[Basic]Spirited Away Mafia - Game over mafia wins

[Andrej]

AJ, why did you start the counterwagon the way you did? Because I'm looking at things again, and that might be the ONE thing this game you've done that I can't wrap my head around. You said you weren't going to tinfoil on me, and I'm trying to give you the same courtesy, but without having the benefit of actually having been in the thread when it all went down...that is a really strange spot.

What do you mean by the way I did?

 

After discussing with Cory in the morning and Darthe's posts getting considerably better from yesterday I was basically back to square one. It came down to BFG or Zalanna for me after more consideration. BFG was already well ahead in the VC and I didn't really feel the need to lump another vote on. I still had my reservations based on stuff we talked about and BFG had showed up and started posting in a way that I thought was constructive. I really think it boils down to bad circumstances irt Zalanna being absent and BFG showing up at the right time. I made a bad call and I acknowledge my responsibility in that because the Zalanna wagon probably doesn't become a thing if I just wagoned BFG like I was considering.

 

I messed up.

[Clovdyx]

 

Red - not exactly what happened. Seph made a post saying they just weren't T/T and he began to rethink his Zalanna mafia read, based on Kat being scummy. I pointed out that makes sense if you rule out the possibility of M/M, but he clearly wasn't doing that. And if I remember correctly, I never got an answer that satisfied me.

 

Bold - I don't understand this thought. Like you said, it was a very natural reaction. There's a chance that Wildfire is town and just produced an awful reads list, but I don't see how you can knock Hallia for that. Talk me through it?

You're right. I remember now your issue was why he didn't consider m/m. Fwiw I don't think me saying he said they weren't t/t is that different than from saying t/w but whatever. Something I'll need to check on was the progression of his Kat read from there.

 

My knock on Hallia is how she is honing in on Wildfire if it turns out she is town. Like I think Hallia's reaction looks good on its face but I also don't think it would be very hard for her to attack either. Again, this is me spitballing and making contingency plans - big picture stuff. Hallia has considerable more town equity than Wildfire atp but that doesn't make it necessarily true. Know what I mean?

 

 

IRT Seph:

 

It's not "different" in a way that your phrasing makes you look bad, or like you're spinning the argument.  It's very much different, given that it's a key component to that argument.  In fact, that basically was my argument - if he said he thought Zalanna/Kat was T/M, it makes sense to move Zalanna up as Kat moves down.  It doesn't make ANY sense to do it if you think they can be teammates.

 

This may not make sense to anyone but me, but he was treating what I call independent mafia reads as if they were dependent reads.

 

IRT Hallia: 

 

Not really.  Hallia's point is perfectly fair.  Yes, mafia can make perfectly fair points, but I don't understand why Wildfire flipping town would make Hallia any more likely to be mafia than sheer numbers.

[Andrej]

I'm not arguing her point isn't fair. And yes, hence why I said contingency plans. She's the next one up after those other four imo.

[Clovdyx]

 

AJ, why did you start the counterwagon the way you did? Because I'm looking at things again, and that might be the ONE thing this game you've done that I can't wrap my head around. You said you weren't going to tinfoil on me, and I'm trying to give you the same courtesy, but without having the benefit of actually having been in the thread when it all went down...that is a really strange spot.

What do you mean by the way I did?

 

After discussing with Cory in the morning and Darthe's posts getting considerably better from yesterday I was basically back to square one. It came down to BFG or Zalanna for me after more consideration. BFG was already well ahead in the VC and I didn't really feel the need to lump another vote on. I still had my reservations based on stuff we talked about and BFG had showed up and started posting in a way that I thought was constructive. I really think it boils down to bad circumstances irt Zalanna being absent and BFG showing up at the right time. I made a bad call and I acknowledge my responsibility in that because the Zalanna wagon probably doesn't become a thing if I just wagoned BFG like I was considering.

 

I messed up.

 

 

You said you were comfortable with BFG's lynch, so I don't know why you felt it was necessary to counterwagon with an hour left.  And the last thing you had said in terms of forming a read on either Zander or Alanna that I've seen was saying that they were trending upwards because you liked the content she had last night and that you felt her concern about Cory was real.

 

That would make me think that if you did feel a counterwagon was deserved that it wouldn't be them.

 

I'm actually thinking of switching like for real switching AJ

 

Maybe give BFG another day

 

Follow your heart Cory.

 

I'm still of the mind that her overall performance trends more towards her wolf game than not based on my experience, but at least she's here and the others are not.

 

That I have trouble with.

 

 

Here you're basically saying that you think she's more likely to be mafia for meta.  That's not a terrible point...but if that's the case, why does this read you're softly steering away from that lynch in favor of somebody who seemed to be an increasingly town read for you?  Did their absence really drop them down that much?

[Clovdyx]

I'm not arguing her point isn't fair. And yes, hence why I said contingency plans. She's the next one up after those other four imo.

 

That's not what your post suggests though.  You said Hallia's alignment hinges on Wildfire's.  That suggests that Wildfire flipping town tomorrow makes Hallia mafia, even though you still have enough people lower to fill out the mafia rand.

[Andrej]

Probably cause you're chasing ghosts. And yes, it had. Prior to that after catching up from my morning posts I saw it mentioned a few times about them being gone so it was definitely fresh on the brain. I remember one post from Darthe specifically where he said something along the lines of "what if we're all just being stupid and it's really the hydra" or something along those lines that stuck with me.

 

I did think Laine's posts last night were better than basically any of her previous content. But that alone wasn't enough for me to feel comfortable tabling them with everything else in mind in that situation where I had to decide.

 

BFG came back with good tone and didn't seem panicked at all about being wagoned. I made a split decision choice and stuck with it working in conjuction with other people who were around then, mainly Cory.

[Andrej]

 

I'm not arguing her point isn't fair. And yes, hence why I said contingency plans. She's the next one up after those other four imo.

That's not what your post suggests though. You said Hallia's alignment hinges on Wildfire's. That suggests that Wildfire flipping town tomorrow makes Hallia mafia, even though you still have enough people lower to fill out the mafia rand.

Okay let me be very clear for you then.

 

Wildfire being town makes it more likely Hallia is scum based on their developing interactions.

 

Better?

 

Like it's possible they are both town and Wildfire is just Dawnflowering and Hallia is rightfully countering her poor reads.

 

But that also means I'm exactly 100% correct on the wolf team being exactly BFG/Seph/Kat. While it's not impossible I am still going to consider that I'm not going 3/3 just cause and they are the next two people in my POE and currently at odds

[Andrej]

I should also add that read goes both ways.

 

If Wildfire is scum then her botched Hallia read should clear her.

[Clovdyx]

Probably cause you're chasing ghosts. And yes, it had. Prior to that after catching up from my morning posts I saw it mentioned a few times about them being gone so it was definitely fresh on the brain. I remember one post from Darthe specifically where he said something along the lines of "what if we're all just being stupid and it's really the hydra" or something along those lines that stuck with me.

 

I did think Laine's posts last night were better than basically any of her previous content. But that alone wasn't enough for me to feel comfortable tabling them with everything else in mind in that situation where I had to decide.

 

BFG came back with good tone and didn't seem panicked at all about being wagoned. I made a split decision choice and stuck with it working in conjuction with other people who were around then, mainly Cory.

 

I'm not chasing ghosts, I'm chasing answers.  You were more or less a catalyst in that lynch happening - one I made it very clear I would have accepted, but it wasn't anywhere near my top choices.  I'm not blaming you.  I'm not faulting you.  I'm just trying to make sense of what happened.  Three of the seven I'm great killing.  One's confirmed town.  

 

That leaves three, and you are the one that I by far have felt best about.  With you being the first to move off onto somebody your posts don't seem like you would have necessarily defaulted to, I'm kind of left scratching my head.

 

 

 

I'm not arguing her point isn't fair. And yes, hence why I said contingency plans. She's the next one up after those other four imo.

That's not what your post suggests though. You said Hallia's alignment hinges on Wildfire's. That suggests that Wildfire flipping town tomorrow makes Hallia mafia, even though you still have enough people lower to fill out the mafia rand.

Okay let me be very clear for you then.

 

Wildfire being town makes it more likely Hallia is scum based on their developing interactions.

 

Better?

 

Like it's possible they are both town and Wildfire is just Dawnflowering and Hallia is rightfully countering her poor reads.

 

But that also means I'm exactly 100% correct on the wolf team being exactly BFG/Seph/Kat. While it's not impossible I am still going to consider that I'm not going 3/3 just cause and they are the next two people in my POE and currently at odds

 

 

Well, it fits better with what you said. I strongly disagree, but I can accept that I have more confidence in Hallia at this point than you do.

[Clovdyx]

I should also add that read goes both ways.

 

If Wildfire is scum then her botched Hallia read should clear her.

 

That I completely agree with.

[Andrej]

I'm not saying I don't have confidence in Hallia and I stated pretty clearly head to head I think Hallia looks better. I am just postulating in the event that I have to continue looking outside of my immediate two suspects.

 

If BFG isn't a wolf after how EOD went down and her returning without anything to offer than I am just completely lost this game. I need to ISO Seph to shore up my read there but there's not a lot of in-thread progression to his reads (I know I'm guilty of this too, btw) but I think the positive point I made about him earlier being consistent with his suspects irt Kat/Zalanna doesn't have as much weight because he seemed to have Kat as the more scummy but then always worked back to having Zalanna as the higher scum read in the end, which we know now was at the very least wrong if not intentional.

 

I get that you have questions and for a second there I started to get a little agitated by that but that's not really fair. EOD was hectic and I went with my gut based on the thread flow at the time and I turned out to be wrong. It happens, but it's not something I don't plan on recovering from.

[Clovdyx]

I'm not saying I don't have confidence in Hallia and I stated pretty clearly head to head I think Hallia looks better. I am just postulating in the event that I have to continue looking outside of my immediate two suspects.

 

If BFG isn't a wolf after how EOD went down and her returning without anything to offer than I am just completely lost this game. I need to ISO Seph to shore up my read there but there's not a lot of in-thread progression to his reads (I know I'm guilty of this too, btw) but I think the positive point I made about him earlier being consistent with his suspects irt Kat/Zalanna doesn't have as much weight because he seemed to have Kat as the more scummy but then always worked back to having Zalanna as the higher scum read in the end, which we know now was at the very least wrong if not intentional.

 

I get that you have questions and for a second there I started to get a little agitated by that but that's not really fair. EOD was hectic and I went with my gut based on the thread flow at the time and I turned out to be wrong. It happens, but it's not something I don't plan on recovering from.

 

It does happen, and I think I've made it very clear that I'm pretty okay with people being wrong.  It's not the what - it's the why.  Your why sounds good enough I'm not going to bother stressing over it when I have a pretty sexy pile of people who haven't played a really nice game.

[Sooh]

Doctor's orders: 

 

COLD SHOWERS PEOPLE!! TAKE COLD SHOWERS!

[Darthe]

Slept on this, came back with some insight.

 

Hoping that as I write it it helps some of you follow my process a bit, especially irt eod yesterday and nightfall.

 

I wanna start by mentioning the mad respect I have for cory as a player. The dudes great at this game and I often feel in games with him that I only have a couple of chances to discern whether he is a wolf or not before momentum makes it impossible for me to get him lynched regardless.

 

In regards to yesterday, ive done.This before and I think sili has too. Cory getting pushed is backed by suspicion and that sense of urgency. Its a chance, a rare one, to flesh him out. However, thats nearly impossible and has been near impossible in easily a dozen games because his irl mindframe is, as he admits, pretty unstable amd he cant seem to handle the pressure without going into tirades that are filled with insults and AtE. Worse still, I've not seen a game where he did this that he want defended immediately by clov, hally, aj, laine, regy, or others precisely because of his mentality and absent of his play.

 

Do you know how frustrating it is to be pushed by several players to stop digging in a normal way when you feel that you've only a chance or two to do so in any game? It's as if all he has to do is cry wolf and now I have to get through all of you to play the game, all while I'm being insulted and belittled and etc, and this group does it regardless of what alignment they are. Now ur not all in it every game, but several people are, and I'm telling you that between that and his breakdowns which have no place here that its creating forum villains where they don't exist.

 

I, for one, was quite liked here pre cory. The only folks who really bickered with me we worked it out in a few games and moved on.

 

I should mention that ive had him rage at me before (not to this extent) and then flip wolf. Its not grounds to immediately back off.

 

So what im saying folks is that im not trying to be a collosal asshole, but im also not willing to give up on part of the game to satisfy someones whining because that player doesnt like to be a suspect. Thats a necessary part of mafia, one that most of us deal eith every game regardless of how well we feel we are showing ourselves as town.

 

I've more I want to say on this but it can wait for post game. Hopefully for now this will have the intended goal of "oh darthe isnt just a sadist trying to ruin our fun, maybe we shouldnt all gang up on him or irrationally protect the same guy every game"

[Darthe]

Slept on this, came back with some insight.

 

Hoping that as I write it it helps some of you follow my process a bit, especially irt eod yesterday and nightfall.

 

I wanna start by mentioning the mad respect I have for cory as a player. The dudes great at this game and I often feel in games with him that I only have a couple of chances to discern whether he is a wolf or not before momentum makes it impossible for me to get him lynched regardless.

 

In regards to yesterday, ive done.This before and I think sili has too. Cory getting pushed is backed by suspicion and that sense of urgency. Its a chance, a rare one, to flesh him out. However, thats nearly impossible and has been near impossible in easily a dozen games because his irl mindframe is, as he admits, pretty unstable amd he cant seem to handle the pressure without going into tirades that are filled with insults and AtE. Worse still, I've not seen a game where he did this that he want defended immediately by clov, hally, aj, laine, regy, or others precisely because of his mentality and absent of his play.

 

Do you know how frustrating it is to be pushed by several players to stop digging in a normal way when you feel that you've only a chance or two to do so in any game? It's as if all he has to do is cry wolf and now I have to get through all of you to play the game, all while I'm being insulted and belittled and etc, and this group does it regardless of what alignment they are. Now ur not all in it every game, but several people are, and I'm telling you that between that and his breakdowns which have no place here that its creating forum villains where they don't exist.

 

I, for one, was quite liked here pre cory. The only folks who really bickered with me we worked it out in a few games and moved on.

 

I should mention that ive had him rage at me before (not to this extent) and then flip wolf. Its not grounds to immediately back off.

 

So what im saying folks is that im not trying to be a collosal asshole, but im also not willing to give up on part of the game to satisfy someones whining because that player doesnt like to be a suspect. Thats a necessary part of mafia, one that most of us deal eith every game regardless of how well we feel we are showing ourselves as town.

 

I've more I want to say on this but it can wait for post game. Hopefully for now this will have the intended goal of "oh darthe isnt just a sadist trying to ruin our fun, maybe we shouldnt all gang up on him or irrationally protect the same guy every game"

[Darthe]

 

I'm not saying I don't have confidence in Hallia and I stated pretty clearly head to head I think Hallia looks better. I am just postulating in the event that I have to continue looking outside of my immediate two suspects.

 

If BFG isn't a wolf after how EOD went down and her returning without anything to offer than I am just completely lost this game. I need to ISO Seph to shore up my read there but there's not a lot of in-thread progression to his reads (I know I'm guilty of this too, btw) but I think the positive point I made about him earlier being consistent with his suspects irt Kat/Zalanna doesn't have as much weight because he seemed to have Kat as the more scummy but then always worked back to having Zalanna as the higher scum read in the end, which we know now was at the very least wrong if not intentional.

 

I get that you have questions and for a second there I started to get a little agitated by that but that's not really fair. EOD was hectic and I went with my gut based on the thread flow at the time and I turned out to be wrong. It happens, but it's not something I don't plan on recovering from.

It does happen, and I think I've made it very clear that I'm pretty okay with people being wrong. It's not the what - it's the why. Your why sounds good enough I'm not going to bother stressing over it when I have a pretty sexy pile of people who haven't played a really nice game.

Hey this reminds me, youve thought im a wolf to middling town at best in every game since I returned. What am I doing/not doing that keeps me from being tonwn.iye?

[Cory Caboose]

The people who are defending me aren't irrationally defending me, they are people who understand me well and are reading me correctly. What don't you get about that?

[Cory Caboose]

And they understand that if I'm properly utilized and have the ability to focus on improving my reads I can make a significantly positive impact for my team.

 

I don't care about your nostalgia for old DM. The people who have been playing here regularly over the past year / year and a half are people who enjoy playing here and enjoy the atmosphere. You don't get to change it just because you are back and you want rougher play. Almost every major mafia community has been implementing more intelligent player conduct rules because it's good for the health of the game.

 

I say this knowing I definetly violated such several times and if I were to be consequenced for it I would fully accept it.

[Darthe]

I hope you aren't going to get in any trouble man. I really do think that some folks just feel bad for you and defend that, though no doubt some read you well. I carefully don't though I've learned to recognize a few things, like that you have limits as a wolf and passed them here. Not a good way to make a read though, for us or the game.

 

As for my "old dm nostalgia", im here and I play my way. I happen to have liked it before and I like it now. What I dont like is being treated criminal for playing how I play. It was fine before, and that it isnt now is not my fault. Ive tried playing your way, and im not only less effective but i also dont enjoy it as much. Takes too much of my irl time. Mine works, so long as im not inhibited by half a thread, and it also tends to not devolve so far unless its me vs world.

[Darthe]

Clearly, not carefully

[Cory Caboose]

And if you think "Cory can't handle being suspected" you don't know what you are talking about. Read AJ's post - I've been suspected by more than half the players in the game at some point. Me suspecting Zander/Laine was independent from their feelings on me and I had no problem handling them respectfully even if we disagreed. BFG, Clov, AJ, Regy, even the SiRReN thing was about the joking "dunce cap" comment and had nothing to do with the game.

 

There's a fundamental difference between "suspecting me" and how you and Sili have acted.

[Cory Caboose]

It doesn't matter - I can't be on DM anymore after this game. This has been mortifying for me.

 

I'm here until my contract with this game ends. A lot of villagers have played very well and deserve help and so that's what I'm going to attempt to do, but there is no enjoyment left for me to have in this game. This is 100% work and stress for me.

[Darthe]

And if you think "Cory can't handle being suspected" you don't know what you are talking about. Read AJ's post - I've been suspected by more than half the players in the game at some point. Me suspecting Zander/Laine was independent from their feelings on me and I had no problem handling them respectfully even if we disagreed. BFG, Clov, AJ, Regy, even the SiRReN thing was about the joking "dunce cap" comment and had nothing to do with the game.

 

There's a fundamental difference between "suspecting me" and how you and Sili have acted.

Mind showing what's different? I in particular Adm more aggressive than the average player, but im failing to see how there's anything wrong with that.

[Darthe]

Guys what im missing irt bfg is that I dont know her meta at all, at least not what you're relating. She disappears as wolf?

[Cory Caboose]

Sili has been constantly throwing the Z lynch in my face and rubbing it in when I already clearly feel terrible about it. Far past the point of me being wrong - which happens in an educated guessing game - but to the point where the only answer is that I'm a wolf or I am a terrible player. I am neither. I make poor decisions sometimes, yes, but I'm resilient as hell that's always been my redeeming quality.

 

You and I have made more than a few out of the game snipes at each other. Some of that was totally me, brain comment etc. - and I felt bad and apologized. You about my personality, my attitude, the holier-than-thou quips and generally dripping disdain. I've read everything on your posts.