[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

[alannalynn]

My issue Laine, is I havnt deserved that spot and I am wary of people who townread me for doing nothing. See, I try to ingratiate myself to Cory all the time in games because I know if he I have him thinking im town, he will go to bat for me against all odds. I do this regardless of alignment. One of the ways I do this is by encouraging his ego and townreading him almost every game.

 

So I get wary when people hard town read me for things I dont see as towny. For doing nothing. It gives me the willies, like they just want me on their side.

I see what you're saying, just just accept the damn town read and get over it.

 

Additionally, what do I gain by trying to get you on my side? I could just as easily top town read Zander or Pizza and buddy them, or even a different player who I think will have a lot of sway with the town. But why, if were going under the assumption that I'm doing this to gain your favor, would I choose you?

[Lenlo]

I. Dont. Know.

 

And it bugs me. So my solution? Im going to go to sleep and hope when I see Jay Lenos smiling face in the morning, I know what to do.

[Shad_]

 

 

#278 Turin, I want to point out that this is now a false meta on Lenlo. He's been changing how he plays. Zander comments on this #363 too, and I agree with his statement. Lenlo all growed up now

I assume you meant #287, I recognize that Lenlo's game has improved but what is false about Turin's statement?

 

Yes it was 287, oops.

 

I said false because that's not necessarily Lenlo's meta anymore. Turin is commenting as if Lenlo is here just to be the life of the party, but he's actually started becoming a solid player who is good for the town. Just seems an outdated meta to supply on thread and that's why Zander and I called it out.

 

 

 

 

 

@ Cass, I would say that Lenlo posting in that manner is completely null for him (1). Also too early for it to mean anything about Shad as they were basically the only two in thread at that time (2).

Ty! (*Numbers added to points for reference)

1) What differences would you expect from Lenlo as either alignment?

2) Do you have a read on either?

 

In that particular jokey exchange I would expect Len to be exactly the same in either alignment. He loves to have fun with the other players even if it makes him potentially look bad. The fun is (or at least was) more important to him. That is why I said it is completely null.

 

Now if at a later time he tries to use that read as valid then I would find him most suspicious.

 

 

Ok, well, I didn't get the "just the life of the party" idea from Turin. I got that Lenlo enjoys joking around and isn't worries about people misinterpreting it regardless of his alignment. I think this is generally true and stands independent of improvements to Lenlo's game, though tbf I never knew the "old" Lenlo so if he did the salami lolcat thing a lot then I can see where you're coming from. Turin's observation that Lenlo pressing it as a serious read later would be scummy is absolutely true, though the odds of that happening after forewarning from multiple players is approximately non-existent.

[alannalynn]

I. Dont. Know.

 

And it bugs me. So my solution? Im going to go to sleep and hope when I see Jay Lenos smiling face in the morning, I know what to do.

LOL I need to sleep too, soonish. Goodnight Lenlo

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

What vote?

The one where I dropped in, voted Celeste with no reason or build up at all, and then didnt answer questions about it.

 

 

I must have seen it, but I had essentially zero reaction to it. Didn't even register.

 

I have you as a villager for mainly tone reasons and you voted for someone I have a blank on why they're a townie, and generic indicators they may have randed scum. But nothing solid.

 

Celeste gives me the distinct impression I can't read her at all, far too closed. She might be an all game long project.

 

I doubt very much I could possibly read her well today.

 

[Shad_]

You seem offended that people are town reading you. But the point is that you're here and you're interacting with people and in real time. I guess I can say that you seem to be playing very relaxed as opposed to how you seemed in Matrix, though Zander /was/ attacking you the whole start of the game. lol

 

 

Lenlo is practically lock town after his recent stunt, but shhhhh, don't tell him.

 

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

My issue Laine, is I havnt deserved that spot and I am wary of people who townread me for doing nothing. See, I try to ingratiate myself to Cory all the time in games because I know if he I have him thinking im town, he will go to bat for me against all odds. I do this regardless of alignment. One of the ways I do this is by encouraging his ego and townreading him almost every game.

 

So I get wary when people hard town read me for things I dont see as towny. For doing nothing. It gives me the willies, like they just want me on their side.

 

There's a difference between doing work and acting like a townie.

 

Doing work is often a scum's way of justifying their continued drawing of breath.

 

Townies have to try to solve the game to win it, but if they fail at doing so, it doesn't mean they're not a townie.

 

Whether their process is good, accurate, or nonexistent, that's not always alignment indicative. In fact there's only a loose correlation between doing townie work and actually being a townie.

 

A good town is one that is accurate and is doing some kind of process to lynch wolves, but a good townie can often just be a townie who is town-telling.

[Shad_]

I wouldn't lynch Laine today as things stand, I don't think.  I'm not sold yet but I like her tone in the catch-up if not all of the points she's raising.  I'm down to give it time, let her potential town game ramp up.  Hopefully DL won't be set for a while yet.

 

Kaylee can convince me through her actions.

 

Turin and I need to talk a bit.

 

Celeste is a closed book.

[Shad_]

I let some wine get the better of me time-wise, need to address an issue from earlier today concerning my p1 posts and then I'm off to bed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I do need all the townies who survive to the late late game to have demonstrated some kind of scum finding process.

 

If you exist at that point in the game and have demonstrated no giving of any ducks at any point in the process of finding a wolf, that's probably the reason why you're there. You're either a wolf or you've been unthreatening to them, and it's really tough to tell the difference between a closed townie and a low-posting wolf.

 

I like the game to be solvable by analysis, not a coin flip.

[Askthepizzaguy]

#Earnthatmurder

[Cass]

Sup. 20 pages behind. 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hi Cass

 

I'll be on here for a little bit but I'm pretty sure nap time is coming.

 

Let me know what you see that's changing from your reads yesterday to when you get caught up, if anything changes.

 

Come to think of it I don't know what your reads were at the time and I'm far too busy to look.

[alannalynn]

 

 

 

 

#278 Turin, I want to point out that this is now a false meta on Lenlo. He's been changing how he plays. Zander comments on this #363 too, and I agree with his statement. Lenlo all growed up now

I assume you meant #287, I recognize that Lenlo's game has improved but what is false about Turin's statement?

 

Yes it was 287, oops.

 

I said false because that's not necessarily Lenlo's meta anymore. Turin is commenting as if Lenlo is here just to be the life of the party, but he's actually started becoming a solid player who is good for the town. Just seems an outdated meta to supply on thread and that's why Zander and I called it out.

 

 

 

 

 

@ Cass, I would say that Lenlo posting in that manner is completely null for him (1). Also too early for it to mean anything about Shad as they were basically the only two in thread at that time (2).

Ty! (*Numbers added to points for reference)

1) What differences would you expect from Lenlo as either alignment?

2) Do you have a read on either?

 

In that particular jokey exchange I would expect Len to be exactly the same in either alignment. He loves to have fun with the other players even if it makes him potentially look bad. The fun is (or at least was) more important to him. That is why I said it is completely null.

 

Now if at a later time he tries to use that read as valid then I would find him most suspicious.

 

 

 

Ok, well, I didn't get the "just the life of the party" idea from Turin. I got that Lenlo enjoys joking around and isn't worries about people misinterpreting it regardless of his alignment. I think this is generally true and stands independent of improvements to Lenlo's game, though tbf I never knew the "old" Lenlo so if he did the salami lolcat thing a lot then I can see where you're coming from. Turin's observation that Lenlo pressing it as a serious read later would be scummy is absolutely true, though the odds of that happening after forewarning from multiple players is approximately non-existent.

I was trying to find a post in an earlier game that relates to what I'm trying to explain but I'm not quite getting there and it's more than way past my bedtime. ANYWAYS, Lenlo used to be a floater and never really added much to the game. He was here to hang out and joke around and probably be a mislynch day 1. Now, since his improvements, he's town telling and actively getting involved in the game. That has resulted in the extension of his life in games as well as the development of a strong town player.

 

 

You seem offended that people are town reading you. But the point is that you're here and you're interacting with people and in real time. I guess I can say that you seem to be playing very relaxed as opposed to how you seemed in Matrix, though Zander /was/ attacking you the whole start of the game. lol

 

 

Lenlo is practically lock town after his recent stunt, but shhhhh, don't tell him.

 

Lol your spoilers are fooling no one

 

I wouldn't lynch Laine today as things stand, I don't think.  I'm not sold yet but I like her tone in the catch-up if not all of the points she's raising.  I'm down to give it time, let her potential town game ramp up.  Hopefully DL won't be set for a while yet.

 

Kaylee can convince me through her actions.

 

Turin and I need to talk a bit.

 

Celeste is a closed book.

Can't say I disagree

[alannalynn]

Pizza, Cass, we'll talk tomorrow? Goodnight all

[Cass]

 

So you townread him more because he didnt try to manipulate anyone with his response about meta?

 

Yes. I felt his play in the previous game was more about coloring people's perceptions and skating through to D2.

 

 

@Lenlo. 

 

Do you have a reads on Pizza/Shad?

 

I don't mind Pizza's take on this despite initially thinking Shad's avoidance of meta question was possibly sus.

Noted and watching this space.

[Cass]

Hi Cass

 

I'll be on here for a little bit but I'm pretty sure nap time is coming.

 

Let me know what you see that's changing from your reads yesterday to when you get caught up, if anything changes.

 

Come to think of it I don't know what your reads were at the time and I'm far too busy to look.

 

Kk. Got 20 mins or so before dinner and then whatever I can manage after night-time routine. Full on day so won't be here all night.

 

I haven't done a full reads list, last night was just concentrating on chucking out every thought/question in my head on anything that stood out.

 

Watch this space.

 

 

Pizza, Cass, we'll talk tomorrow? Goodnight all

 

Ninight Lainey.

[Cass]

 

I have a question for all of you

 

You are on the side of a road walking down the sidewalk.

You have a gun with 1 bullet in it.

Two people are walking towards you.

The one on your left has a baseball bat the other is wearing a cowboy hat.

Who do you shoot?

Umm what does this prove Nolder? Seems like pointless WIFOM.

 

 

Uhhh, Penny? Your Tone has changed :P

 

Last game Penny asked random entry question thing like this herself when Town.

 

I have no problem her questioning Nolder/stating it seems like WIFOM.

 

The Umm is unnecessary to the question and a change in style/tone from last game.  

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zander-

 

Are you trying to pocket me?

 

I get that you're not pushing me today, just poking a little with a stick. It should be null given you just discussed giving me more time before the rand.

 

I get the sense that you're finding reasons to call me town and putting me in your top townie slot almost as a command decision rather than anything else.

 

Is this true? It doesn't necessarily mean you're a wolf if so. It's just the impression I'm getting. As if you're specifically taking a different approach and arriving at square 100 without doing all the hopscotch in the middle, just because it's simpler.

[Shad_]

 

 

 

 

 

Shad, please attempt to describe your take on Lenlo's meta.

First ya Id like to hear your thoughts on Len's Meta.....and mine as well!!!!!!

Summarize everything I think I know about how Lenlo thinks and behaves as town vs as scum?

That's a long exercise, and one I find borderline counterproductive at this stage, and I don't really think of people as a list of dos and don'ts in the first place. The whole value of a meta read is that it allows you to catch people being dishonest in subtle ways that are not objectively alignment indicative.

I'll call what I see when I see it.

 

@Shad re the bold.
I think it's more important that you explain why you see what you see when asked.
I don't need an entire explanation of Lenlo's meta (though I'd like it!).

What I want to know is what you saw/were thinking when you said Lenlo was Town. This response feels like you're avoiding explanation of your read.

 

 

 

 

 

Shad, please attempt to describe your take on Lenlo's meta.

First ya Id like to hear your thoughts on Len's Meta.....and mine as well!!!!!!

Summarize everything I think I know about how Lenlo thinks and behaves as town vs as scum?
That's a long exercise, and one I find borderline counterproductive at this stage, and I don't really think of people as a list of dos and don'ts in the first place. The whole value of a meta read is that it allows you to catch people being dishonest in subtle ways that are not objectively alignment indicative.
I'll call what I see when I see it.

 

[v]Shad[/v]

 

Why are you voting Shad?

 

I think he is mafia. Do you think he is town?

He came out and said he had good meta on Lenlo. When asked to elaborate, he refused to do so. The story he told was gobbledygook to me. It leads me to believe he was merely making it up. I don't see a good reason to do that as town.

 

 

We'll start with the course of events:

I came into the game claiming that I felt I had good meta on Zander, Laine, Lenlo, and Nolder. Lenlo asked me to explain my meta on him. I told him it doesn't really work that way.

Then we started joking around, and the event concluded with both of us jokingly calling the other lock town. I followed this up by saying: "I almost want to legit town read you for saying that when I did."

A number of people +1'd Lenlo's initial question about meta, and we arrive at the two quotes above.

First, meta: I have seen these players as town multiple times. I have seen these players as scum multiple times. I am aware of subtle distinctions, sometimes consciously but more often on the gut level. I am aware of how they tend to process information, and have a higher probability of pinpointing certain posts as clearly dishonest or beyond the scope of their scum game. That is meta. It is not something I can summarize, and it's not something that really comes into play when there is literally zero content from the subject to work with. Content is absolutely necessary, unless someone's scum tell is they never show up to the game and immediately request a sub, or some such nonsense. It is not something I would write a book on, both because I couldn't articulate a lot of it and because it's not in our vested interest for me to hand a player "Shad's Guide to Convincing Shad to Hard Defend You When You are Scum". As a matter of fact, I'm still kicking myself for recently telling a player pretty much "this is exactly how you can fool me", because it renders me less capable of trusting reads based on that behavior. Even if the player is wholly incapable of replicating anything I tell them, it's counterproductive for the simple reason that I can't know this and will not be able to correctly town read them as easily in the future.

So anyway, no, I don't have an answer to "What is Lenlo's meta" and I frankly think it's a stupid, overgeneralized question.

However, I did make a statement later which might be misunderstood to sugggest I had some sort of read on Lenlo which could potentially be based on meta. I was well aware of this. The process was thus: I had fun with a player and we both made the same joke at the same time, telling me that our heads were in the same place about something.  That feels good, and the natural inclination is always to call it town, so I typed a post accordingly but thought a (very brief) moment before submitting.  It stemmed from a null encounter, and considering I have seen Lenlo in particular joke around freely as scum, it was an incredibly null reaction.  But rather than saying nothing, I dropped the statement with an "almost". It's not a real read. It's an "I wish I could" read. But I knew it would draw attention, and I wanted that.

It was never a read at all, and if anything was meta based it was my hesitance to make it a read. I think most scum would struggle somewhat to joke so freely at the start of a game and drop a hard "x is town" statement even when it's clearly in jest. They get nervous that it might draw unwanted attention. But scum!Lenlo probably wouldn't let that phase him (to his credit).

Cass, as it seems to me, saw the numerous questions @ me regarding Lenlo's meta out of context. She saw my potential read on Lenlo, then saw the questions, then saw me to decline to answer, and she made the mental leap to "Shad wants us to think he has a meta-based town read on Lenlo, but he choked when asked to explain it". That's a townie thought process. I believe it probably really was Cass's thought process, because of the sequence in which she engaged the topic. She commented on the exchange between us, then she commented on my response to the meta question, and she never looked back to notice that the meta question originated prior to the exchange.

Turin is in quite the opposite boat. To the best of my memory, he was the first to resurrect Lenlo's initial question. He could not have gotten there without necessarily seeing that it came prior to our exchange. So he had no obvious accidental reason to believe that my "I wish I could" read on Lenlo was meta-based.  This conclusion would take, for him, a slightly further stretch.  And while I didn't have an opportunity to prod him for the origin of why he brought up this question, he never mixed my conversation with Lenlo into the picture. He simply said he thought I was scum for failing to produce a breakdown of Lenlo's scum game vs his town game after I'd claimed to read him well, and that was the end of that. It's incredibly lazy. I don't know that it's dishonest, but it certainly doesn't feel honest. I don't like it. And there is always the question of would scum do something so meh right out the gate. In my experience: often enough that I'm not going to give a player I'm unfamiliar with any sort of pass here. Town!Turin needs to prove to me that his vote was honest, by explaining exactly what was going through his head then and now. You're up.

[Shad_]

Going to bed, glgl

[Shad_]

Question for the road.

 

Pizza, who is your town?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Me, Cass, Shad, Lenlo.

 

Laine and Zander both have applications which are pending, and I am pursuing those with extreme diligence. It's wearing me out in fact.

The Zander question is haunting me because I was able to put him into a strong town camp in the past several games he was a townie.

 

After reading the hell out of Belichick and reading the hell out of him this game, over and over, I conclude that he's different here than he was in Belichick. However he's grown and developed since then.

 

I want to peek back again at Matrix and see what I can see, before admitting him into my village. But, I'm leaning that way.

 

I want a solid post from Zander that pushes me irrevocably in that direction. Like, I completely nailed one two games ago, and made the game much easier to read. He got ate in fact.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Laine i will pursue with much vigor assuming this drowsiness I'm feeling right now isn't my brain shutting off for good due to an overdose of Zandernol PM.

 

If she gains entry it will be an epic battle among those lower on the list for the right to not die immediately. For I am lord judge jury and hopefully executioner of wolves.

[Turin Turambar]

I just got caught up for a minute. I have  few minutes right now while tidying the house. I will respond to Shad's last post first. Then if have time will go back and respond to Laine and some other things I noticed. 

 

First off the jokey interaction from the both of you had nothing to do with my vote. It was completely to do with your coming out and stating that you had something to read Len by but then refusing to elaborate. False promises (to me) are something more likely to come from mafia than town. You call it lazy I call it simple. Maybe I am too "shallow" for you but it is my experience that mafia will do whatever they think can help them win.  sometimes they will even do things in early game that are nothing more than a tweak at the town. I have done it. Len has done it. I would be surprised if you haven't done it. 

 

You say you don't know if it is dishonest but you don't think it is honest. This is a nudge. Make a choice. Take a stand. change it later if you think it is justified. You say you don't like it but imo your reasoning is a bunch of doubletalk. Again this is more likely to come from mafia than town.