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WoT If...Birgitte Doesn't Survive the Last Battle?


Mashiara Sedai

Welcome back to "WoT If?", Dragonmount's weekly theory blog. With the release of A Memory of Light quickly approaching, I thought it would be interesting to take a look at whether some characters will survive or perish during the Last Battle. We'll take just a few people at a time and look at foreshadowing, among other things, that point to life or death after the series.

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

Also, this WILL NOT contain spoilers from A Memory of Light's Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2, or Chapter 11. Please refrain from posting any spoilers from A Memory of Light in the comments section. The A Memory of Light spoiler discussion board can be found here.

 

A few weeks ago, we touched upon the subject of Birgitte, but only in regards to her connection to the Horn. I'd like to expand on that a bit, seeing if she's a prime candidate for death before, or during, the Last Battle.

 

I'll start with the evidence saying she won't die. There's less of this, I believe.

 

As discussed two weeks ago, Min sees Birgitte bound to a man who is "older" and "much younger," but is the same man (Winter's Heart, Chapter 12, "A Lily in Winter"). If Birgitte dies and is reborn right away, she will be younger than Gaidal Cain, like normal. Alternately, she could die and not be reborn, but I think the results would be the same. The next time around, he would be born first and she would be born later. For Gaidal to be the younger of the pair, I'd say that she has to live through this life.

 

That's the only logic I can find that points to her surviving. Now for reasons she will die.

 

Birgitte is a tragic character, one of the most tragic in the series. Her greatest fear comes from losing her memories, which would make her forget Gaidal Cain. She begins to drink heavily to drown her sorrows. She also hates people knowing her past and that she is a Hero. She feels like that title is undeserved in this life because she hasn't done anything to deserve it. In the past, she only did what she had to, and the pressure of living up to her fame is too much for her to handle. She doesn't like the titles Elayne has forced on her, and though Birgitte cares for Elayne greatly, their relationship doesn't bring the comfort it should. In short, Birgitte doesn't have much to live for.

 

One thing Robert Jordan said points to Birgitte's death:

 

Question: What happens to Birgitte if the Horn of Valere is sounded again?

 

Robert Jordan: Read and find out, my children, read and find out. :)

 

In all honesty, I think this means that Birgitte might die before the Horn is sounded again. When asked something along the same lines, Brandon Sanderson gives a straightforward answer.

 

Question: Will Gaidal Cain be spun out as a hero of the horn of Valere should the horn be sounded again? Can a hero show up there if alive? Will a hero become a "copy" that rests within the horn until called to arms?

 

Brandon Sanderson: As I understand, if you are 'spun out' you do not respond to the call of the Horn. So no Cain showing up if it is sounded again, as he's been spun out.

 

The same would be true about Birgitte. Even if she hasn't been "spun out" in the traditional sense, her soul isn't in Tel'aran'rhiod to come to the call of the Horn. And if she died, I think her soul would go to the "waiting place" before going to Tel'aran'rhiod (which is also the reason I don't think Rand will be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod after his death). Of course, there are some things Robert Jordan RAFO'ed that Brandon Sanderson has answered, so perhaps that's not the best proof.

 

So here's something better. First, Elayne thinks about how Birgitte is unable to use a sword.

 

Winter's Heart

Chapter 7, "The Streets of Caemlyn"

 

Unlike them, she [birgitte] wore neither sword nor armor. The memories of her past lives were fading—she said she could remember nothing at all clearly before the founding of the White Tower, now, though fragments still floated up—but one thing she claimed to recall absolutely. Every time she had tried to use a sword, she had nearly gotten herself killed, and had even done so more than once.

 

Next, Elayne comments on how Birgitte refuses to use a sword.

 

Winter's Heart

Chapter 27, "To Surprise Queens and Kings"

 

The suggestion that she [birgitte] wear a sword had been quashed with as much indignation as if Elayne had asked Aviendha to wear one. Birgitte knew the bow, but she claimed she might stab herself trying to draw a sword.

 

And finally, Birgitte is wearing a sword.

 

Towers of Midnight

Chapter 22, "The End of a Legend"

 

Though she had Guardswomen and men with extra bows at the hallways, Birgitte herself carried a sword, for an assassination attempt would most likely turn to close-quarters fighting.

 

This, my friends, is foreshadowing. And notice how it's dropped in so casually; there's no extra attention given to it. That's good foreshadowing. In fact, when Towers of Midnight first came out, many people questioned this part in the book. It seemed so out of place with Birgitte's earlier insistence that she won't touch a sword. I think a lot of people thought it was a mistake of sorts, but I'm sure it's just a hint of things to come, trying to sneak below our radar. As a student of literature, I feel these little signs are meant to be important clues to later plotlines.

 

One last thing Min saw around Elayne might point to a tragic event with Birgitte:

 

The Great Hunt

Chapter 24, "New Friends and Old Enemies"

 

"She says that a great deal," Elayne said dryly. "One of the things she said she saw looking at me was a severed hand. Not mine, she says. She claims she does not know what it means, either."

 

Perhaps it's Birgitte stabbing herself, cutting off her own hand by accident? Or maybe something not so accidental? Maybe it will be some sort of sacrifice, Birgitte giving up her life to save Elayne's?

 

I think Birgitte is going to be the most important character to die during the final book. I honestly believe all of our "main" characters will live. We'll go into some of the possibilities of that sometime later. That's all for this week. For next time, I want to speculate a bit on the connection between the three ta'veren. Thanks for reading!




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Same here. I connected the hand vision with Rand's injury. On Birgitte dying, I think her death is due course. Birgette comments that her old memories are fading but that she remembers that any time she has ever used a sword it ended up being a bad call, as referenced here. Then 4 books later we see her wearing a sword. I took that as conformation that she would certainly die, most likely doing something heroic...or in her words, "doing what she had to do" (and hopefully respond to the call when the horn is sounded at the LB) and be spun out again shortly after.

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Except Rand's hand was not exactly "severed." It was blown off by a fireball, leaving no "hand" after it was done. I know it seems like a small distinction, but I feel it is significant because how can there be a vision about a severed hand with no severed hand?

 

I agree with Mashiara that Birgitte is probably the most major character that will die in the final novel, but I think that she will NOT be reborn, due to the way she was ripped out of T'A'R. Then again, we'll probably never know for sure, since this is, you know, THE END.

 

As for what other characters will die, well... it's a crap-shoot. Could be anyone, but I think anyone that would qualify as a major or primary character will survive, including Lan. Perhaps Faile might die. She'd be the only other semi-major character that might not survive.

 

But I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that Moiraine takes out Cyndane. I believe there is some unfinished business there.

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@metal head.

"i really really really hope that moiraine takes out lanfear".

hahahaha,i dont believe this is going to happen lol.

i know,i know, we differ greatly in our concept of lanfear,but please bear in

mind that she is my absolute female favorite in randland(and i am talking

about lanfear only,books 2-5)so part of what i am writing is wishful thinking.

i do believe she is going to supply rand the missing data regarding the bore.

cyndane does nothing to me,she is a two dimensional insignificat nobody.

 

by the way,wonderful post on the true birthplace of the dragon.kudos!!!!

our dragon was born twice on dragonmount,tai'shar rand al thor.

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Moiraine might be able to duel with Suian, Lanfear would trash her, angreal or not. Though, I'd have to agree the only resolution we'll get on Birgitte will be if she dies and comes back with the blowing of the Horn (onscreen).

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Then again, we'll probably never know for sure, since this is, you know, THE END.

 

RJ did say that there is no end to the turning of the wheel... and, RJ did plan for outrigger novels involving mat, so the pattern does continue... and aviendha's walk through the pillars did show the next age...

 

i think, youre just plainly wrong on this... this isnt the end of the story... just another turning... i think rand will have to destroy the prison, and recreate it... "clear the rubble", so that it can be bored anew later...

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Wouldn't it be GRAND if Birgitte was spun out as one of the main characters kids? I don't think that's possible for Elayne or Aviendha, since they are/will be preggo before Birgitte MAY die...but it's a nice thought. Even nicer thought that her eternal romance with Gaidal Cain would continue. I think she's a goner in the LB too, but I still hate to see her go and hope she remains conneted to the Wheel.

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@jack - Thanks for kind words about my Dragon post.

 

I think everyone is underestimating Moiraine. Cyndane isn't as powerful as she was when she was Lanfear. I think I recall her thinking that during the cleansing of saidin. And while Moiraine may have lost much of her strength in the power to the Finns, her new toy isn't an angreal, but a sa'angreal. I know I need a reference, but I think I remember her saying that even in her weakened state, that sa'angreal makes her many times more powerful than she ever was before. Besides, I don't need her to kill Cyndane in a face-to-face duel. I don't think Moiraine is dumb enough to take on ANY Forsaken toe-to-toe. She'll be sneaky, right? Perhaps you know the Trolloc proverb which says "Un Kaa!! SLAAARR! Grrotik!!" Which I'm told translates to "Revenge is a dish best served cold?"

 

And I firmly believe that Cyndane will NOT betray the Shadow intentionally. No way does the "Daughter of Night" turn to the light in the end. It's a trap, and I very much doubt that Rand will fall for it. Moridin is much more likely a candidate for turning, but truly I don't think any bad guys are looking for redemption. They've committed too many atrocities to be redeemed at this point. If Cyndane provides any helpful information to Rand, it will be unintentional, like maybe she gloats a little too much and gives something away. But helping the good guys on purpose? Lanfear? I can't buy that yet. Not with Moridin holding her mindtrap, and probably not even if he frees her from it.

 

@mark, when I said that we were at "THE END" -- I thought BS and Harriet said that this would be it, and that other than the forthcoming encyclopedia, there wouldn't be any further WoT novels, outriggers, or prequels; that it was being put to bed, permanently. My statement was based on that belief, that there will be no additional new canon WoT content after AMoL. So I don't think we'll see Birgitte again after her death, IF she dies. That's why I say "we'll probably never know."

 

@Taryntula - I LOVE this idea! As far as we know, Min and Aviendha aren't pregnant yet. They are all bonded to Rand. It's conceivable to me that she could be reborn as the child of either Min or Aviendha, through her indirect connection to Rand (via Elayne). Good theory!

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Hmm... been thinking about this a little more mark. You may be on to something...

 

If Birgitte was ripped away from T'A'R, and if time is a wheel, then she will again be ripped away from it at some point in the future. And in order for that to happen, she would need to be bound to T'A'R again somehow.

 

I wonder if whatever cosmic forces in WoT-land that decide who is heroic enough to be reborn will decide that her actions since being ripped away are enough for her to be re-bound to the Wheel and T'A'R? That'd be a pretty simple literary work-around that would make sense.

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Wouldn't it be GRAND if Birgitte was spun out as one of the main characters kids? I don't think that's possible for Elayne or Aviendha, since they are/will be preggo before Birgitte MAY die...but it's a nice thought. Even nicer thought that her eternal romance with Gaidal Cain would continue. I think she's a goner in the LB too, but I still hate to see her go and hope she remains conneted to the Wheel.

 

actually, brandon confirmed that the thread of the baby is "attached" when the child is capable of self-sustaining life, just before birth... so it is possible for one of elaynes babies to be brigette... tho, i dont think she will be :)

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I think everyone is underestimating Moiraine. Cyndane isn't as powerful as she was when she was Lanfear.

 

very much agree, cyndane has stepped down a rung on the powerometer, and moiraine has fallen FAR down... but with the sa'angreal, i suspect she'll be more than a match for her this time...

 

@mark, when I said that we were at "THE END" -- I thought BS and Harriet said that this would be it, and that other than the forthcoming encyclopedia, there wouldn't be any further WoT novels, outriggers, or prequels; that it was being put to bed, permanently. My statement was based on that belief, that there will be no additional new canon WoT content after AMoL. So I don't think we'll see Birgitte again after her death, IF she dies. That's why I say "we'll probably never know."

 

agreed that we'll probably never know for certain, but yes... this will likely be the last book of the series, but RJ did say that there is no end to the spinning of the wheel... thus, there is no "end" of the story, where the DO is destroyed permenantly...

 

Birgitte must eventually be retied to the wheel as a hero of the horn, but that doesnt mean it will be right away... however, ive yet to be convinced that she has been severed from that connection already... according to the wolves, whenever someone dies in TAR, they die permenantly... but she didnt die atall, she got pushed into reality... her weak thread got bound to elaynes when she bonded her... so she may or may not be severed from the horn, we dont know... however, that the wheel spun out gaidal just before TG, and her death seems almost certain, AND she was always younger than gaidal, tells me she'll likely die, and be reborn almost right away, ready to reunite with him... else, the wheel wouldnt have spun him out...

 

i suspect she will die, and therell be some sort of confirmation in TAR that she's alive there... tho, im convinced she's still a hero, i dont need confirmation...

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@Metal Head. If her connection to the Horn was broken, and is to be reestablished, I think she's banking on street credit. She had the misfortune of being tied to Elayne's story arc for 9 books now. Nothing happened, let alone anything heroic.

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@Metal Head. If her connection to the Horn was broken, and is to be reestablished, I think she's banking on street credit. She had the misfortune of being tied to Elayne's story arc for 9 books now. Nothing happened, let alone anything heroic.

 

thats a BIG if... but still... in the chance that she has, theres nothing saying she'll be rebound during this revolution of the wheel... ultimately, all threads are rewoven into the pattern...

 

however, since gaidal already got spun out, it makes me believe she still is bound...

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@jack - Thanks for kind words about my Dragon post.

 

Where's that post? Could I have a link, please? :)

 

I think it would be really beautifully and romantically done, i.e. Birgitte dying and then seen again - and for the last time - when the horn is blown. I wonder if Min, Elayne or Aviendha would recognise her somehow in the future if she bacame a child of one of them? What do you guys think? After all, it would be the only situation - and rather unusual one - when the mother had known her child's soul before it was born... Weird.

 

Actually, I don't quite understand why should Birgitte's connection to the Horn get severed. I think it's just as if she was reborn - her soul will return staight to TAR. What I do understand is that her being ripped out may not have been due to the Wheel's will, therefore there's no long life ahead of her.

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Metal Head, on , said:

 

@jack - Thanks for kind words about my Dragon post.

 

Where's that post? Could I have a link, please? :)

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/index.php/News/theoryblog/wot-ifthe-wheel-is-just-showing-off-r450?st=25#commentsStart

 

There are two comments from me on this page, and the one jack is referring to is the second one, at the bottom, with the numbered bullet points.

 

And thanks for the interest, gwen. It's not a long post, but still I hope you find it worth your time. It's just about all the different places and times where there was movement in the Dragon's development. Sort of a comment about the Dragon's "many" origins. My main point is that the Dragon was actually "re-born" twice during Rand's life, both times on Dragonmount.

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I hope Birgitte lands at least an arrow on Moghedien!!!!And , of course I want Birgitte to survive!!!

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another option, that may not include her death... is that when the horn is sounded, she's ripped out of reality, and back as a hero... sorta the opposite of what already happened...

 

that way it wouldnt need a tramatic death, just a "whoops! i didnt know that would happen..."

 

tho i should say this doesnt take into account the foreshadowing of her death(taking up a sword)... still :)

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@metal head.

moiraine bracelet is an angreal,not a sa'angreal,i just finished rereading

the relevant pages in tom.

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@metal head.

moiraine bracelet is an angreal,not a sa'angreal,i just finished rereading

the relevant pages in tom.

 

angreal, or sa'angreal, it does increase her power to near the top of the scale... tho, i dont think she's as powerful as cyndane...

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Min had a viewing of Birgitte when they meet of lives lived up till that meeting and even way more after (in the future). This viewing leads me to believe two things: 1) that she is still linked to the Horn based on the viewing and 2) that she was ripped out for the Pattern's purpose, namely the gholam thrreat. Only Birgitte had knowledge of this and also advice concerning the Tower of Ghenjei and the fact that she went in in an earlier life.These two things alone could be why she was ripped out - no matter what Moghie intended - and it happened to save one of the Three. The severed hand also leads to believe that Birgitte sacrifices herself to save Elayne from Moghie's revenge. What do you all think?

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I was doing a re-read and had a new ideal I don't think has been put down on paper yet. Min sees an onyx, or looks like onyx, hand holding Callandor. But I don't think its gonna be used against him that way. The onyx hand is Rand's new hand. That Elayne will craft for him. After she gets Mat's medallion back to finish the quick study on it. I'm thinking maybe the unknown flaw in Callandor "MIGHT" be avoided that way. By having a hand that the One Power, or maybe the True Power also, cannot touch. Thats probably why his stump/hand is hidden in the Cover Art. Like I said, I had a thought. Glad I could share it with you.

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@damer flinn.

actually,despothera wrote about something like this in one of his theory blogs,

rand will get an onyx hand ,in the same or similar way benedict got his

silver hand in the first chronicles of amber(book 4,the hand of oberon).

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I was doing a re-read and had a new ideal I don't think has been put down on paper yet. Min sees an onyx, or looks like onyx, hand holding Callandor. But I don't think its gonna be used against him that way. The onyx hand is Rand's new hand. That Elayne will craft for him.

 

cuiendiar from saidar is white... this leaves me to believe that cuiendiar from saidin is black... meaning, that IF rands hand is replaced by the power, itll be a saidin crafted hand...

 

also, the flaw with callendor is that it doesnt have a buffer... which is why it must be used(safely) with 2 women, so the link acts as the buffer... i believe that callendor is capable of pulling more saidin through it than even the choden kal could... however, it would be crazy stupid to do so without the buffer(im thinking dragonmounts creation)... but in the circle, the buffer that is the women, limit it to less then the choden kal...

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@metal head.

moiraine bracelet is an angreal,not a sa'angreal,i just finished rereading

the relevant pages in tom.

 

I stand corrected. It was indeed an angreal. The reason I was confused is because it was stated to be a very powerful angreal, almost as powerful as a sa'angreal. I knew "sa'angreal" was in there somewhere. It was the "almost" that I forgot about.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/ivory_bracelet.html

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cant say ive ever understood the difference between angreal and sa'angreal... its like having 2 different words for screwdriver when ones normal and the other is novelty sized....

 

is there a difference other then the strength of it? how its created perhaps?

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