Your point about his lack of control early on is well taken, though. Even in Far Madding, he apparently had to kill Rand physically while Rand was caught in the vision, so that does raise a question as to the effectiveness of the trap from TGH.

 

Well, his illusion of Torval and Gedwyn was not really a trap—just a distraction, which Rand didn't buy because he had seen the bodies in the attic.

I wonder if this means that Fain was the one who sent the trollocs through the ways while masquerading as whoever.

How do you fight the shadow without giving up the way of the leaf?

 

The same way the Tinkers have always fought the Shadow, by trusting in the Pattern, you know, kinda like Moiraine does when attempting to help and guide Rand as Dragon Reborn. And I don't doubt that keeping to the Way as an active Sedai, at least as a Green or a Blue or a Red, would be hard, but it shouldn't be that hard for Yellows or Browns, or even Whites if they sequestered themselves in the Tower to do logic proofs all day every day for 300 years, which it appears that most of them do.

there are many essential non front line positions that would be required. Medic, message relays, logistics. And some front line ones that may not require actual combat, scout, vanguard defence (putting a physical barrier between enemy and ally), moving troops.

No doubt that's true, Terez, but that's still kinda a big deal. Aside from the Aiel's history revealed in the glass columns, Aram's the only other Tinker we see abandon the Way of the Leaf, and it was a pretty big deal for him, and indeed for the Aiel as well. People are supposed to join the Way, not abandon it. And I don't see anything about being an Aes Sedai that requires one to abandon the Way of the Leaf. It would have been more interesting to see an Aes Sedai that did follow the Way, instead of an Aes Sedai that used to before she shawled, but no longer does.

Its a big deal for aram because his grandparents disowned him. Likely the AS felt the same thing when she was dropped off at the WT, especially considering the tinkers disdain for larger settlements

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.

they gain the eye slipping past them thing, being considered higher up in the DF ranks (likely)

other than that it would just be whispered promises and likely people wanting the fast track up the ranks.

 

Heavy price, if I recall correctly their souls get taking out of the rebirth pool and "eaten" by he DO.

where do we learn that?

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.

they gain the eye slipping past them thing, being considered higher up in the DF ranks (likely)

other than that it would just be whispered promises and likely people wanting the fast track up the ranks.

Yes, Birgitte does attribute her memory loss to the Pattern trying to enforce it's "no previous-life memories" rule. I don't consider this further proof of anything, though, because it's possible she's wrong. It could be a result of being a girl and bonded as a warder to another girl, for all we know. I don't believe that, just throwing it out there as a possible alternative explanation. It may be that the Pattern doesn't have a specific "no previous-life memories" rule, and people don't tend to remember their previous lives because of the specifics about how they're reborn. And I know that Tel aran'Rhiod isn't the normal waiting room for normal souls waiting to be reborn, that's why I called it, "the waiting room for special souls." Which it is, among other things.

it probably isn't a specific rule, but rather a side effect of becoming (essentially) mortal

How did Masema recognize Faile before she and Cha Faile put an end to him in TGS? I do not recall them meeting previously or any reference to the two of them having met before his conversion to the Prophet but when she step into the clearing Masema knows her name. Is this a mistake or a clue as to something else going on behind the scenes? Maybe insight as to Masema's reasons for wanting to stay in the West rather than heading directly to Rand? Grasping at straws but it really stuck out in the latest read.

I think masema wasn't such a huge fool to not know everything about Perrin that there is to know before plotting against him. The Aes Sedai travelling with Perrin, at least one is BA (and possibly the shiny dragon, since the response to a question was (in effect), why do you think 'he' was male). And they where meeting with Masema, who hates the OP except when the 'dragon' uses it

 

Not really sure of the point you are making in this post. Undoubtedly, Masema would know the name and that "Faile" is Perrin's wife. Are you suggesting Masema himself went and spied Perrin's camp before their first personal encounter? If not, how would any of that impact Masema's ability to instantly recognize the woman stepping into the clearing as Perrin's wife?

 

I hope you are on to something, I want it to be a clue as to Masema's behind the scenes wheelings and dealings.

my point is that the AS kept going into masemas camp to meet with him, and that they could have informed him of stuff like that, in effect being masemas handlers

How did Masema recognize Faile before she and Cha Faile put an end to him in TGS? I do not recall them meeting previously or any reference to the two of them having met before his conversion to the Prophet but when she step into the clearing Masema knows her name. Is this a mistake or a clue as to something else going on behind the scenes? Maybe insight as to Masema's reasons for wanting to stay in the West rather than heading directly to Rand? Grasping at straws but it really stuck out in the latest read.

I think masema wasn't such a huge fool to not know everything about Perrin that there is to know before plotting against him. The Aes Sedai travelling with Perrin, at least one is BA (and possibly the shiny dragon, since the response to a question was (in effect), why do you think 'he' was male). And they where meeting with Masema, who hates the OP except when the 'dragon' uses it

In a Path of Daggers, the Maidens beat Rand for going to battle without them (Sammael + Seanchan campaign).

 

Rand has a shirt over his head and min cries out for help when they start to beat him. Any reason why Rand did not embrace the source and lash out? At this point he is sick with the dizzyness, but I would have expected him to try initally as it shouldnt be initially know by him that its maidens attacking him.

he may have we dont know, it was from mins PoV

Rand and Mat never got theirs back from Bayle Domon, Perrin might have his but Moiraine had everything they owned burned at the start of TGH so the coin probably got lost then.

 

It was actually Thom who took their coins in Whitebridge before taking the Fade's attention to allow Rand and Mat to escape. Bayle gave them back their coins at Whitebridge for keeping his crew entertained, and preventing a mutiny.

Bayle gave them coins, but not the tar valon mark that moraine gave them

12. Two Aes Sedai - Liandrin and we don't know who else. Others could have been disguised better.

I thought the other one was Alviarin, since she asked so many pointed questions about the boys on the trip back to the WT that Nynaeve kicked her out of the tent.

I don't see why you would find that odd. There are others that aren't recognizable, like the Illianer noblewoman. We haven't met any of those.

If I read this right, have we a good idea of who the Sea Folk man was (it was a man, wasn't it?)?

 

Because I can only think of Zaida as a possible DF, and that only because we know she has to lose her position in some way.

Bors refers to the seafolk guy as a he.

but I think it strange the the lion head spurs representing a higher rank is more description and in a nation that is more developed (story-wise) than the seafolk or even tear.

Any mentions in BWB or elsewhere of the Forsaken having children?

Good question! That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

 

I don't remember that it specifically states one way or another, but I imagine that in AoL, no one reproduces unless they want to(with advanced science and OP use being what it is). If the Forsaken are anything, they're selfish. Since parenting is an unselfish act involving sacrifice and dedication, I don't think any of the Forsaken would have even considered it.

Actually, even parents can be selfish.

Not sure about the ones that want to being the only ones that reproduced in Age of Legends.

 

I guess the poster was asking whether any of the Forsaken gave birth to children. There might have been some chance for each of them; either before they turned to the Shadow.

Slight chance of any of them raising the children (after turning to the Shadow). Tough Mesaana might have been most likely of the females; and Ishamael of the males.

balthamel is most likely of the male, he was the womanizer, accidents do happen.

It doesn't matter; we have no reason to believe he wasn't in the Guard before then. The only other possibility we know of is Lord Comar, but he supposedly left the Guard because he got caught cheating at dice, and we don't know when that happened.

I just find it odd we can identify almost everyone Bors saw in that scene easily but this one is unknown to me

http://encyclopaedia...ved_hanlon.html

thank you Terez, once again you come to the rescue

EDIT:

by that encyclopedia I dont think it can be Hanlon, he was only a white lion as far as I can tell, and the golden spurs incident was long before Rahvin set up camp in andor

It was probably Daved Hanlon a.k.a. Doilon Mellar, who became captain of Rahvin's White Lions.

I thought he wasn't in the Andoran military until after Rahvin came to power, or at least wasnt a ranking officer. What book do we first see him in anyways?

from tGH darkfriend social

"a glimpse of golden lion-head spurs, worn only by high officers in the Andoran Queen's Guards."

 

do we know who this is?

 

my first thought was Gareth, because we know of no one else who would be of sufficient rank at the time

 

Considering how badly Morgase has been screwed over by the pattern so far, it will be Tallanvor.

I dont think that Lieutenant would be high enough for the spurs.... Have we heard of any calvalry captain from Andor

from tGH darkfriend social

"a glimpse of golden lion-head spurs, worn only by high officers in the Andoran Queen's Guards."

do we know who this is?

my first thought was Gareth, because we know of no one else who would be of sufficient rank at the time

Hey! That's plagiarism.

 

I don't know, it's pretty common (in literature in particular) to assume one can tell a person's experience from the cast of his eyes. I've never done so IRL that I can recall, but I do automatically know whether I'm going to like someone from the look on their face, so... Perhaps.

the 1000 yard stare? Its the only one I have heard of

For sheer brilliance in conveying meaning with what is, on the face of it, a useless/duh argument:

 

Dyelin and Elayne in ToM:

 

D: "The Ciarhienin are a proud people. To think of themselves living conquered beneath Andor's Crown...."

E: "They lived beneath Rand's power."

D: "With all due respect, Elayne,"Dyelin said. "He is the Dragon Reborn. You are not."

I especially like scenes like this. It shows that she does not just see him as the DR which almost everyone else does.

Another good one was in EotW when Rand sees Morgase and thinks of how her situation would be if she was a village girl

(although he claims his psyche is more stable this time around, owing in large to Tam's influence).

I think saying he is more stable this time is wrong, that makes LTT sound insane or at least off his rocker.

I think that it is the fact Rand is more grounded this time when compared to the last that is the main difference

What's considered an AMoL spoiler anyways? As the book hasn't come out.

some content spoilers have been released, I think it was the jacket description. Not sure if thats the right wording for it though

Just wanted to say, to the guys comparing the Aiel and their wars. Remember, War between clans, the greatest honor came from touching not killing right? I bet with all the raids and wars in the Waste, not many people died. Sure they've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, but not killing too often.

 

But that honor is the most difficult to achieve and the rarest kind. So, more people were killed in Aiel fighting than you believe.

 

I've with you on the most difficult to achieve, but where did you get the rarest kind part?

 

I don't remember the exact quote; but I think it was part of explaining ji'e'toh to Moiraine and Egwene in TSR.

I would almost think killing would be the rarest, since there does not seem to be full on wars among the aiel but rather small skirmishes, during which one clan will try to prove superiority by capturing not killing

Just wanted to say, to the guys comparing the Aiel and their wars. Remember, War between clans, the greatest honor came from touching not killing right? I bet with all the raids and wars in the Waste, not many people died. Sure they've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, but not killing too often.

 

But that honor is the most difficult to achieve and the rarest kind. So, more people were killed in Aiel fighting than you believe.

also the multiple wives option gave more flexibility when it comes to sustaining/growing the population

As for who died because of Perrin, Plently of unnamed characters died due to his mistakes and unwillingness to step up. I'm thinking in the Two River's battles, and later with his Faiel kidnapping. He did pretty damn good saving Rand from the sisters, I don't think any people died because of him then, but he took command, and told people what to do (first time).

in every battle people on both sides die. During times of battle / pre battle preparations Perrin steps up remarkably, it is during the down time where he tries to recede into the furniture and not lead.