The Davram Bashere darkfriend theory

[CTKShadow]

Just about every time Bashere's name comes up, a couple of people make comments about the strong possibility that he is a darkfriend as discussed in other threads.

 

Now, it's been a good while since I read the books (except tGS), so I'm not arguing that he is or is not a darkfriend (although I know we have some PoVs from him, but hey, we had PoVs from Verin too). But I can't find anywhere (even on google) any actual arguments why people feel so strongly that he may be a very well placed darkfriend.

 

In any case, to the best of my recollection I had never really suspected Bashere at all, until I started following online again. So can someone either direct me to a discussion or sum up the main points as to why Bashere is possibly a darkfriend?

 

(Again, I only read the majority of the series twice and neither of those was recently; So for example I hadn't suspected any of the main wise ones until I came online, but after seeing the timing and of certain events it is clear at least one of them must be a DF - is there something similar going on with Bashere?)

[Kelven]

I don't know if there are any specific discussion threads on whether Bashere is a DF (though if there are, I'd like to read them too :P). I've suspected he could be a DF simply because he's too awesome NOT to turn out to be a bad guy in some plot twist.

[FarShainMael]

Some time ago I put together some thoughts about Bashere. There follows a combination of three posts I made; hope they're not too confusing!

 

 

Why do I think Bashere might be a DF? There are a number of pointers, especially if - as seems likely - Taim is a DF:

 

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

 

2) The WO dreams, recounted by Egwene to Rand:

 

"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

 

This, of course, could apply to anyone closely associated with Rand. Including Taim himself, except that he is not in Rand's immediate vicinity much these days.

 

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

 

5) The note Bashere says was found in the thieves' pockets after the attempted theft from his tent. As I mentioned earlier, in CoT Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. He says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That could be a piece of misdirection; perhaps he did write it himself, and is anticipating anyone identifying it as being in his hand.

 

None of these is anywhere near strong enough to be called evidence, not even Min's viewing. However, taken as a group, they were enough to make me keep a very close eye on DB.

 

 

 

Later, I added this:

 

CoT Prologue: Deira tells Bashere that she surprised two men ransacking their tent and fought them off, receiving a knife wound in the process, for which she is being treated while they talk (ie listeners present). The two thieves were later found dead, killed almost professionally, so they cannot be made to talk.

 

Then, later in Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. Now here's an interesting bit.. Bashere says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That note wasn't mentioned earlier AFAIK.. if there was one, perhaps Bashere did write it!

 

 

And this:

 

I've had a read through both DB's PoVs in tPoD and CoT, and they are as ambiguous as Min's viewing suggests.

 

tPoD Ch23/24:

 

Bashere tried to dissuade Rand from pressing the attack to Ebou Dar at the end of Ch23. The attack goes ahead. DB speaks angrily with Rochaid, apparently for being slow to attack damane, but then he would - he's losing soldiers. He muses to himself that 'today had been costly' and the comment about not wanting 'that sort of man wqndering about loose' may mean channellers, or deserters/potential renegades.

 

The Forsaken aren't exactly bosom pals, and neither would DFs be, I think!

 

CoT prologue:

 

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!

 

When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

 

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but is this because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?

 

The thieves are found, having been killed by a stab to the back of the head with a narrow blade. I don't think DB had time to do that himself, FWIW - if he was responsible, it's quite likely that he had a third man out there to do the job. He's certainly ready to kill the thieves - 'murder on his face' - but then he would be, whether for attacking his wife or to make sure they're silenced. Or, possibly, both.

 

It's interesting that that was described as murder 'on his face' rather than 'in his heart'.

 

His closing remark is curious. He whispers to Tumad (one of Taim's guards in LoC Ch2) to find 'the man who came to him yesterday', to tell him DB agreed, but 'there will be a few more than we talked about'.

 

In both tPoD and CoT, all very ambiguous.. but then it would be, wouldn't it?

 

One way or another though, it seems we will lose Bashere (see Min's Viewing of Perrin and the broken crown); but whether that is for or against the Light remains to be seen.

 

 

BTW, I've just done a search on Bashere, and the possibility of his being a DF has been suggested by others more than a few times. So has the possibility of fake seals.

[Demiandre]

The last comment about the man coming to him the day before, is assumed to be Logain. He approached Bashere to find Rand.

 

I don't think he is a Darkfriend. Not enough evidence...

[FarShainMael]

You're a Pink Floyd fan, I see! Like my OH! :)

 

 

Assumed, yes..

[Demiandre]

And I probably go to the thirtiest anniversary Concert of The Wall by Roger Waters in Bercy (Paris) on May 30th 2010!^^

[Silver]

Nice theory, only a couple points I have an issue with.

 

 

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

 

Is there a reason to believe they've ever seen each other? Most likely, they've only heard descriptions of the other.

 

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!

 

He doesn't get phased by male channelers, or having people trying to murder him. Why should he be worried about Tenobia? She's a relative, and one he knows very well, and more likely to be lenient after a bit of a talk.

 

 

When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

 

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but is this because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?

 

I've always thought the "expecting this' referred to people trying to kill him/his family. He is a Great General and really close to Rand to boot.

[Cut Strand]

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

 

2) The WO dreams, recounted by Egwene to Rand:

"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

 

This, of course, could apply to anyone closely associated with Rand. Including Taim himself, except that he is not in Rand's immediate vicinity much these days.

Actually, this is the grayman that Rand trapped in air and Taim sent fire through.

 

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

As Silver said, is there any reason to think they saw each other? Taim shaved, and Saldaeans don't shave smooth normally.

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

Bashere merely is of the opinion that if it comes to a situation where Rand needs to use a sword, the world is already FUBAR. But Bashere also thinks like a war general, and not a paranoid king.

 

5) The note Bashere says was found in the thieves' pockets after the attempted theft from his tent. As I mentioned earlier, in CoT Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. He says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That could be a piece of misdirection; perhaps he did write it himself, and is anticipating anyone identifying it as being in his hand.

If Bashere were a bad guy, he could disappear the items and not cause a ruckus. The only reason to stage a theft is if the items in question were going to be requested soon.

 

CoT Prologue: Deira tells Bashere that she surprised two men ransacking their tent and fought them off, receiving a knife wound in the process, for which she is being treated while they talk (ie listeners present). The two thieves were later found dead, killed almost professionally, so they cannot be made to talk.

How is this evidence? Some bad guy used two flunkies to do something, then killed them. That seems like Evil Guy Standard Operating Procedure. In fact, I would be more surprised if the evil guy DIDN'T kill the flunkies.

 

Then, later in Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. Now here's an interesting bit.. Bashere says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That note wasn't mentioned earlier AFAIK.. if there was one, perhaps Bashere did write it!

Still doesn't address the fact that if Bashere wanted the items disappeared he could've arranged for it to happen without causing a ruckus. The fact that his wife was injured makes the theft more noticeable, the best thefts leave the victim unaware of the theft entirely.

 

 

tPoD Ch23/24:

 

Bashere tried to dissuade Rand from pressing the attack to Ebou Dar at the end of Ch23. The attack goes ahead. DB speaks angrily with Rochaid, apparently for being slow to attack damane, but then he would - he's losing soldiers. He muses to himself that 'today had been costly' and the comment about not wanting 'that sort of man wqndering about loose' may mean channellers, or deserters/potential renegades.

Yeah, Bashere wanted to retreat because (1) Rand was injured, (2) the Asha'man were freaking out (because saidin was acting hinky), and (3) Rand was acting irrational (which is bad for a war leader that can drop lightning from the sky, especially when it has already landed on their own side!).

 

CoT prologue:

 

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!

Well, Bashere did defect to the Dragon Reborn and he didn't take the opportunity to kill Taim, that is 2 betrayals right there.

 

When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

 

No doubt this would be because he's expecting an attempt to steal the seal - though why, when surely no-one knows he has it - but is this because he has given orders for it to be stolen, to remove it from Rand, or to bolster his own credibility?

 

The thieves are found, having been killed by a stab to the back of the head with a narrow blade. I don't think DB had time to do that himself, FWIW - if he was responsible, it's quite likely that he had a third man out there to do the job. He's certainly ready to kill the thieves - 'murder on his face' - but then he would be, whether for attacking his wife or to make sure they're silenced. Or, possibly, both.

 

It's interesting that that was described as murder 'on his face' rather than 'in his heart'.

 

His closing remark is curious. He whispers to Tumad (one of Taim's guards in LoC Ch2) to find 'the man who came to him yesterday', to tell him DB agreed, but 'there will be a few more than we talked about'.

 

In both tPoD and CoT, all very ambiguous.. but then it would be, wouldn't it?

 

One way or another though, it seems we will lose Bashere (see Min's Viewing of Perrin and the broken crown); but whether that is for or against the Light remains to be seen.

 

BTW, I've just done a search on Bashere, and the possibility of his being a DF has been suggested by others more than a few times. So has the possibility of fake seals.

It is totally reasonable to expect an attempted theft on the seal.

 

And Bashere was being subtle and cautious when telling Tumad that he wanted more Asha'man on hand. The man he met with could've been Logain. Logain's prologue bit about "wanting to go recruit" is before Bashere's bit with Tumad.

 

For those that don't recall (and don't feel like looking it up), Tumad is one of Bashere's lieutenants. He is not a male channeler. And he died in the trolloc attack on Algarin Pendaloan's manor.

[Crael123]

im curious to see how this one plays out

[CTKShadow]

Thanks for the explanation :)

[FarShainMael]

im curious to see how this one plays out

 

So am I ;)

 

Well, there you have it, CTKS. Both sides of the story. Make of them what you will.

[FarShainMael]

And I probably go to the thirtiest anniversary Concert of The Wall by Roger Waters in Bercy (Paris) on May 30th 2010!^^

 

Of course you did!!

 

*We don't need no ed-u-cay-shun...* ;)

[Demiandre]

*We don't need no ed-u-cay-shun...*

I love to play it with my bass guitar, with a heavy bass setting. It drums in my head

 

Just a question : why "you did"? It's in the future...

 

Well, Bashere did defect to the Dragon Reborn and he didn't take the opportunity to kill Taim, that is 2 betrayals right there.

I agree there. Also, He isn't very worried, as he suspect she will swear fealty to Rand.

[FarShainMael]

The date you've given is May 30, is that wrong then?

[Demiandre]

No, the date is correct; it's the year that isn't... ;) I wanted to say May 30th 2011 :D

 

Would have been incoherent if 2010. "probably", if I went there, is anachronic

[FarShainMael]

Well, I hope you enjoy it, anyway!

[Demiandre]

Of course I will! ;)

[GYLD]

This is hardly evidence, but I was reading (well, listening) to The Path of Daggers last night and I noticed Bashere's Marshal General baton is described as having a wolf headed pommel. Which seems to scream that Perrin is going to end up replacing Bashere one way or another. At least that's what I gathered.

[Demiandre]

Well, if Bashere dies, and Tenobia as well, Perrin is next in line for the Kingdom. Which seems very likely. But I didn't connected the baton with Perrin. And that is quite obvious...

[FarShainMael]

Min's viewing of Perrin in TEotW 15:

 

'A wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him '

 

The Broken Crown is connected to Saldaea (CoT Prologue)

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/cot/prologue.html

[Kaznen]

Some time ago I put together some thoughts about Bashere. There follows a combination of three posts I made; hope they're not too confusing!

 

2) The WO dreams, recounted by Egwene to Rand:

 

"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

 

This, of course, could apply to anyone closely associated with Rand. Including Taim himself, except that he is not in Rand's immediate vicinity much these days.

 

Or it could apply to the greyman that snuck into Rand's bedchamber that Taim showed up to kill oh so conviently.

 

3) The incident where Bashere claims not to recognise Taim, and Taim says it's because he shaved off his beard, seems very unlikely, to me. As I've said earlier, you can usually recognise someone by his eyes - and his gait.

 

I met Taim after he was defeated and captured by AS. Don't think he did a lot of walking around then, or looking up and making eye contact.

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

 

Unrestrained on the battle field yes. He wouldn't need to use the sword, but Rand practiced like he would be using it on a battle field. Rand and other AM have had time when they couldn't or shouldn't use saidin (Not just Far Madding)like when Rand was shielded, he couldn't use the OP but he used his unarmed and sword skills to kill to warders. The AM he sent to Seanchan held territories needed to keep a low profile. Using the OP when others might learn of it would put up a flag AM were there.

 

I think Bashere was thinking like Lan thought right before the Battle of Caraihien when Lan called Rand out for carrying a sword. Are you saying Lan is a Darkfriend?

 

5) The note Bashere says was found in the thieves' pockets after the attempted theft from his tent. As I mentioned earlier, in CoT Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. He says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That could be a piece of misdirection; perhaps he did write it himself, and is anticipating anyone identifying it as being in his hand.

 

They found a similar note on Dobraine's assassin's also. Just Dobraine wasn't in the condition to talk.

 

Bashere tried to dissuade Rand from pressing the attack to Ebou Dar at the end of Ch23. The attack goes ahead. DB speaks angrily with Rochaid, apparently for being slow to attack damane, but then he would - he's losing soldiers. He muses to himself that 'today had been costly' and the comment about not wanting 'that sort of man wandering about loose' may mean channellers, or deserters/potential renegades.

 

As one of the most skilled Generals in Randland he assessed the fighting would go up a few notches. Rand's army was great for making hit and run attacks on outposts but wouldn't be able to defeat a massed army of Seanchan with their damane.

 

And he is from a country were it is common for a husband and wife to get into a fist fight over taking out the garbage. Rochaid, I think, is from Tarabon were women are given more respect by men. Not to the extreme of Shienar, TR, and Far Madding but attacking women is still frowned upon.

 

DB is musing about Tenobia wanting his head for 'treason twice over' and calling it a 'neat and thorny problem'. He doesn't seem unduly worried. Odd, that - she's his niece FHS!

 

I think it was more of "worry about the problem in front of you instead of the one yet to come." He had more immediate issues to deal with ATM. And Tebonia did exile him for having the audacity of forbidding her (she was sixteen at the time) to lead soldiers into the blight. Well, she sent him to go kill Taim and instead they both join up with the Dragon Reborn. Most would consider that treason, which would mean a death sentence in any land, and she is known for having a hot temper.

 

When he realises his tent has been attacked, he runs there. Seeing his wife, he notes that 'he knew she would die one day - they both would'. They joke with each other about the poor standard of servants they have. Bashere leaves the tent while Deira is being stitched, and muses that he 'had been expecting this, or something like this, for a long time'.

 

As the Seanchan would say "he walks the heights" being in his position as Marshal General of a borderland country and one of the five (now four) most renoun generals in Randland and the only one serving Rand at the time, it isn't unreasonable to think the shadow might get to Rand by getting to him. If he's distracted by his wife he won't be very effective to help Rand. (Look at Perrin)

[FarShainMael]

None of these is anywhere near strong enough to be called evidence, not even Min's viewing. However, taken as a group, they were enough to make me keep a very close eye on DB.

 

I agree the whole thing could be taken at least two ways. But perhaps that's imtentional.

 

I think Bashere was thinking like Lan thought right before the Battle of Caraihien when Lan called Rand out for carrying a sword. Are you saying Lan is a Darkfriend?

 

Now that would be something.. ;) No, I'm not. But can you remind me what that was about?

[Kaznen]

You said:

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

 

I was referring to when Rand was planning to hunt and kill Coulidin personally, blade to spear, Lan pretty called him a fool and childish because he can make a sword of fire, wrap Coulidin in air to make him immobile, or just kill him with the power. There was to much at stake for Rand to risk himself in that manner.

[Demiandre]

There is a saying among chess player. Instead of building up your weaknesses, improve your strenghts.

 

Why should Rand carry a sword when he can use the OP almost everywhere?

 

But I shall admit I wondered after seeing those threads about Bashere if he wasn't a Darkfriend in truth. But after rereading the books I shall say I told myself "highly unlikely". So every argument without strong evidences I take it as "highly unlikely". I go about it by the feeling

[Owayn The Traveller]

The dream or viewing showing someone holding a dagger to Rand would suit Bashere, he is fond of the using them. We've seen it at least once and he appeared to be adept with it in LoC.

The only other people I can think of that use daggers is Thom, Min and Faile. Min is certainly at his side but I don't see it. Thom also no way and he isn't really around any more. Faile also isn't around.

Of course I could be taking it all too literally.