How do you define the term 'The Last Battle'?

[szilard]

Is it a specific event?

Or the whole bookseries is the LB?

Is it an ongoing process until the loom is broken?

 

Hmm?

[Sabio]

I guess you could say the Last Battle of the age or specific event.  For me Rand vs the DO is the last battle, his victory is what ended the age.  I see the whole armies fighting as sort of a side show.  Mostly to keep people occupied so Rand could do his thing.  Had the DO killed Rand, Mat armies winning would of been meaningless.  Had Rand won but the army of darkness won, it wouldn't of mattered.  RJ or BS had said if the DO gets sealed away the shadowspawn die.  Since the wheel never stop turning, there is never a true last battle.  So I see it as the last battle for the age.  The DO is sealed away, now the wheel starts over again.  People will forget the DO, his prison gets drilled into etc.   Sort of like this is the event that resets the matrix.

[szilard]

Thanks for your interpretation!

 

Sort of like this is the event that resets the matrix.

I like this wording very much.

 

In general, I agree with you, but I read these snippets yesterday, so I was thinking all day about the LB.
 

Robert Jordan (Paraphrased)

Secondly, The Final Battle (Tarmon Gai-don or however it's spelled) has already started but only now (book 7) are the characters beginning to realise this.

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

 

You didn't think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn't ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That's your only chance.

 

I know that was supposed to be a listing of what Rand has in his favor, but the fact is that he is walking the razor's edge, barely hanging onto his sanity and growing more paranoid all the time, barely hanging onto putative allies, most of whom would just as soon see him go away in the hope that then everything would be the way it was before he showed up, confronted by enemies on every side. In short he has challenges enough for ten men. I've had people write to say they can't see how Rand is going to untangle all of this and get humanity ready to face the Last Battle. What I say is, what you believe to be true is not always true. What you think is going to happen is not always going to happen. That has been demonstrated time and again in The Wheel of Time. You could call those two statements one of the themes of the books.

 

This is a highly controversial area, don't you think?

[wotfan4472]

I thought as much. It makes sense that the conflict has been raging since the first book. It only came to a head when Rand fought the DO in Shayol Ghul, and the DO has been trying to win by stopping the encounter and destroying the people by breaking their wills.

[szilard]

I thought as much. It makes sense that the conflict has been raging since the first book.

 

So, does LB start in tEotW? 

[Sabio]

Guess it means the LB started the moment Rand was born.

[jack of shadows]

to be honest,the last battle is a misnomer,after all,it's a cyclic event going back to beginning

of the wheel of time,"he remembered lives,hundreds of them,thousands of them,stretching

to infinity".

the clock started its countdown the second rand was born,everything else was sideshow(like

sabio said).

forsaken,trolloc armies,randland armies,seanchan armies,aes sedai,ash'man,rulers and different

battle fronts meant absolutely nothing without rand,he was the only one who could stop the clock

and reset its timer to 0.0.

in one of your(szilard) privious posts,you wrote that rand's arc was finished in lord of chaos,well,no,

rand's arc was finished when he rode off from thakan'dar valley.

[szilard]

in one of your(szilard) privious posts,you wrote that rand's arc was finished in lord of chaos,well,no,

rand's arc was finished when he rode off from thakan'dar valley.

 

I must use 'big words': if you analyze the books from literary aspects, you cannot deny that Rand's storyline after LOC is basically over. Jordan tried to stretch his plot (and the others' too) a little bit, then he gave it up; that's why Nyn etc. fades away, because RJ cannot provide them any substantive 'mission'.

 

 

And what can surpass that EARTH-SHATTERING sentence?

The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world was changed forever.

 

 

 

[szilard]

jack of shadows,

 

one more thing: what do you think about that statement?

 

SPOILER!

 

 

 

So there you have it. Oh, finishing A Memory of Light, of course, and getting started on Mat and Tuon, and some others, five to ten years after the Last Battle. Those go without saying. Not a bad plan for the coming year, eh?

 

Maybe Rand is amongst them, who knows? There is no ending in WOT

 

 

 

 

[jack of shadows]

Szilard,

Sorry,i don't give a rat arse about mat or

Tuon or a few others.

The only reason i continued to read the

Wheel of time books after crossroads of

Twilight is rand.

Maybe rand is amongst them is not good

Enough,not for me anyway.

[Sabio]

Think that was one mistake RJ did. Too many characters,.  Rand, Nyn, Matt, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne.  In the end its too hard to try to give so many main characters screen time.  So it ends up alot of them doing stuff we simply don't care about.  Once Nyn joins with Rand her main story is over, she becomes assisting Rand.  After all once she is traveling with him and help cleans the male half, what is major for her to do but keep him safe?

[szilard]

OFF

 

The only reason i continued to read the
Wheel of time books after crossroads of
Twilight is rand.

 

I understand you. You have lost Mierin early, the Rand is in the background now. He's my 'most fav' character too.

 

Think that was one mistake RJ did. Too many characters,.  Rand, Nyn, Matt, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne.  In the end its too hard to try to give so many main characters screen time. 

 

I see zero problem with adding new characters (a fav of mine does not appear until LOC, another one does not appear until ACOS, another one does not appear until TPOD, and another one does not appear until WH). A few sporadic scenes with them do not harm anyone but not giving us at least one Rand-Nyn-talking-to-each-other chapter in WH/COT...

 

The main problem is the asynchronous timelines. Rand's story is almost at its end, but Mat has to meet/win over Tuon, Eg has to do a few things too, not to mention El. (Perrin does not matter, because Jordan sweated blood to give him missions after TDR.) Avi never get a chance to shine...

 

Jordan did not realize that readers mostly cares about the big six (and especially Rand).

 

One more thing about the outriggers, I mean Adventures in Amerika. After so many changing, maybe he planned to give Rand and co another big adventure.

[Sabio]

Adding side characters is fine.  But as the series shows having six main characters and trying to give each of them time makes for a bloated book, nonsense and drawn out arcs, or angry fans that so and so is hardly appearing and this person gets too much time.

[jack of shadows]

Oh,don't get me started!! my beloved mierin eronaile al'thor was removed from
The story way too soon.
Lanfear's interactions with rand were absolutely sensational,when she formally intoduced herself at the stone of tear,
I was literally holding my breath.
Three books after she disappeared,robert jordan brought her back not only with a complete new look but also with chicken's brain grrrrrr.

[dexterryu]

For me... it's Rand vs the Dark One at Shayol Guhl. That is truly the battle that mattered. That's the only victory that meant something definitive in the series. With TDO sealed away properly outside of the pattern once again is the only thing that really separates any of the other battles in the series from the War of Power/Trolloc wars, etc...

[szilard]

SPOILERS! SPOILERS!

 

 

Adding side characters is fine.  But as the series shows having six main characters and trying to give each of them time makes for a bloated book, nonsense and drawn out arcs, or angry fans that so and so is hardly appearing and this person gets too much time.

 

Rand, Nyn, Eg, Avi, even Perrin fades away in the later books... I think shorter books was Jordan's weaknesses. He needs space, enormous space.

 

 

Oh,don't get me started!! my beloved mierin eronaile al'thor was removed from
The story way too soon.
Lanfear's interactions with rand were absolutely sensational,when she formally intoduced herself at the stone of tear,
I was literally holding my breath.
Three books after she disappeared,robert jordan brought her back not only with a complete new look but also with chicken's brain grrrrrr.

 

I would really like to read a L O N G rant from you! Please, just start a thread, and put all of your anger into it!

 

I'm doing my yearly re-reading, and I read those chapters just yesterday, and I still feel pumped a day later

 

Putting Mierin away like this (and Moi-ofc was she was getting deliberately smaller and smaller role after TDR) was just a bad decision by Jordan. (I mean the missing time/books)

 

Taim was Demandred (NO, he's still D for me ofc) until WH as we know from RJ's notes, but Jordan made another big mistake splitting Td into two different persons. 

 

That's why we say all the time that after his illness in 1994, the whole series took a very different path, and he began to see the characters in a very different light etc.

[Guest]

I happen to like the changes that RJ made. 

[dexterryu]

SPOILERS! SPOILERS!

 

 

Adding side characters is fine.  But as the series shows having six main characters and trying to give each of them time makes for a bloated book, nonsense and drawn out arcs, or angry fans that so and so is hardly appearing and this person gets too much time.

 

Rand, Nyn, Eg, Avi, even Perrin fades away in the later books... I think shorter books was Jordan's weaknesses. He needs space, enormous space.

 

 

Oh,don't get me started!! my beloved mierin eronaile al'thor was removed from

The story way too soon.

Lanfear's interactions with rand were absolutely sensational,when she formally intoduced herself at the stone of tear,

I was literally holding my breath.

Three books after she disappeared,robert jordan brought her back not only with a complete new look but also with chicken's brain grrrrrr.

 

I would really like to read a L O N G rant from you! Please, just start a thread, and put all of your anger into it!

 

I'm doing my yearly re-reading, and I read those chapters just yesterday, and I still feel pumped a day later

 

Putting Mierin away like this (and Moi-ofc was she was getting deliberately smaller and smaller role after TDR) was just a bad decision by Jordan. (I mean the missing time/books)

 

Taim was Demandred (NO, he's still D for me ofc) until WH as we know from RJ's notes, but Jordan made another big mistake splitting Td into two different persons. 

 

That's why we say all the time that after his illness in 1994, the whole series took a very different path, and he began to see the characters in a very different light etc.

 

Do you have a link to the notes from RJ or Sandarson about Taim being Demandred? Not disputing you, just would really like to read that.

[Sabio]

Taim not being Dem was a great thing, would of been the worst secret ever as almost everyone guessed it.   Which is my guess why he changed it because so many people were already saying, Taim was Dem.  There was no surprise to it.

 

A post from Terez.  http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/96065-bits-from-rjs-notes

 

In that post there a link that contains notes from RJ's files.  http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8767. 

[dexterryu]

Taim not being Dem was a great thing, would of been the worst secret ever as almost everyone guessed it.   Which is my guess why he changed it because so many people were already saying, Taim was Dem.  There was no surprise to it.

 

A post from Terez.  http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/96065-bits-from-rjs-notes

 

In that post there a link that contains notes from RJ's files.  http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8767. 

 

Great info. That makes a lot of sense. 

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Think that was one mistake RJ did. Too many characters,. Rand, Nyn, Matt, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne. In the end its too hard to try to give so many main characters screen time. So it ends up alot of them doing stuff we simply don't care about. Once Nyn joins with Rand her main story is over, she becomes assisting Rand. After all once she is traveling with him and help cleans the male half, what is major for her to do but keep him safe?

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Exactly.... Sometimes I think that's the only reason for her OP strength, with her angreal she was his equal, he needed someone he could trust that could actually protect him from the Forsaken.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

??????.....Maybe I'm dense, but it never occurred to me that Taim could've been Demonstrated, didn't think the timeline was right as far as the approximate time of Taim appearing vs. the Forsaken escaping from their prison.

[Sabio]

Going just from memory as I can't remember when others like Mes, Dem (I think his first confirmation was book 6), and Semi first appeared.

 

Well at the end of book 1 we know for sure three Forsaken are free (Ishy, Ag, Bal).  Book 2 we know at least four have been freed (Lanfear).  Book 3 at least six have been freed (Sam and Bel'al).  Book 4 I believe two more are known to be free Asmo and Moghi (So up to eight we know are free).  He was captured when Rand's image appeared in the sky at Falme, the plan to break Taim free is mentioned in Book 4, and in book 5 we know he has escaped.  Book 5 at least 10 forsaken we know are freed  (Rhavin and Gren) .  Finally Taim shows up in book 6.  The reason people suspected Taim was Dem was Taim shows up with many of the same mannerisms of Dem.  So it would of been easy for Dem to break Taim free somewhere between book 2 and 5.

 

In the companion it states Taim had a passing resemblance to Demandred, both physically and in temperament.  But RJ probably simply made that as a way to explain how he initially made Dem and Taim the same person but then changed his mind.  Since by the time he decided to change his mind, the speculation Taim was Dem was already going about and RJ couldn't undo what he had already done.  So I think he simply went with they were just a lot alike.