Do we have an accurate count of how many heroes there are?

the best I can recall is a few dozen

I have heard some mayan cities grew so large, food suppliers couldnt reach the center... (too far to travel)

 

Ingtar describes the losses of populations in the (begining? of) Hunt

whole nations used to exist, that disappeared and the countries that exist are more empty than full, remember the trip from elanyes lands to camlyn, boys travel from four kings, egwene and perrin on caralain grass, etc. These places should be bustling, good soil, even along rivers, recall the girls traveling to salidar and from tar valon to tear

well most of the routes that the girls traveled are along borders, or unclaimed land where banditry was common.

I do not doubt that the 'unclaimed' lands have a lower population than they should, but they are probably amply populated. Just are not a nation

"She's channeling saidin." - In response to Aran'gar seizing saidin during the Cleansing of Saidin

I also like the follow up to that one where the AM goes to the rebel AS hall and tells them to remember that guys name and his sacrafice

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the trolloc wars involved genocide in captured territories, but I doubt that would have much effect on current populations.

I am pretty sure the trollocs followed a 100% kill mentality, the issues with trollocs would be to turn their ferocity onto armed targets to smash them before taking out the weak

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

 

What evidence do we have for a 'public relations hole' before the trolloc wars? Aes Sedai ruled, Aes Sedai approved monarchs, Aes Sedai organised the Compact... And, from what we know, Manetheren's people gladly fought for their Aes Sedai queen.

I would argue that they fought more for their King

It's actually true. They came close to uniting the land, and did their best to try to prod the various cultures of Randland towards progress, but largely because their success was only possible through manipulation, they were never able to pull it off, and much of the progress they did foster was all too easily undermined for the same reason. Sure, the manipulations of the Shadow played their role, but they would never have been able to be as successful in undermining the good works of the Aes Sedai if the Aes Sedai were able to be open and gain overt consensus.

 

You toss aside the Trolloc Wars which lasted some 350 years as if it is an after thought with AS manipulations being the main cause. The facts are plain, they united the land and fostered significant rebuilding and cultural growth. The Shadow was the one who tore that down. There is not a shred of evidence that states the recovery stalled or was stunted due to AS manipulations. Would love to see what you are basing these statements on?

actually pre Hawkwing I think the AS manipulating reached its peak and spread, most notable being cairhein. Then Hawkwing came and 'cut their scheming short'

nobility is also a thing that causes stagnation, they love their power and like to see others at their beck and call. Nobility works to suppress others

If the Talisman of Growing is only a "medium" for the continuous connection of Saidin to the Ways, then I can see how the taint could seep into the ways. But if it is just a spark for a one-time weave, then the corruption of the ways needs another explanation.

even if it is a one time deal, after the breaking they grew many many more Ways so it could be possible that the building of Ways is what did it

 

But if it is a one-time affair, then evey Saidin weave pre-cleansing is corrupt or will corrupt over time. Is this how this works in the books?

every saidin weave is a little corrupt I believe, and the cumulative effect of growing so many Ways is that the corruption due to the taint became the black wind

If the Talisman of Growing is only a "medium" for the continuous connection of Saidin to the Ways, then I can see how the taint could seep into the ways. But if it is just a spark for a one-time weave, then the corruption of the ways needs another explanation.

even if it is a one time deal, after the breaking they grew many many more Ways so it could be possible that the building of Ways is what did it

does mat know about the imperial family being decimated?

No Setalle was telling Mat about how it was like knowing that there were your favorite cookies there, but you couldn't have any more. I don't have a quote, but i would appreciate one.

well using the cookie analogy

burning out = knowing the cookies are there, but not seeing them and knowing you can't have any

stilling = seeing the cookies are there, but not being able to have any... even though its right in front of you

IIRC Siuan and Leanne were able to hold Moggy with the adam when they were stilled. Not sure if they were able to weave the OP through her but if they did then it brings out a possibility for the Seachan to continue to use Suldam and Damne. Spark the Suldam then still her and let her do her job. This way they not have to worry about the Suldam channelling.

Siuan and Leane were lucky it would seem. When Setalle Anan wore an a'dam with Joline back in book 7 I think but may have been 8? they both had the adverse reaction.

Furthermore, Siuan and Leane weren't able to use it to cause pain or to weave the OP, essentially it served no better purpose than it had before i.e. stopping the damane from channeling (although I suppose it allowed her to move).

thats because there is a difference between burning out (Setalle) and stilling (Leane Siuan).

Siuan and Leane were stilled, then healed. When they were stilled, they were returned to "prime, child-bearing age". Since they have been healed, they will slow again, albeit to a lesser extend due to their relative weakness in the Power.

 

Question: does this provide a key to channeler's immortality? Could repeated stilling and healing continually restore channelers to their prime, granting them (with slowing) another 2-3 hundred years? No that anyone would choose to do it, anyway, but the thought just occured to me.

I doubt it. I think the age their returned too is relative to where they where in their channelling lifespan

Was it ever explained how rhuidean was protected? Like the barrier that kept people from entering too many times and forbade entering in TAR? It would have to be an object since the standing flows no longer work right?

 

Ward can survive the people who created them, like the wards on Callandor did.

was the barrier why people couldnt enter too many times or was it the aiel traditions that did

Sorry if this has topic has been exhausted already, but i just wanted to put in my 2 cents on the above. So i guess he was known as the Dragon before the battle with the shadow. But to them I doubt the "Dragon" meant Champion of light. Since they didn't know who the dark one was, they likely didn't know that there was a champion reborn to fight him in each age. It's only since LTT and his title that the term Dragon came to describe the Light's champion. At some point it will be forgotten, along with the knowledge of the DO.

 

Correct, LTT was the Dragon and it was a political "nickname" I believe. No connection to the CoL.

 

But wasn't the Dragon Reborn always there at the end of an Age? They lost that knowledge?

 

Anyway, another question: Has it ever been explained why channelers with the spark die without a teacher? Like what does the teacher teach them that they don't learn on their own? I know the illness comes closer and closer to the moment of channeling until they happen at the same time, but what does a teacher do to stop that? Just something else that's always bothered me.

I think its more the fact they teach control over it

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai.

my problem with Egwenes enemy is that she uses 'presumed' authority to take out masaana, which is completely rediculous in my books. Also for all the buildup about how the collar effects her (mentally), I find it strange that she nearly instantly becomes calm and composed when one is put on her.

 

See Randsc, this is the type of stuff I go off against.

 

First, regarding how Egwene "nearly instantly becomes calm". I think you need to read it again... I'll help...

 

Egwene barely noticed. She stood, stiff, a tide of panicked thoughts flooding her mind. She was trapped again! She could not stand it. She would die before she allowed this to happen. Images flashed in her head. Trapped in a room, unable to move more than a few feet without being overcome by the a'dam. Treated like an animal, a creeping sense that she would eventually break, would eventually become exactly what they wanted her to be.

Oh, Light. She could not suffer this again. Not this.

 

"Tell those above to withdraw," Mesaana was saying to Alviarin, her voice calm. Egwene barely registered the words. "Fools they are, and their showing here was pathetic. Punishments will be administered."

 

This was how Moghedien had been captured by Nynaeve and Elayne. She was kept captive, forced to do as they demanded. Egwene would suffer the same! Indeed, Mesaana would probably use Compulsion on her. The White Tower would be fully in the hands of the Forsaken.

The emotions welled up. Egwene found herself clawing at the collar, which got a look of amusement from Mesaana as Alviarin vanished to relay her order.

This could not be happening. It was a nightmare. A—

You are Aes Sedai. A quiet piece of her whispered the words, yet for all their softness, they were strong. And they were deep within her. The voice was deeper than the terror and fear.

 

"Now," Mesaana said. "We will speak of the dreamspike. Where might I find it?"

An Aes Sedai is calmness, an Aes Sedai is control, regardless of the situation. Egwene lowered her hands from the collar. She had not gone through the testing, and she had not planned to. But if she had, what if she had been

forced to face a situation like this? Would she have broken? Proven herself unworthy of the mantle she claimed to carry?

"Not speaking, I see," Mesaana said. "Well, that can be changed. These a'dam. Such lovely devices. Semirhage was so delightfully wonderful in bringing them to my attention, even if she did so accidentally. Pity she died before I could place one on her neck."

Pain shot through Egwene's body, like fire beneath her skin. Her eyes watered from it.

But she had suffered pain before, and laughed while being beaten. She had been captive before, in the White Tower itself, and captivity had not stopped her.

But this is different! The larger part of her was terrified. This is the a'dam! I cannot withstand it!

An Aes Sedai must, the quiet piece of her replied. An Aes Sedai can suffer all things, for only then can she be truly a servant of all.

"Now," Mesaana said. "Tell me where you have hidden the device."

Egwene controlled her fear. It was not easy. Light, but it was hard! But she did it. Her face became calm. She defied the a'dam by not giving it power over her.

Mesaana hesitated, frowning. She shook the leash, and more pain flooded Egwene.

She made it vanish. "It occurs to me, Mesaana," Egwene said calmly, "that Moghedien made a mistake. She accepted the a'dam!'

"What are you—"

"In this place, an a'dam is as meaningless as the weaves it prevents," Egwene said. "It is only a piece of metal. And it only will stop you if you accept that it will." The a'dam unlocked and fell free of her neck.

 

So you've got the freakout and the clawing at the neck, which is actually pretty pronounced. There's a bit of conversation going on while she's doing it too, so you can't claim that it's just a very condensed in-head thought process. Alviarin even smugly enjoys it for a moment. And notice Egwene stops freaking after saying "nightmare", I took as she accidentally reminding herself where she was, and that she could, as she ultimately does, control this situation if she can be calm. And then she realizes she MUST be calm or she doesn't have a right to call herself Aes Sedai. So the two main things she's been training for through most of the series ultimately allows her to overcome her Achilles heel. That's kinda what character development is about.

 

Now, as for her 'presumed' authority... well we need to read a bit more of ToM to remind us of how that went.

yes but the picture painted about egwene about the seanchan is about how terrible, and PST stricken she is. That is a very brief reaction, for an event that terrified her (apparently until recently before this). I hope that I am getting my view on this across properly, but we see how she hates the collar, and how that event has shaped her life and how she continually refers back to it. Then when it happens again its as if it goes 1 2 3 4 5 nightmare, wait I am ok with this and can change it here. It doesnt seem realistic to me

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai.

my problem with Egwenes enemy is that she uses 'presumed' authority to take out masaana, which is completely rediculous in my books. Also for all the buildup about how the collar effects her (mentally), I find it strange that she nearly instantly becomes calm and composed when one is put on her.

 

1. False. Her end goal as evidenced by her inner thoughts about the responsibility she bears is to face the Shadow and reform the WT. Just one example of many...

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

You can argue that she is misguided in thinking AS are best equipped to do this but that is a different conversation entirely. As for continued channeling domination Egwene claims flat out those days are gone and with the channeling exchange program has placed everyone on equal ground. Not exactly the actions of someone who wants to ensure "domination". If you truly believe these things back them up with quotes as I have done instead of tossing hyperbole about. Again she has done more to positively change the WT in her short time than anyone since the Trolloc Wars.

In your quote I noticed a number of things 1) the word tie the monarchs to the White Tower, 2) she assumes they will automatically support her

I will focus on 2 since I have the most coherent thoughts on that one

that is one of my major irritating points when it comes to egwene, she automatically assumes she is right, and that people will follow her.

1 You act as if she is a tyrant who wants power for powers sake and world domination.

 

2 As for the self centered part we have already provided multiple quotes in this thread showing her to be introspective, admitting to her mistakes/work towards changing them and express thanks and gratitude for her teachers/mentors.

1) No she is focused on gathering power, for the continued world domination of channelling by the WT

2) I am afraid I missed those quotes, could you please quote the bit where she apologizes to nynaeve for treating her badly? As for the respect part, it is obvious she only respects her mentors after she has taken all she wants from them, not before (as shown by the WO training deal, because IMO she shows a huge lack of respect for the WO's when she is sneaking around in TAR)

Does that sound like somebody who's just "questioning" him? Who have even considered listening to him at all?

 

Sure, she goes to FoM to discuss it with him, but not with the intentions of listening to him.

 

It's basically the same as to enter a discussion with another person saying "If you do not submit to my opinion, I will hit you in the face"

 

So we are condemning her for something that could potentially happen in the future? Why don't we wait it out and see how the meeting goes. If she listens to Rand, he gives Egwene a concrete plan from whatever Min finds out and Egwene still decides to try to come against him with force then I will be right there with you in shouting her down.

you have to admit though that from what we see in her head that she is as stacked against rand as she can without being red. (which is kind of ironic since i can't recall her being offered the red during the uniting the tower dealy)

How can there be a One Power when there are apparently more than one? (I'm referring to the True Power here). I can't say why, but this has been nagging at me lately.

 

it's the 'one power' that drives creation. The true power stems from a source outside of creation (aka The Dark One).

 

Or it's just a name.

this except that the OP can be filtered through the DO which creates the TP which is seriously more addictive. Etc

actually he does have a plan (his old one) so worst comes to worst he can use that again. But what he did was cleverly lit a fire under the AS to get geared up for TG.

 

Except we have his thoughts that the plan was flawed and he can't do it the same way. Unless Min has figured it out, there is no plan...

 

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

no I was just pointing out that if things where at the absolute worst, and they didnt find the key to fixing it, he could do another temp fix like he did before

No but what you did say is "all have played their roles" as if their job is done. We know this to not be the case. At some point you need to set your peevish fantasies aside. Far better for Rand to be open about what he is doing and discuss his course of action so everyone is on the same page. Yes, we know...Eg might not be directly involved with fixing the prison. That changes nothing.

 

Why should Rand discuss his plans on breaking the seals and resealing the DO with Egwene if she is not going to play any role in the process? To massage her ego? Or because she is the "watcher of the seals"?

 

At FOM he will tell everyone not just Egwene what to do in the meantime when he is resealing the DO.

 

there is no role.

 

she asked him what his plans and he flat out refused to share them. so there is no role. sometimes it helps if you actually read that passage without rand al thor fanboy goggles

 

 

ofcourse we the reader know the truth. he has no plan. apart from smashing the seals and begging min for some clue

actually he does have a plan (his old one) so worst comes to worst he can use that again. But what he did was cleverly lit a fire under the AS to get geared up for TG.

The reason why it's a bad idea for Egwene to oppose Rand on this is because it's creating a conflict where there does not neccesarily need to be one. And conflict among the forces of the light is the last thing that we want at this point in the story. She should wait and see whether there is a need to oppose him, before deciding to do so.

 

Come now MA, you can not seriously believe Rand showed up and said we will discuss things at FoM in good faith. She said we must plan and he brushed her off. He purposely antaganized her into that course of action. We just don't know all the specifics of why yet.

you know I feel he didnt antagonize her so much, as inform her that he is willing to meet with her, the subject of the meeting, and some of what he plans to do. It was quite diplomatically genious. Especially since it lit a fire under the AS's butt to actually get geared up for TG

Egwene's bullying is far worse than Nynaeve's. Whenever Nyneave browbeats someone into doing something it's generally because she cares about them and genuinely believes it's the right thing to do. Egwene bullies people in order to cover her own ass, like her unforgiveable treatment of Nynaeve in T'A'R.

 

That was without a doubt a low point, she was absolutely right in what she was telling Nynaeve but the circumstances were pretty bad. Strangely Nyanave doesn't seem to hold it against her in the slightest but this is one the stand outs for the people that dislike Egwene.

 

One question though when you say she "bullies people in order to cover her own ass" that makes it sound as if it's a regular thing. I can't recall any other scenario like that. Her and Nynaeve actually mirror each other with the young wisdom/amyrlin using any means necessary to succeed.

this one isnt quite the same.

but when she blackmails the AS into swearing binding oaths to her, she effectively uses them to cover her own ass