1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

The fact that Thom "DOESN'T mention the sickness" is the clincher for you? 

That argument is impossible to refute. If he did or if he didn't, the same cornclusion results? Eek.

I don't think I understand what you mean? I'm saying he doesn't mention the sickness, and they should have mentioned the sickness because it's the only thing from the books we know for sure can be a sign of male channeling. I'm also saying it's possible that he was alluding to Mat being sick, since he started the conversation (I thought?) right after Mat went to sick, but because it wasn't said in words by Thom I don't think that's a conclusion we can definitively make.

In other words, I don't hate the scene but I agree it could have been done better. Like others, I do see some of the connections Thom may have been making in character but I don't think out of character we can say with certainty what the situation was. The writing could have been better to make it much more clear.

Also, I like your theory on the shadows being the still trapped Forsaken.

18 hours ago, Harad the White said:

Matt interacts with Thom four times in the town. First when he loses his money. Second when he goes to the Aiel body. Third when he returns to the Aiel body. Fourth when he escapes the DF. Nothing in these interactions shows any similarity to a male channeler. Next they ride horses to the farm. At the farm Matt's horse momentarily rears, but immediately calms. By coincidence there are three armed people surrounding the party at that time with arrows drawn. Nothing there in my mind.

 

Next the story of Owyn, 

"I knew another lad the same way." What same way?

"Spent half his life getting into trouble." How would he know about Matt's life, and how is that different than many teens?

"Then one day he went sour." How does that apply to Matt in the time Thom knew him?

"Animals had their hair up whenever he passed." Matt just rode a horse from the town to the farm uneventfully, and yes the horse momentarily reared when they arrived, but immediately calmed.

"Nobody could figure out what happened until he threw a rock without using his hands." That is the key, and what did Matt do that was comparable? Nothing.

"Matt's got all the signs lad."  This is a completely unjustified conclusion on Thom's part. Notice that nothing is said about physical illness.

Here's a couple of things from my perspective:

1) Mat's horse scared at least twice just in the time we see it, and I thought it was implied by Mat that the horse had been skittish for a while, as he says something like "This horse scares at every little thing".

2) Spent half his life getting into trouble could be referring to the fact Mat looted a dead body right in front of Thom, plus other unsavory acts that Thom could have heard about from Rand. It also doesn't take much of a leap to think that if Mat is willing to loot a dead body he has probably stolen other things before.

I'm not saying it was the BEST written scene, but I trust Thom when he says "I knew another lad the same way". I do think it's poor that he doesn't mention the sickness, as I think mentioning the channeling sickness would be a great connector there, but I am guessing they didn't explicitly mention it because eventually Rand will be sick too. That said, I'm guessing Thom did see Owyn get sick and maybe that's what prompted his response to Rand, conveniently right at the time Mat was puking.

10 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Or due to this being a lawless and isolated mining settlement in remote mountains the innkeeper built a secure storage area for his valuable supplies that have to last all winter (imported wine and brandy, tabac) and uses it as a room for paying guests who want security while it is empty in spring / summer?  With the door opening outward it would be rather harder to break in than out.

 

Dana appears to be rather different from the typical ambition motivated DF, more linked to Elan Morin's philosophical motives so not likely to be into casual robbing and murder (unlike the non-DF innkeeper in the book who locks R+M in and is superseded by DF Howal Gode).  They appear to have conflated 2-3 of the boys 4 DF encounters on the road to Caemlyn into this one event.

Good point about the summer storage and paying guests. I suppose I didn't think of that because when Rand says "You could use this for other paying guests" she refutes him. Plus, it doesn't look like much was stored there. I could be wrong though.

Another juicy bit: In the Episode 4 recap, it immediately switches from Thom saying "She's a Darkfriend, boy" (about the barmaid) to Liandrin. Very sneaky ?

11 minutes ago, Guire said:

Something I am trying to figure out.  It's been 8 years roughly since I did a reread.  It feels like many of the characters and institutions seem less powerful.  Not sure if this is just my memory or if its been an intentional change.  Aes Sedai, Lan, warders in general seem less competant/powerful.  Is it just me?

Having read the series again last year, nothing feels too out of place to me here? I think there are slight constraints made due to the tv adaption but nothing major.

Side note: Rewatching Episode 3, it's implied the barmaid has had a soundproof, reinforced "storage area" for quite some time, as its not like she built it just for Rand and Mat. I may be reading too much into this, but I'm guessing this means she has used it to harm/kill others before. Interesting.

In Episode 3, in the dream with Laila, the wolf is eating Laila and then she looks at Perrin and says "I know!"

Do we know why she said this or what it could be refering to? Is this something that could be related to the theory Laila had a miscarriage and/or their marriage was strained?

32 minutes ago, 2RiversFan said:

My daughter tells me that the writing in second duology gets much better, so maybe they are.

She's right! I read Six of Crows first, which is the sequel to Shadow and Bone. It's still one of my favorite YA reads and is quite unique. Then I read Shadow and Bone, expecting the same quality writing and oh boy -- I have a lot of respect for Leigh Bardugo but whatever she was doing with Shadow and Bone was not great. I barely got through the series because it was pretty rough and relied on some romance tropes I was not fond of... Also there's an entire plot line that has major plot holes and is never properly resolved ?

That said, I haven't seen the show. Is it good?

40 minutes ago, Morridin said:

the man channeling on episode 1, are we assuming that was Owen or Taim? I hope it’s Owen as Taim goes down when Rand announces himself, would love to see them work that well. 

Didn't the male channeler in the first episode get gentled? Sorry, I don't remember much about the earlier plots of Owen or Taim, but I thought they weren't gentled?

1 hour ago, RhienneAgain said:

I think the diverse casting is working out fine in the main cast, but I see your point on it being a bit jarring when you see every ethnicity in every location the characters have been in so far.

 

I wonder how the show will portray the Seanchan and Atha'an Miere?

I've been enjoying the diversity. Jordan's world always felt diverse and although there are certainly nitpicks to be had, overall the diversity in the show is working really well. Even my husband says it really gives the impression this fantasy world has a blend of cultures and he hasn't even read the books.

To that end, I'd have been more disappointed if the show only featured stereotypically Caucasion actors and actresses as I personally would have found it lore-breaking.

23 minutes ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

was this scene meant to demonstrate that she can only access her power while under extreme duress and/or anger?

That's what I interpreted it as. I feel that if she didn't have a block we would have seen that by now in other much more obvious ways. To me the healing burst of rage looked like typical early Nynaeve, like when she created balefire out of nowhere in one of the early books.

My husband has only experienced the books through me and basically doesn't know any major plot spoilers except for the obvious one in EotW. 

He is loving the show. He is surprisingly curious about everything. Sometimes he will catch me smiling at something said and start asking me questions I won't answer. He seems invested in the lore, too, especially Shadar Logoth and Mat's dagger. He asks me about the dagger every few minutes and he LOST it at the scene with Mat and the farmers...

 ?

15 minutes ago, AshennaSedai said:

As a player of Final Fantasy XIV, all I could think of during the ending scene was "Nynaeve just healer LB3'd"......

 

((In Final Fantasy XIV, when you're in a dungeon/trial, there is a meter that builds up as you do damage to enemies/bosses and it has 3 sections. When the 3rd is filled, different roles [DPS, Tank, Healer] have different skills but only one can use it before it empties. You only see Healer LB3 in the most dire of circumstances but it resurrects everyone in range [and can rez the entire party] and save from a wipe.))

Hello fellow FF14 fan!

I agree it was a very cool moment. I've been speculating Nynaeve accidentally created light and what Logain commented as the sun wasn't the weaves (which he can't see) but the "goosebumps" male channelers get in the books plus seeing everyone healed.

If nothing else, I imagine it's not common to see a wound as severe as throat laceration Healed successfully.

Episode 1:

"Come on Mat, you don't have anything left to bet." Possibly a reference to 

Episode 2:

(Mat) "They also say the Dragon will have wings, but I don't see a bloody feather." I figure this is a reference to

22 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

Alternatively, if it wasn't for the incompetent ass guiding them, they could have had plenty of time to get off the road and hide in the forest until the Whitecloaks had passed.

 

Aren't you the same person who pointed out the "terrible" writing in every other episode? Are you saying you'd rather watch scenes of Moiraine and co hiding in the woods while the Whitecloaks pass, with likely little to no contribution to the story? This would do nothing to show the confidence of Moiraine, the distastefulness of the White Cloaks, the moral quandries behind the Whitecloak leader and the Questioner (sorry, I can't think of their names atm), or the use of the 3 Oaths.

On 9/20/2021 at 11:43 PM, Rhettles said:

It was in a discussion or article that included publishers notes that I read back in the '90's.  I no longer have the details sadly.

Sorry to dredge this up, but is this perhaps what you were thinking of?

Interview: Jan, 1991

Starlog Interview (Verbatim)

William B. Thompson

A sort of slenderized Burl Ives, with the same intelligent, probing eyes, ebullient manner, and faintly mischievous grin, Jordan, now in his 40s, is exploring the realm of fantasy after successful sojourns along a number of literary paths.

Judging by the review and the sales—his pen seems as formidable as a highwayman's blade, or a sorcerer's talisman.

Jordan, who also writes under the pseudonyms "Reagan O'Neal" and "Jackson O'Reilly," recently completed the second in a planned six-book fantasy series for Tor Books collectively entitled "The Wheel of Time." The first installment, The Eye of the World, was four years in the writing. It was released in February 1990 to broad acclaim, ascending the bestseller list. Volume two, The Great Hunt, was published this fall, with the third book tentatively scheduled for December 1991.

Robert Jordan

"Actually, I prefer not to use the term 'series' because it sounds so open-ended, like the writer will continue to produce books in the same creative surroundings indefinitely," says Jordan, a life-long resident of Charleston, South Carolina. "Each book is designed to stand alone. The Great Hunt is a sequel, yes, but I've put a good deal of effort into it to ensure that whoever picks it up first will not feel left out or cheated."

Interview: Jan, 1991

Starlog Interview (Verbatim)

William B. Thompson

Jordan never intended that "The Wheel of Time" be a series. It started out as one book, with a concrete beginning and end.

Robert Jordan

"But it's hard to find space for an 18-inch thick book on your shelf. I took the outline to the publisher, saying what I had here was more like four or five or six books. What can I tell you? I signed a six-book contract."

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='rj on writing'

It's been a long time since I've ruminated over WoT plot points and theorycrafting on these forums (about 10 years!), so sure, I'll throw in my two cents ?

I never thought a show based on the Wheel of Time would see the light of day. Years and years ago we all thought it would be stuck in development hell. I mean, does anyone here remember the abysmal adaption that was "The Winter Dragon"? So when I heard Amazon, of all corporations, was taking it over, I didn't know what to think.

To see an honest attempt at adapting this series to a multi-season show is honestly amazing to me. We could have been stuck with an Eragon-quality movie, or a Winter Dragon show, or a GoT rip-off. Yes it's not a 1:1 adaption, but did anyone really think it would be? Are there people who thought someone would spend mass amounts of money to turn the (arguably) LotR derivative Eye of the World 1:1 into Season 1 when even GoT, which was quite successful, was criticized by some for being too derivative? (Side note, it IS derivative of The Dragonbone Chair, but that's a whole other conversation).

Point is, despite the changes there is a lot the show does well, especially compared to what we could have gotten. I keep telling my husband that the clothing, colors, and sets are exactly how I imagined the WoT world. Most of the characters are how I imagined them and the changes made for them seem for good reason. For those saying this could be "any fantasy series if they just swapped the names of stuff", I disagree. It's the concepts behind the Wheel, the Dragon, the Ta'veren, etc that make this work.

Lastly, we all need to remember that Eye of the World was pretty generic. I almost didn't finish it when I first picked it up. Is it any wonder they're doing their best to make changes so random viewers don't think it's "LotR Lite" while maintaining the integrity of the book series?

6 hours ago, divica said:

No matter what people think of the show it is AWFULL writing to make a character do something that should be impossible.

I don't entirely understand this. One of the things I loved about the books was that we see characters do things that for thousands of years people thought were impossible but were not.

I didn't take Nynaeve's healing in this episode to mean "hey guys, this is totally normal and you should expect to see this level of healing each episode" but rather, from how shocked every person in the cave was, I interpreted it as an amazing feat. In the books it's made clear Nynaeve does have exceptional healing powers, and with her block the only times we see her use the Power are when she or others are in immediate danger.

Side note, I thought we might see Nyn use the Power when someone attacked her in the battle, but I liked the use of it in the cave much better.

Just finished about two hours ago and I must say - wow. I didn't like the body swap, as that was one theory I was hoping wouldn't come true, but all in all it was pulled off a bit better than I expected. The book as a whole, however, was really amazing, I felt. Perhaps that was because I am so attached to it, or maybe it was the plot content, but I just really enjoyed it. I'm definitely going to miss this series.

I have the BWB, but it's not with me right now and for some reason I can't think of the answer to this question:

How did AS originally learn or know weaves back when people first channeled? Also, I forget if there are consequences to making a completely random weave you don't know, or does the weave just collapse as if you did nothing? Say for example if an AS just randomly tried weaving fire into a knot or some such; would that be completely harmless or would that potentially result in something terrible? I remember it being stated that messing with Ter'angreal could have bad consequences if you didn't know what you were doing, but nothing about channeling specifically.

Furthermore, do we know how people first discovered channeling? Everyone would have started out as Wilders, essentially, right? Doesn't this mean they would never really know they were touching the Source to begin with?

I'm a bit ashamed to ask this, being a huge fan of the series, but I guess this is something I haven't quite caught on to yet:

How does anyone in the Wheel of Time know there is a creator or other ages at all, besides the Age of Legends? I thought it was made clear in the books that there were little to no records from other ages besides the Third Age and the age of legends (which, while I'm asking - Is the Age of Legends the 2nd Age, or is it still part of the Third Age? That hasn't stuck with me, either, I'm afraid.)

On this same line of thought, how is the Pattern itself even known of? It's true that the Heroes of the Horn would know in Tel'aran'rhiod of their pasts, but even then, how did they connect that with a literal "pattern"? Furthermore, how did the original Aes Sedai know where to look for what is now refered to as the Bore? Did they sense the power emnating from there with Saidin/Saidar, or was it something else?

Thanks ~

I seem to recall seeing a quote (might have been a post) that suggested that the Dragon Soul could not be born a woman, since the gender was inherent, and that a Heroine more suitable would be chosen for the role instead, such as Amaresu.

I believe the quotes I posted above indicate the Dragon can't be born a woman because the gender is always going to be male (RJ said souls maintain their gender). How then would Ameresu (I've read this theory I think) be chosen, as a female, regardless of the fact she is a hero?

I suppose I just don't understand under what circumstances the Dragon could be a female, unless there are actually two Dragon souls, one male and one female, and only the male one is ever spun out unless the female is needed instead. In this case I could see how Rand is the male Dragon, and his soul will always be the male Dragon in every turning of the wheel in which a male Dragon is required, but there is a female soul (I'll use Ameresu as an example) which is the female Dragon as well. So there would actually be two different Dragons, not just one, but only one is spun out at any one time, and the female Dragon is only called upon if something happens to the male Dragon. Does that make sense? I don't believe it's supported by anything in the books, just something random I am using to explain my confusion.

On the other hand, under what circumstances would the WoT world need a female Dragon? If the real Dragon died, could he even be replaced, or would the Shadow "win"? (I put this in quotes because as I understand it even when Rand has been defeated/turned, the Shadow has not yet won).

I am really confused about something that was mentioned earlier in this thread and in another thread about the Dragon always being male and if it is possible for the Dragon to ever be a female. Hopefully this is an acceptable place to post a question about a quote by RJ:

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

The bold parts indicate where I am getting confused; I feel as if they contradict themselves. RJ says yes it is possible for a different female soul to take the role of Dragon, and that someone other than Rand's soul could be the reborn soul of the Dragon. However, in the next section he contradicts this by saying it has to always be the same soul. There is another quote I found on another thread where RJ supposedly says:

If the Wheel needs a female Dragon, then it would weave in *insert female dragon name here*.

This, too, seems to contradict with the souls not changing gender and such. Basically, how is it possible for there to be a female Dragon if a) souls always maintain their same gender and b) it's the same soul every time. To me this means Rand's soul (or Lews, or any previosu Dragon) is ALWAYS going to be the soul of the next Dragon, and so on, and since souls maintain genders, it is impossible for there to be a female Dragon.

If someone could please clear this up for me and make me see the Light, it'd be much appreciated!

I feel really stupid for not knowing this but...

Why did Sheriam Sedai walk into the Novices' quarters in TDR, right after the girls caught the Greyman? She is black ajah, but what was she doing there? Coming to make sure the assassins did their job?

I don't recall power wrought armor ever being mentioned in the series. I assume it doesn't exist? If not, why? The weapons made with the Power are unbreakable yes, so why not make armor too?

Thanks guys!

I suppose it would be a bit odd to have a deer come running out channeling balefire... But of course channeling and just sensing the one power are two different things ^^;

I was confused about the black dogs in The Dragon Reborn only because they didn't quite sound like darkhounds, but then I didn't know why normal dogs would be attacking Rand randomly.

Does Rand know about Perrin's connection with the wolves? Or, rather, who does know about it?

How does Forkroot cut a channeler off from the One Power? Does it work on males too?

What is the deal with the black dogs in The Dragon Reborn, chapter 9, 'Jahara' (I think that's the chapter, I don't have my book with me atm)

Lastly, sort of an odd one, can animals touch the One Power or is this a definite no? I admit I've not seen it mentioned in the books but I'm just randomly curious.

Thanks!