Brando talks more about Wheel of Time S2 and his finale reaction on his podcast here (21:39 onwards):

4 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I think Sanderson thinks he wants to stay "relevant" in regards to WOT, and has decided that being the opposing voice to the show is the best way to sell more of his own books. I also think, before he goes questioning other peoples writing he should really look at his own.

It's totally reasonable to dislike his novels for whatever reasons, but the rest of your comment was completely unhinged IMO.

I don't think Brandon Sanderson is hurting for book sales or money or relevance. Don't be so quick to presume that anyone who doesn't like the show has some kind of insidious malicious agenda without any evidence whatsoever, lol.

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Is there a chance somebody pious put up a summary somewhere?

I used OpenAI Whisper to get a text transcript of the audio, did some Find and Replace for names, and had GPT-4 summarise part by part. Totally no guarantees that it's a good summary.

1. Adaptation Choices: They discuss the difficulty of adapting Min's visions and Perrin's ability to smell emotions from the books to the TV format, generally approving of the changes. 

2. Character Depth: The commentators are impressed by the villains in the TV adaptation, especially the Forsaken, saying that the actors bring a depth to the characters that even exceeds that in the books.

3. Narrative Choices: They discuss changes such as Moiraine losing her powers and Rand leaving his friends, considering whether these adaptational choices served the story well or not. The opinions are divided. They also talk about how the series fast-forwards certain events or brings forward developments from the books to fit the pacing of a TV show.

4. Visual Effects and Set Design: Generally, they praise the set design and visual effects but note some areas where they could be improved. They particularly liked the set design of Falme.

5. Character Arcs: They feel that some characters like Lan and Moiraine had less compelling storylines this season, especially when compared to the books.

6. Egwene and Nynaeve: Both commentators seem to agree that the Egwene-Nynaeve storyline is the strongest of the season and closest to the books.

7. Story Pacing: The episode appears to start strongly, especially after what they feel was a more setup-heavy prior episode. They discuss the pacing in the context of various character arcs and how the changes affect the show's momentum.

8. Late-Series Inclusions: They notice that some elements from later in the book series have been brought forward to appear earlier in the TV series, which they generally appreciate.

9. Comparison to Books: They engage in a lot of comparison between the books and the TV series, discussing the strength and weaknesses of both mediums. For instance, they feel Fain is a weaker character in the books but has more potential in the series.

10. Personal Bias: One of the commentators mentions that they have read all the scripts but have not watched the entire season, indicating that their reactions are influenced by their knowledge of the original story.

11. Expectations and Predictions: Throughout the discussion, there are moments where the commentators predict what might happen next or how certain decisions might affect future episodes.

12. Nuanced Opinions: The commentators don't unanimously agree or disagree on many points, demonstrating the complex feelings fans can have towards adaptations of beloved series.

### Disagreements about Rand's Skills
- The commentators are split on Rand’s skills as a swordsman. Some think it’s unbelievable for him to beat a blademaster given his limited training. Others counter that he is taught by the world’s best swordsman, and being ta’veren also contributes to his extraordinary abilities.
 

### Questions about Character Arcs
- A major concern is the unclear character arcs for the season, particularly for Rand and Moraine. The commentators feel that the TV adaptation hasn’t given Rand's character the kind of narrative arc seen in the books, where his journey is intricately tied to learning from others and realizing his limitations.
  
### Comparison to Book Plot Points
- One commentator believes the TV show departs significantly from the book, notably in how Egwene frees herself, undermining the recurring theme of interdependence among the main characters.
  
### Issues with Adaptation Choices
- There are complaints about Matt using the dagger from Shadar Logoth. In the book series, the dagger has malevolent influences, and using it as a weapon contradicts the theme of Matt's character arc, according to the commentators.
  
### Pacing and Themes
- The commentators feel that the TV show often prioritizes cool scenes over thematic integrity and consistent character arcs. This is especially a concern going into adaptations of future books, where themes like self-sacrifice are pivotal.

### Technical Points
- Questions arise about the mechanics of channeling over distances and line-of-sight, as well as the realism of battlefield tactics.

### General Observations
- There are commendations for certain elements, like the portrayal of the Aiel, the use of crossbows, and the casting in general.
  
### Concerns for Future Seasons
- The commentators hope that future seasons will focus more on cohesive story arcs and maintaining the core themes of the series.

### Meta-Comments
- There's also some discussion about whether the show's choices align with themes and metaphysics set by the original books and whether Brandon Sanderson's own interpretation carries weight.

Overall, the commentators have a mixed reaction to the finale. They appreciate some of the adaptation choices but have significant reservations about the clarity of character arcs and thematic fidelity.

### Pacing and Episode Count
- The commentators believe the season needed more episodes to cover all the essential elements and arcs.

### Character Arcs and Development
- The commentators appreciate the addition of Moiraine's family drama but feel it comes at the cost of time that could have been better spent on other central characters.
- They question the decisions for some characters, such as why Elayne heals Rand when Nynaeve, a known healer, is there.
- They criticize the treatment of Uno's character, as he appears to have been given a special role but not enough context.
- They argue that characters like Perrin and Egwene have arcs that feel underdeveloped or not well justified.

### Story and Adaptation
- They bring up the issue that viewers unfamiliar with the books might be confused by the storytelling.
- There is dissatisfaction that certain events from the books were not adapted in a way that pays off in the TV series, like some specific scenes involving Rand and Ishamael.

### Philosophical Depth
- The commentators wish the show had presented a more defined philosophical conflict, particularly between Rand and Ishamael.
  
### Special Effects and Mechanics
- There are mixed feelings about the special effects, specifically around channeling.
- The commentators point out inconsistencies with the "rules" of the world, like how the characters' abilities seem to change without explanation.

### Overall
- While the commentators feel that Season 2 is a step up from Season 1, they still think the finale falls short in several areas, mainly due to pacing and underdeveloped character arcs.

Throughout the discussion, the commentators struggle with separating their book knowledge from their viewing experience, acknowledging that this might influence their opinions on the show's execution.

### Characters and Plot:
1. The reviewers criticize the lack of importance and agency given to several characters like Matt, Elayne, and Nynaeve, suggesting that their roles could have been eliminated without affecting the storyline.
2. They argue that Rand didn't need to be there for the story to proceed, emphasizing that Egwene seemed to be doing all the hard work.
3. They question the logic and emotional payoff of some scenes, like how Elayne climbs the tower with an arrow in her knee and how Perrin's shield and actions seemed inconsequential.

### Setup and Payoff:
1. They discuss the lack of build-up and payoff, especially around the horn. They argue that if the horn is so crucial, then its actual use and the events surrounding it needed more weight in the narrative.
2. While they praise the casting and performances, they feel that many of the character arcs did not come full circle or had weak endings, thereby affecting their overall enjoyment of the series.

### Directing and Cinematography:
1. They praise the direction in terms of extracting good performances from the actors but criticize the cinematography for lacking engaging shots.
  
### Thematic Concerns:
1. They discuss how the show differs from the books and how it can affect enjoyment based on whether one has read the books or not.
2. They mention that season two was much better than season one but still felt the finale was weaker than they had hoped.

### Metaphysical Aspects:
1. They debate the dagger's treatment, saying that it was inconsistent with the show's internal logic and metaphysics. They discuss how Matt’s temptation to touch the dagger didn't make sense in the show's context, especially compared to the books.
2. Questions are raised about the horn of Valere and how it's opened, leading to further questions about the show's internal logic.

### General Verdict:
1. Overall, they agree that the season was good and would recommend it to others, particularly those who haven't read the books. However, they feel the finale failed to tie together important narrative and thematic elements effectively, leading to a "shaky land."

In summary, the reviewers feel that while the season had high points, particularly in terms of performances and character development, it lacked in terms of narrative coherency, payoff, and thematic resonance, especially in the finale.

### Story Elements and Adaptation
- The reviewers discuss the efficacy of introducing elements like the heroes and the Ashanderei, noting that while these things may make book readers happy, they don't always serve the show's narrative.
  
- There's a consensus that the show might not be setting up key elements well. For example, the horn's significance didn't come across as essential in the show as it is in the books.

### Characters and Themes
- The characters and their thematic arcs are discussed. They mention that Rand, in book three, learns he needs his friends and wish the show had built to that realization more effectively.
  
- Elan is discussed in relation to Lanfear's betrayal, highlighting that the show didn't build enough around these relationships, leading to a somewhat hollow emotional impact.

### Ta'veren and Show Mechanics
- There is an extended conversation about the concept of "Ta'veren" — how much of the events are driven by fate versus the characters' own choices. Some believe Ta'veren is like plot armor that helps characters survive, while others argue it only manipulates chance but doesn't negate agency.
 - The reviewers note that the show has not made the concept of Ta'veren clear, which makes it difficult to rely on as an explanation for characters surviving against the odds.

### Power Levels
- The reviewers discuss the inconsistent portrayal of the power levels of characters, especially when it comes to facing the Forsaken. They argue that it’s shaky how characters like Egwene stand up against the Forsaken without a clear thematic or logical basis.

### Scene Execution
- The blocking and visual storytelling are criticized for not effectively conveying what's happening or the significance of what's happening.
- The reviewers mention that the show needs to better integrate how the mechanics of the Wheel of Time universe impact the story, citing things like Nynaeve's power block and the concept of shared power.

### Show Quality and Production
- While they critique the show, they acknowledge that adapting The Wheel of Time is an enormous challenge given the depth and complexity of the source material.
- They all express a desire for more episodes per season to allow for more thorough storytelling.

### Meta Criticism
- The discussion is also reflective of their differing philosophies on storytelling, especially on how adaptive works should function.
- They conclude by acknowledging the hard work put into the show and express their hopes for improvements in future seasons.

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I tried to watch it, but without a video going in the corner to show what they were seeing,

There's a timer and you're supposed to play the episode in sync with that timer, I think.

Agree that it's not a good format at all though.

This was a very interesting watch, I'm surprised Sanderson was as overtly negative as he was with the writing and the themes.

Bookborn dropped her overall season review here:

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

killing turak and his soldiers

Yep, and someone like Elayne or any random Aes Sedai could have easily done the same (assuming the Oaths are not hindering them). Rand's only unique feat in the season that demonstrated a scary amount of raw power was channeling an abnormal amount when learning from Logain.
 

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

perrin has not shown skill with the sword, which we have already been told is coming for Rand in S3.

That's neat, I have not heard about Rand learning swordfighting in S3. Do you have a source? 
 

18 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I both fully agree with Elder_Haman (apart from his comment about Alfred (and even more so Edward)), and am also not entirely sure that the Rand we're seeing is depowered in the slightest (the reverse in the fact).

It's not so much that he's become weaker, but rather he hasn't done anything with the Power that a bottom-tier Aes Sedai couldn't have. 

We know his potential is still there with that scene he seized the Source at Logain's, but in the context of the universe and the entertainment value of the shows they've absolutely taken away all the moments from Rand where he learned or demonstrated either his sai'din and swordfighting skills. He's literally got less swordfighting time than Nynaeve(??) and Perrin(???) at this point.

24 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think they are going for a slow build with Rand for a few reasons:

 

(1) you have to give screen time to the other actors. A series focused primarily on Rand would suffer from weaker characterization of the remaining players. A good example is The Last Kingdom (one of my favorite shows). They are able to develop Uhtred, Brida, and Alfred quite well. Other characters are relegated to the side which works for TLK but would not for WoT

 

(2) avoiding the power problem. Rand has god-tier abilities. It is very difficult to craft situations where it feels as if he is in real jeopardy, especially when you can’t be in his head. RJ was able to really drill down on Rand’s internal conflicts, his fear of the OP, his madness-tinged rationalizations, and his personal code. Those things are harder to do in the show. Going slower will allow for his big moments to be earned and avoid the “Mary Sue” problem. 
 

(3) avoiding repetition. Rand has basically the same arc in each of the first three books. 
 

I certainly agree that Rand has been sidelined for much of the series so far. But I am confident that his time is coming. Remember, some of the same people who are complaining the loudest actually thought that Nyn was going to be the Dragon. That didn’t happen, nor is Rand going to be a bit player for much longer. He is ascendant as demonstrated by the visuals of the final scene atop the tower in Falme. 

I would much rather Rand have much more participation in the events thus far, but that's reasonable enough, cheers.

I'm just quite bummed out that "yeah he was sidelined, but watch him kick ass in Season 2!" was a very commonly seen response after Season 1, and then we got another 8 episodes (some of which were otherwise excellent) that treated Rand the same way.

 

35 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Rafe is making a show that is focused on the characters.

Focused on the characters minus Rand. Which is the problem most people have. You don't have to agree, but it's a huge strawman to pretend that people want the show to be all about Rand. 

Rand should not be one of the most minor characters in this ensemble.

If you agree that "it's not about Rand" is what the books were already going for, why is there a need to take away all the big Dragon Reborn moments that these same books had away from him. Would having Rand fight Ishy instead of Egwene be problematic for you somehow?

18 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I get a page not found error on that link.

Strange. Here's the content of that page:

Quote

Warning: This article contains spoilers for the season 2 finale of The Wheel of Time, "What Was Meant To Be."

How about that for a season finale, huh? "What Was Meant To Be" brought an epic, triumphant end to a season that did not shy away from darkness or danger. Thankfully, the Hollywood writers' strike ended just in time for EW to catch up with showrunner Rafe Judkins and pick his brain about his "holistic" approach to the adaptation of Robert Jordan's long-running fantasy series.

 

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: In addition to being the showrunner, you're also the co-writer on the season 2 finale. What's the difference for you between leading the room throughout the season and actually being in the writer's seat for such a big episode? 

 

RAFE JUDKINS: Yeah, I mean, I love writing. That's why I got into this gig and I love all the pieces that I get to do as a showrunner, but I love to write scenes. I love to just be alone with a computer working on a script. And so it was great to get to do that with this finale and make sure that I could tie together all of the pieces that we've been trying to build toward all season. We have a complicated job in terms of adapting two books into one season and pulling in certain things from later in the books, but also holding other things for later in the show. We've got a complicated juggling act going on right now. Our job by the end of season 2 was making sure that when you see those five characters up on the tower at the end, you understand who each of them are and what the core crux of their character is. You may have favorites and lesser favorites amongst those five, but you know who they are and you know what they stand for.
 

Totally. And not only are you combining books two and three, but you're also bringing stuff in from the first book since we didn't really touch on Perrin's wolf stuff in the first season and that had to come in here too — and obviously that plays a big role in the finale.
 

Yeah, I'm always viewing my job as adapting the entire series of Wheel of Time, not just each book individually. Because the series is so massive — it fills my whole wall behind me — we have to think of it holistically. Especially in these early stages, we really have to set up correctly what people need to understand because the books start to go into storylines that more cleanly adapt to television the later we go on as well. 

 

When we talked about season 1, you mentioned that the first book, The Eye of the World, is very different from the rest of the series. It starts out by seeming like a standard fantasy quest, but then at the end of that story it becomes clear that The Wheel of Time has only just begun. What was fun about diving deeper into Robert Jordan's world in season 2? 
 

I think that's one of the best things about The Wheel of Time is the deeper you get into it, the more interesting things happen, the more unique cultures you meet, the more unusual characters and conflicts that still feel so fresh even decades later. I think the books really do that. When you read them, you feel like you grow up with them, you feel like they become more sophisticated and deep. I hope the show does the same, so that by the time you get to season 3, you're just rattling off things about the One Power and the Black Ajah. You just become fluent in the world of Wheel of Time the deeper you get into it. 

 

Speaking of the unique cultures of Wheel of Time, the Seanchan are such a big element of season 2. What was fun about bringing them to the screen, and also making them feel so dangerous? One of the reasons this finale feels so triumphant is that there were several episodes this season where it felt like the Seanchan were just steamrolling everything. In season 1 it's like, "There are troll soldiers, there's a Dark Lord and his minions, I know how this goes." But with the Seanchan you just feel like, "Wait, I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen anything like this before." 
 

One of the things that really excited me about taking on this adaptation was that memory of getting to the second book and meeting the Seanchan. I remember getting there when I was younger and feeling like, "I don't know where this story is going, and that makes me excited!" That makes you lean in, and I feel like we had to achieve that in the show too. Everyone worked so hard across every department, from the writers to the costumes to the dialect team to the production design to make sure that the Seanchan really come in and just absolutely sideswipe you and drive every story in a direction that you never saw coming. I think for the show to really work, we needed the Seanchan to work because it could give that audience the feeling of, "I don't know what's going to happen next in this show and I need to watch to find out." 
 

In particular, their threat feels so real because they really beat down Egwene (Madeleine Madden). So her breaking free and working together with everyone to defeat the Seanchan in this finale feels so exciting and triumphant because it really did seem like they were walking away with it for a little bit there.
 

We really wanted her personal journey this season to feel impossible to get out of. As a logical person, you're putting yourself in her mind and you're like, "There is no way out. We cannot escape from this." She feels like our sort of representation for the Seanchan writ large: How do our leads get out of this? And I feel like the best finales that any movie or TV show have are something where you as the audience feel like your lead is up against impossible odds and you don't know how they can overcome them. And then when they do, it's surprising and amazing. The Seanchan really give us that story, where it's really satisfying for the audience to follow Egwene on that journey and then see all of our characters overcoming the Seanchan in a similar way.

 

I wanted to ask you about that climactic scene with the five Two Rivers characters on the tower and the fiery dragon in the sky behind them. We spent season 1 wondering which of them was the Dragon Reborn, and we eventually learned that Rand (Josha Stradowski) was the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon. Throughout season 2, Moiraine (Rosamund Pike) has been reciting this prophecy of how the Dragon Reborn will declare himself to the world on that tower. But I just couldn't help but notice that if Rand had been on his own up there, it would not have gone down like that. He would've been gentled by the Seanchan and killed by Ishamael (Fares Fares). Their triumph was only possible because they were all there together. Doesn't it feel like "The Dragon," this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about, is really all of them? 
 

Yeah, one of the most famous quotes of the final book is it wasn't a story about him, it was about all of them. That's what we're trying to represent in that scene on top of the tower: This is not a Chosen One story just about him, it's a Chosen One story that's about all of them, and they each fit into it in their own different way. That makes it a much more interesting story. You don't know where it's going to go. Also it makes you think, was it about all of them last time? Were Lanfear and Ishamael similar or dissimilar to Mat and Egwene? That cyclical nature of time and how it repeats itself opens up really interesting ideas.

It's a little strange to me. It really is not all about Rand. He very much needed help from others and his character arc concludes with that realization. That does not mean he suddenly isn't the Dragon Reborn, the most powerful channeler of all time, the prophesized saviour and destroyer of the world, in both the show and the books.

The first book literally starts with this depiction before the first chapter even starts:

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

I am totally cool with a more ensemble focused storytelling, but Rand still has to be the most powerful and impactful figure within the context of that ensemble. His character development depends on that on top of his his unwillingness and fear with regards to dealing with that power while needing to use it in order to do the right thing. 

In the books Elayne and post-damane Egwene tries to "teach" Rand how to use the Power, only to realise that they're completely bodied by Rand randomly channeling by feel. 

In the show thus far, none of his "feats" could not have been recreated by a novice like Elayne or a rando Aes Sedai like Liandrin. We are two seasons in and he knows neither how to use the sword nor channel, and it's a weird writing choice to say the least.
 

Just now, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't see how his answer is any different the three ta'veren in the books being necessary, and Moiraine, Egwene, Min, Aviendha, Elayne, Birgitte, Lan, Nynaeve, Tam... The Dragon was the one facing the Dark One, but he could not do it alone. He did not say they were all the Dragon, but they were all the world-saving force. 

I mean he... answered "Yeah" to the question "Doesn't it feel like "The Dragon," this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about, is really all of them?"

Where "this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about" is the appositive beside the noun "The Dragon".

Not sure if this is been posted around here yet, but Rafe seems to have semi-confirmed the Power Rangers theory in this new interview here with the last question, that the Dragon was "all of them". This also explains how ineffectual Rand has been across both seasons.

https://ew.com/tv/the-wheel-of-time-season-2-finale-showrunner-interview/

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I think there would be a difference between attacking a person and doing something to an object that affects the person, especially if you would have done exactly the same had the person not been there. 

That seems plausible on a technicality, but by that logic Aes Sedai could probably just "set my enemy's clothes on fire" or "tighten that dude's belt with great force" or "telekinetically throw a cleaver at this guy" or "summon a meteor in the sky that's only targeted in the general direction of this fortress" and call it a day, I'm not sure the third Oath would have had any meaning in-universe at all whatsoever, and the Ashaman scenes would greatly lose their impact. There's definitely no precedence in the books in this regard, too.
 

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

because he said he is hyper sensitive to the three oaths, not because it is obviously against them. 

The Aes Sedai are really weird about using the Power to "educate" with corporal punishment, and apparently that's a-okay according to RJ.

But I guess plausible deniability can only stretch so far, if Moiraine sinks a ferry with its captain on it that's pretty much a level of oath "violation" that we've not seen in the books, which is what Sando ultimately objected to, and Rafe hashed it out with Team Jordan. In the end the scene featured the boat being sucked down into a whirlpool, Moiraine stops channeling, and the silly captain goes to die with it.

I'm pretty sure there's a branch of ethics that goes into this. If I fire a gun with it pointed at someone's head after robbing him, but I claim that "I did not intend to kill him, I just wanted to escape - I would have been even happier if I managed to escape while he stayed alive!", is that a plausible defense? A common answer to that question is that we cannot reasonably expect to not have caused harm in so doing, and therefore my initial claim is a huge load of copium that would have been too convenient if allowed.

20 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

“Normies” didn’t start talking about GoT until season 3 or 4 though. The Red Wedding was the first thing I remember people talking about “at the water cooler”. 

I'm pretty sure after Season 1's finale everyone in my circles started talking about it, even people you would never expect to ever be interested in fantasy

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Aes Sedai can't "make a weapon which man can use to kill another". Nothing says AS can't create objects to hurt others severely or weapons that women can use to kill another women if the AS decides to interpret "man" as male and not human. Very vague.

That's the second oath, the one about creating weapons.

The relevant one here is the third one:
"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai"

Brandon Sanderson straight up objected to an initial script where Moiraine channeled and killed that ferryman in Season 1 Episode 2 and had Rafe check with Team Jordan and get it reworked, because of how that would violate this oath.

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Oaths are full of loopholes and only as binding as an Aes Sedai allows them to be. That's why they don't work

They are full of loopholes but RJ was often careful enough to make it make sense.

In the case of this finale, Lan straights up tells Moiraine she might be killing innocents, and she replied that she would kill a thousand innocents if that helps Rand survive at all. With this as context I don't see how she could circumvent the third Oath at all without straight up denying reality 

6 hours ago, Ralph said:

sorry if already given in the next eight pages that I have not yet read, but could you post the source of this - I have not seen it

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/some-thoughts-from-brandon-on-episode-two/

Here's him writing about a little about the Oaths about that episode on his site.

I believe he goes into more detail in a podcast, I'll add it here if I can find it again

IIRC Rafe straight up said they made a lot intentional changes to make the series less problematic in modern society, and a lot of the shortcomings of the show can be traced to this.

There's of course some COVID related stuff and Matt's actor, but I think most of the "bad stuff" so far were pretty deliberate changes that simply did not work very well in the end.

35 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

At this point Renna is no longer a Sul Damane, but also, hanging her was causing Egwene immense strain and pain, she fought through that and managed to keep up the hanging. It was not an easy thing, maybe a line of blood from her eyes or nose might have shown the strain much better. 

Nobody is disputing this part. Egwene would have died herself if Renna died there and then, because Egwene was still collared by her.

The point is Egwene could not even pick up the pitcher to get a drink for herself because she could not help desire to use it as a weapon, even though it wasn't a weapon, and even long after she knew it wouldn't work. Just contemplating causing harm to your sul'dam is supposed to be impossible.

Egwene fully intended to kill Renna even by Episode 7 and she should not have been able to pick up a tool (one that is specifically designed for control and enslavement, no less) to facilitate that.

57 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

That’s what I thought; they shouldn’t have been cheering, they should have been terrified.  If they were cheering for the liberators, they actually should have been cheering for the Whitecloaks since from the ground, they appeared to save the city.

 

As for then”fight in the sky” that everyone sees in the book, now it’s just a fight on a tower and it’s likely that the prominent image is of a woman fighting the “Dark One.”

They didn't even see Rand do anything, if they saw him at all. When Rand stepped up to the edge, the civilians should have been like "who tf is this dude?"

1 minute ago, Scarloc99 said:

Like I said my wife explained all that really clearly, but if you can’t get that from that scene and all that has been laid out in the second season then maybe you should re watch because your blinkered view is clearly meaning you are not getting the details. 

This is a very bizarre post. Your wife's opinion on the scene and how it allows Egwene to achieve what she wants doesn't change the fact that it goes completely against both book and show lore.

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Again, it's the rationalization that matters. Egwene has disciplined her thoughts sufficiently that she can look at the collar and not see it as a weapon, to partition her brain where her future intentions are separated from her current thoughts.

If that's the case, could she not just straight up channel against Renna or cave her head in with a baseball bat by disciplining her thoughts in a way such that these actions would not be rationalized as "causing harm"?

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

The function of the collar is not as a weapon.

This almost sounds a little like "the function of this pistol is not as a weapon, all it does is launch a projectile at a high velocity which can happen to hurt someone when I point it at them" 😛

The a'dam is explicitly designed as a deeply invasive enslavement device, I don't think it's "only to link two channelers". IIRC it's supposed to be nigh impossible for damane to even contemplate causing harm to their sul'dam, but Egwene straight up collared Renna with the intention to kill her.

1 minute ago, Samt said:

Agree with the general idea, but Egwene hasn't taken the oaths.  The way that the interlocked Damane system works is unclear, but the 3 oaths don't come into it.  

This one is not about the Oaths, but rather the fact that she should not have been able to even pick up that collar like she couldn't pick up the jug of water. I'm talking about the disregard for the lore in general.