelers who live 400+ years are around).

There's also another statistical gap. All sul'dam are tested regularly with the a'dam till they're 25. How come some of them (even a small percentage) in a vast empire with 100,000s of channelers didn't get held by the a'dam, revealing the secret? We know experienced sul'dam can see weaves and under duress, (Bethamin in fear of being killed) channel?

Or is the secret known and concealed by the High Blood and the Royal Family? Tuon didn't seem all that surprised when Egeanin blurts it out in CoT.

Etc. etc.

[waffle]

There's also another statistical gap. All sul'dam are tested regularly with the a'dam till they're 25. How come some of them (even a small percentage) in a vast empire with 100,000s of channelers didn't get held by the a'dam, revealing the secret?

 

Who says they didn´t? The channeling skill and the sul´dam "skill" were not seen as mutually exclusive. So if a few can do both, then they thought: "well bummer, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Pity too. She was up for promotion next week"

[didymos]

There's also another statistical gap. All sul'dam are tested regularly with the a'dam till they're 25. How come some of them (even a small percentage) in a vast empire with 100,000s of channelers didn't get held by the a'dam, revealing the secret? We know experienced sul'dam can see weaves and under duress, (Bethamin in fear of being killed) channel?

 

Because it takes a long, long time in terms of actual leash-hours for them to get to that point:

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something.

 

This gives a bit more detail:

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?

 

RJ: No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow. You will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

It's actually the massive oversupply that has helped conceal the truth by cutting down on how much time each woman spends holding the leash. And of course, it's quite possible that it's been discovered before and effectively suppressed.

[yoniy0]

So if a few can do both, then they thought: "well bummer, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Pity too. She was up for promotion next week"

Ha!

[Sharaman]

There's also another statistical gap. All sul'dam are tested regularly with the a'dam till they're 25. How come some of them (even a small percentage) in a vast empire with 100,000s of channelers didn't get held by the a'dam, revealing the secret? We know experienced sul'dam can see weaves and under duress, (Bethamin in fear of being killed) channel?

 

Because it takes a long, long time in terms of actual leash-hours for them to get to that point:

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something.

 

This gives a bit more detail:

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?

 

RJ: No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow. You will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

It's actually the massive oversupply that has helped conceal the truth by cutting down on how much time each woman spends actually holding the leash. And of course, it's quite possible that it's been discovered before and effectively suppressed.

 

We're not talking about a small centralised authority where info can be controlled.

The effective suppression would be tough - this is a village-by-village winnowing involving millions of women. It's effectively like taking a census: send out workers to find every women between 12-25 and test them, record, etc. It would be done by low-level clerks, who would send reports up the line, villagers would talk, etc., some of those areas may not be very long "consolidated", there may also be sparkers, who test out as sul'dam material at say age 16 and spark at age 17-18.

 

Yes, the over-supply means not very many sul'dam are complete for very long. But even if it's a very, very small percentage, the statistical chances that say, 15 out of 10,000 sul'dam would test positive every year is good and even that sort of number would be difficult to conceal because you'd never know where it was going to happen. Also remember that sul'dam and damane don't all belong to the crown and they're not all tasked by the army. So there's a floating population of them moving around working for merchants, etc.

 

Sure, you can find explanations for the anomalies but they all stretch credibility because of sheer sample size and the other things we know about the power and how saidar channelers recognise each other.

[waffle]

But even if it's a very, very small percentage, the statistical chances that say, 15 out of 10,000 sul'dam would test positive every year is good and even that sort of number would be difficult to conceal because you'd never know where it was going to happen.

 

Why bother with concealing it? If the abilities were seen as two completely different things then there was no reason to conceal that a very very very small amount of suldam possibly might be collared. That´s the whole point of testing the sul´dam after they´ve become sul´dam isn´t it? Finding those women who have been born with both the i-shall-protect-you-from-the-cursed-ones blessing and the i-will-murder-and-eat-you-children-because-i-channel curse.

[Sharaman]

But even if it's a very, very small percentage, the statistical chances that say, 15 out of 10,000 sul'dam would test positive every year is good and even that sort of number would be difficult to conceal because you'd never know where it was going to happen.

 

Why bother with concealing it? If the abilities were seen as two completely different things then there was no reason to conceal that a very very very small amount of suldam possibly might be collared. That´s the whole point of testing the sul´dam after they´ve become sul´dam isn´t it? Finding those women who have been born with both the i-shall-protect-you-from-the-cursed-ones blessing and the i-will-murder-and-eat-you-children-because-i-channel curse.

Well, we obviously know it has been concealed since sul'dam didn't know it was possible, and neither did High Lady Suroth. (Tuon may just have known - her reaction on the reveal is unreadable).

As to why, Seanchan's power structure is built around controlling damane and treating them more or less the same way they treat raken, grolm, etc.

If it became apparent that damane and their controllers were essentially the same, it would destabilise the entire structure.

Or so, we've been told.

[yoniy0]

No need to conceal anything. A few sul'dam should be collared. They are discovered in the course of the mandatory tests. Everything working as it should.