And if what you were trying to prove is that viewership went down, that would be a valid metric to consider. But that metric does not speak to the question of whether viewers who watched both seasons considered season 2 to be an improvement.

“Slightly better than bad” is your subjective evaluation. I appreciate Wheel of Time as a well-acted, enjoyable television show with characters that I care about. For me, it is better than 90% of the other fantasy shows on television. Only the first few seasons of Game of Thrones fare better for me. If you feel like there are better fantasy shows out there, I’d be interested in which ones. I’ll watch them. But I’m not interested in comparing it to the books and picking at the differences as if they were scabs.

You deserve a 25% tip.

LOL. Thanks. I'll take that for exactly what it's worth. 😉

No. I’m using them as a metric. They are one piece of evidence which one can point to. Critical reception is another metric. Each of those metrics has limitations as you have capably demonstrated.

So by what metric do you argue that S2 was less well received than S1?

Okay. That’s my only point.

It is one of several metrics that indicates that season 2 was received more favorably than season 1. Is that conclusion something you take issue with? Or can we agree that, by the metrics currently available to us, season two was better than season one?

Yes.

And they didn't in the books? LOL Not true. Almost all of the EFF retained their personalities and are on the same emotional paths that they were in the books. Mat is the big exception to this which is partly due to Barney Harris leaving, and partly due to them inverting his "reluctant hero" personality from "doesn't want to do the right thing, but ends up doing it anyway" to "actively struggling with whether he has the capacity to be a hero" which makes for better television. There is no misandry. There has been the intentional elevation of female characters which isn't the same thing.

I get the math. But also we do not have equal viewership numbers to compare.

Yeah, I just don’t buy that a 22% improvement in the audience score is attributable to friends and family of the cast and crew.

Move the arms would be more accurate. Nothing I've seen the damane so far requires fingers or hands.

Not really, no. I’m happy that despite knowing the books, I don’t know what to expect in the show. I’ve always been of the opinion that WoT as written by Jordan would just not be great television, even though they were great books. Now that doesn’t mean that I’ve loved every choice that has been made. There have been plenty examples of below average writing, wonky CGI, badly cut fight scenes, and strange decisions. I also admit to skewing more toward the positive and “defending” the writers in these forums because I find the vehemence of some of the criticisms off putting. It ruffles my feathers when people make statements about how people should be “embarrassed” or the every decision is “trash”, etc.

It’s not that my expectations are low. It’s that I genuinely enjoy the show. I did not enjoy season 1 as much. I really liked season 2. People are allowed to like different things.

Nope. None of that bothers me.

Maybe. I understand what you’re saying about the number of reviews. That’s more related to viewership numbers though, which I said is still an open question. Remember season 1 has had an extra 24 months to accumulate reviews. I still think that the consensus opinion is that season one was better than season two. By that metric, season 2 was an improvement.

I’m not upset because I didn’t find it cringy at all. I thoroughly enjoyed season 2 and think it has been great television. It is substantially different from the books, which doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s a new take that I’m enjoying. And the books are still sitting on my shelves waiting to be read again whenever I want.

While it would have been very cool, I think it would have defeated Ishy’s intent.

Okay. But the numbers are what they are and quite a few people enjoy the show. I quite like the fact that it is a drama. Dramas are sustainable as tv shows, adventures really aren’t.

What is your metric for what constitutes an improvement? I would say that in the area it matters most -- viewership numbers -- it's still too early to tell. We will have an apples to apples comparison once the numbers grab all of season 2. In the area it matters second most -- audience reception -- it is clearly an improvement. Audience score on rotten tomatoes went from 60% fresh after season 1 to 82% fresh for season 2. I would not be surprised to get some Emmy nominations out of this season (Rosamund Pike, Natasha O'Keefe, and Madeleine Madden are all contenders for Best Actress/Supporting Actress) Whether it is an improvement in terms of the way the story of the Wheel of Time is told is, of course, an entirely subjective thing. I can see why the changes aren't your thing though.

This is wrong. Ishy plays the very long game. The show has established this in many, many ways. Dying is changing lots of things. Ishy knew that Rand wasn't ready to turn to the Shadow. He knew he couldn't win. So he's taking himself off the board and letting the rest of the Forsaken deal with Rand. Either Rand will break the wheel anyway (so Ishy wins), or Rand will win guaranteeing Ishy another shot. "Dying" is Ishamael's optimal choice. The show has also established that Ishamael is the only one of the Forsaken who really believes in the Dark. He is the favored of the Dark One. He knows the DO isn't going to allow him to remain off the board forever. So, like he did at the Eye and like he has been doing to literally everyone he has interacted with all season, he gives Rand what he wants him to see. He sells it - "I see ... nothing" - letting Rand truly believe that he has removed him from the pattern. Because Rand is young and naive and will believe it ... again. (And, no, Rafe isn't going to spoil this reveal. He has every reason to want to play along.)

He didn't remember anything because of the tea.

We can expect it, we just may not get it. Still, there's no reason for book readers to think that Ishamael is really, truly and forever dead. Indeed there is every reason to think he's playing the long game. Or a literal resurrection by Shaidar Haran? Could be super creepy. LOL. You wish!