World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Lenlo]

Its as if all of those posts were trying to explain to dice why his logic was wrong, because his math was more confusing than my Linear Algebra course!

[Shad_]

 

 

Shad, Pizzas intro didnt bother me. I was simply agreeing with Dice that its not bad to judge someone based off their OP, like Sooh was suggesting.

 

TBH 2/3 of the games I play in I make my OP before checking my role PM.

 

Really? I always check my role pm and my QT if I have one before posting.

 

 

It gives me a chuckle.  My OPs are necessarily null posts but a town still susses me for them from time to time.  Interestingly enough, the two OPs I took the most heat for--Alien and AoL--were when I did check first and rolled in knowing I was town.

 

Could be worse.  In US I did my full catch-up on the first 40 pages or so before checking who my team mates were because I figured with that many players if I ended up reading my whole team scum lololol gg.

[Lenlo]

 

 

 

Shad, Pizzas intro didnt bother me. I was simply agreeing with Dice that its not bad to judge someone based off their OP, like Sooh was suggesting.

 

TBH 2/3 of the games I play in I make my OP before checking my role PM.

 

Really? I always check my role pm and my QT if I have one before posting.

 

 

It gives me a chuckle.  My OPs are necessarily null posts but a town still susses me for them from time to time.  Interestingly enough, the two OPs I took the most heat for--Alien and AoL--were when I did check first and rolled in knowing I was town.

 

Could be worse.  In US I did my full catch-up on the first 40 pages or so before checking who my team mates were because I figured with that many players if I ended up reading my whole team scum lololol gg.

 

Lol. I may give this a shot sometime, to see what its like.

[Askthepizzaguy]

A large part of the reason why you looked scummy to me, is that a large number of your posts were not hunting.

 

There was the usual fluff and pleasantries, we all have those.

 

We had a long mechanical discussion about the game, and a talk about two vote counts wasn't all that was suggested.

 

You and Dice got into a quarrel.

 

I remember all this without looking back.

 

You had sharp questions for Dice, I didn't agree with the premise of, but they were there. The follow up wasn't.

 

If that was that, I could chalk it up to your mind was fixating on the one subject matter, but I also remember you were gone for a while, or pages and pages went by, and when you came back you weren't hunting still.

 

My memory isn't as sharp as it should be, and that's why taking notes is what helps me piece things together.

 

That's a lot of posts from start of game to that point in the game which avoid the matter of looking for scums that hard.

 

In all that nonsense that just went down on both sides, because a lot of your arguments weren't fair-minded and I responded in kind, I'll admit, there is another piece that was overlooked:

 

I saw what looked like scum leans on Dice during your argument. You walked it back, or clarified that it was null, not scum.

 

Okay, I'm following you there.

 

But during our argument you brought up Dice again, and questioned me about the validity of his math.

 

I still don't understand why.

 

Why I say you are using red herrings is just one example, that.

 

Are you saying Dice is scummy for his math there? Or are you trying to get others to draw that conclusion?

 

If no, then what did it have to do with you and me? What did it have to do with my points against you?

 

I don't know how A connects to B on that.

 

If you're going to argue dishonestly, I'm going to dig in.

 

If these are honest misunderstandings, the onus is on you to walk me through them, because I've already said that I don't understand the connections between what you were saying and what deals with the alignments of persons in this guessing game.

 

And furthermore, if you want quality responses to your posts, you might spend more than 5 seconds composing them.

 

That real-time we just had felt like garbage (no personal offense) because it felt a lot like you were just throwing whatever you could at the spur of the moment at me, and not a lot of it was very sound.

 

So slow it down. Show me how it was sound.

 

Or, do as I suggested if I'm a big ball of scum, show your village how it was sound.

 

I'm a villager and I'll listen with an open mind if you do.

 

That's all I can give you. You're my top scum read because of what you do, not because I decided I wanted to annoy Lenlo today.

[Askthepizzaguy]

^

All of that above post is meant to reach Town-Lenlo if he's in there.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If history tells me anything, most folks in the game are going to ignore our quarrel, just like they glossed over the one with you and Dice.

 

You might get an interested party or two.

 

So if it's just a quiet room with you, me, and Zander in it, maybe we would be better off resolving one piece at a time, since we're the only ones who will try to make sense of it.

 

Food for thought.

[Askthepizzaguy]

probably got me for another hour max. Prolly 30 m

 

6am no sleep yet.

[Lenlo]

gimme a minute im here.

[Zander?]

If history tells me anything, most folks in the game are going to ignore our quarrel, just like they glossed over the one with you and Dice.

 

You might get an interested party or two.

 

So if it's just a quiet room with you, me, and Zander in it, maybe we would be better off resolving one piece at a time, since we're the only ones who will try to make sense of it.

 

Food for thought.

 

 

Its like Ive been watching a Spanish Soap Opera...i mean its been funny as hell to watch but has made little to no sense to me!!!!! 

 

lolololololololol

[Shad_]

 

A wolf who earns the "second VC" bullet isn't terribly deep though.

I didn't say they would be, but deeper than their partner the probable day lynchee.

 

But you kind of did.

 

In some games there is a possibility of a "deep wolf", a wolf so townie they'll slide right on by.

It was your entrypoint for the argument as to why scum benefit more than town from a runner-up vote count.

 

And I suppose it's a somewhat trivial distinction, but you've yet to convince me that you aren't just making up your answers on the fly.

[Shad_]

fwiw I say that with your entire 5ish page chat with Lenlo ahead of me yet.

[Lenlo]

I brought up Dices math because to me it seemed like that part of your case on me depended on the fact that I was subtly laying out that Dice was scum so everyone else could lynch him for me.

 

I brought it up because I wanted to show that was not the case. There were two different convos going on there. One about mechanics and the other, later on, about Dices reactions. During the mechanics talk I wasnt trying to resolve his slot, I was focusing purely on the mechanics because I like to focus on one topic at a time. After that talk, Dice voted me because I annoyed him/wasnt listening to his opinion even though his math was for his logic was horrible. Its at this point that I get into it with Dice, because his vote on me was garbage and at the time he wasnt reacting very well at all.

 

I did not want our conversation to focus on Dice, I did not want to shift our conversation to Dice, if that is what you thought I was doing. I wanted to reach back to my convo with him and show why I was getting into with him and why I was frustrated with him that I used the bold and caps since that seems to be a good bit of your problem with me.

 

To be frank, I am quite frustrated with you atm because you go on and on about honesty with posts but from my perspective you seem to be twisting my words. Yeah, I dont compose my posts as much as you, but thats because I dont want to limit what I post. I used to compose my posts, or atleast try to, and it always lead to people saying I was trying to hard to sound town, that everything I said sounded forced or unnatural. So I decided to switch to the other side and just say whats on my mind. Yeah it has its problems, but its less problems than what I did before and the problems also arnt as bad.

[Shad_]

I'm responding to your posts in seconds, and you're bringing up distractions, and you're calling it ignoring.

 

This is why real time is important.

 

Wolves resort to confusing the issues, and it only appears to be an equal fight on the surface, because you're spending all your time attacking, as am I.

 

But there's a difference between our attacks. Mine are honest, and are leading to a premise, whereas yours are pointing away and attempting to conflate and attempting to create sameness where there are differences.

 

That's the dishonesty.

 

That's the difference.

fwiw I did kind of get the impression you were blowing him off and mostly shouting wolf

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

A wolf who earns the "second VC" bullet isn't terribly deep though.

I didn't say they would be, but deeper than their partner the probable day lynchee.

 

But you kind of did.

 

In some games there is a possibility of a "deep wolf", a wolf so townie they'll slide right on by.

It was your entrypoint for the argument as to why scum benefit more than town from a runner-up vote count.

 

And I suppose it's a somewhat trivial distinction, but you've yet to convince me that you aren't just making up your answers on the fly.

I don't feel like you're understanding my argument, so you're contrasting two disparate parts of it inappropriately because you don't understand what I meant, and think they conflict.

 

How do I explain this. Simplify simplify

 

My premise is in a typical game, there can be a deep wolf sometimes, or they'll try to create one.

 

Suppose that the lynchee is a townie, but thinks the deep wolf is scum. Most people don't think the deep wolf is scum, that's why he's the deep wolf.

 

Suppose the lynchee dies and shoots the deep wolf. Alright, now that's bad, because what you have remaining are wolves that more townies actually think are wolves.

 

So how do you combat it?

 

If you have a heads-up that deep wolf could get shot, you don't hard town read him. Maybe start distancing sooner.

 

Shad, I'm a townie, and this makes absolutely 100 percent perfect sense in my head.

 

I understand my thought processes don't register in other people's brains at times. But I am not making this up on the fly. It is internally consistent, if you start with the premise of, what if the lynchee can suddenly fire back, which is the difference between this game and the usual.

 

A running tally of who the lynchee should shoot if town, could be used to give the wolves a heads up who they shouldn't town-read so hard.

 

Now, that's speaking from the perspective of a guy who has an intuitive feel for the usual dynamics, and my reaction to what the differences here could be, and how I'd exploit them if I'm in the shoes of someone who can't exactly silence a townie by lynching them.

 

How you get from there to where you're at is pure misunderstanding. Or I didn't explain my thought process well which contributed to it. I don't know.

 

It makes sense in my head. If it still doesn't in yours, I gotta shrug. I'll continue explaining if you're still not understanding.

[Shad_]

 

OMG ZANDER

 

YOU'RE OVER 9000

 

OMW OMW OMW!!!!!

 

I AM!!!!

 

ID LIKE TO THANK GOD, MY LORD AND SAVIOR!!!! I'D ALSO LIKE TO THANK DM FOR NOT BANNING ME FOR SPAMMING!!!!  I LIKE TO THANK MAFIA FOR BEING SO DAMN ADDICTIVE!!!!  ID LIKE TO MORE IMPORTANTLY LIKE TO THANK ALL THE AMAZING FRANDS IVE MADE HERE <3 :wub:

 

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY ID LIKE TO THANK MYSELF FOR BEING GOAT!!!!!

 

 

lolololololololol

 

Cory is crying himself to sleep tonight.

[Askthepizzaguy]

fwiw I did kind of get the impression you were blowing him off and mostly shouting wolf

Was it justified or not justified? I was blowing him off and shouting wolf, where appropriate.

 

Judge me on specifics, not impressions. Go back. What was he saying that merited serious consideration? What was he saying that was pretty much shouting whatever was in the kitchen sink, what was distractions, what was dishonest argument?

 

In mafia games, you can just sit there and shout at someone and grasp at straws and make those posts come really fast.

 

Look at the timestamps of those posts. If you weren't there, I can tell you the reactions to my posts were superficial, and what he was demanding in his posts involved a lot of changing the subject, or misrepresentation, things which take longer to deconstruct. Specious arguments look okay on the surface but take time to deconstruct.

 

I've got all the time in the world right now to deconstruct, but I wasn't going to sit and be bookish, that moment of the game was great for generating more data on my top suspect. I was going to hang in there and blow-by-blow.

 

But I wasn't going to be chased off by every red herring or dishonest argument. In the moment, all I could do was point it out, and slug it out.

 

If Lenlo is scum, and a lot of the time, arguments such as those come from scum, the discussion was happening too quickly for a scumbag to really fake a townie brainwave well.

 

Now, after the fact, he's got to be able to explain it all, perfectly, in a manner which makes honest sense.

 

If you're pulling stuff out of your butt in the moment to try to superficially argue, those explanations will be awkward now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Shad-

 

I would try to be a deep wolf this game, not brawl with Lenlo who, if I'm scum, I know is a townie, and I know he will shoot me.

 

If I knew all of that in advance, I wouldn't have essentially outright guaranteed i die before day two, while having piled so many hours into reads I would know are bullshit that no one will look at after they are immediately futile to confuse anyone with.

 

What's the point of spending hours and hours and hours on this game on something that will mean nothing as quickly as possible?

 

Why did I meticulously craft fake notes which are utterly useless because I also wanted to make myself Lenlo's top target and will fool nobody now?

 

Why Pizzaguy isn't a wolf this game. The sad part is, this is so basic and so obviously true that I should be 100% clear on everyone's scum list, and that's not what's going to happen next.

[Askthepizzaguy]

All I accomplish today, even if I were a wolf and fooled people, is to get a townie, and then die N1.

 

That's a lot of work to create futility. I owe my scum team a whole lot more than THAT as a teammate.

 

The inverse isn't true, Lenlo's aggression didn't pick up until after he was voted by a bunch of persons. That's why the mirror image argument doesn't work.

[Zander?]

Shad-

 

I would try to be a deep wolf this game, not brawl with Lenlo who, if I'm scum, I know is a townie, and I know he will shoot me.

 

If I knew all of that in advance, I wouldn't have essentially outright guaranteed i die before day two, while having piled so many hours into reads I would know are bullshit that no one will look at after they are immediately futile to confuse anyone with.

 

What's the point of spending hours and hours and hours on this game on something that will mean nothing as quickly as possible?

 

Why did I meticulously craft fake notes which are utterly useless because I also wanted to make myself Lenlo's top target and will fool nobody now?

 

Why Pizzaguy isn't a wolf this game. The sad part is, this is so basic and so obviously true that I should be 100% clear on everyone's scum list, and that's not what's going to happen next.

 

 

Nope its unfortunately not my brother.....

[Lenlo]

See Pizza, I feel that you you got into with me and once my lynch didnt immediately go through, you were stuck. You didnt plan on having it take this long to get me and so no you cant back down. Not without a long drawn out process of slowly reeling it in, so that once I get lynched you can say I was a tossup or something.

 

You can keep saying its sad that the rest us arnt as smart as you or arntseeing you for the messiah of mafia you are, but it all boils down to you. Your saying its my job to prove to you im a village? Well its your job to do the same to everyone else. You dont get change your playstyle every game as you say you do and then expect to be universally town read.

[Shad_]

I mean, you can disagree, BUT HOW IN THE WORLD COULD THAT IDEA NOT BE PRO-TOWN

Maybe you're scum and you want to know if he's reading one of your team mates dirty so you can proactively distance in case he gets lynched and decides to hero on one of your partners instead of drilling you? 

 

And no, of course I don't believe that.  I can't help but think that our discussion implies that you might?  Maybe I'm being dense.

[Shad_]

I generally think Lenlo is town and find Pizza's push scummy in a vacuum, but scum!Pizza would be pretty much throwing the game at this point if Lenlo's town, and I expect he's farsighted enough to not get caught up in an argument that will secure his death on N1.  Meh.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I challenge you that it is, Zanderino.

 

Walk with me.

 

Step 1: put a ton of suspicion on Lenlo, a looooooot more than is usual for day one scum leans. I also invest a lot of time in the game itself.

 

Step 2: put a third vote on Lenlo, and make more posts than anyone else about how he was scum (before he came back)

 

I should now be the main focus of Lenlo the townie.

 

But it doesn't stop there.

 

Step 3: Lenlo responds, and I respond, and we brawl. During this, I'm quite antagonistic (as is he) and we mutually agree that if one dies, the other dies.

 

Okay.

 

What was step one again? Investing a lot of time in the game itself.

 

What am I trying to accomplish there?

 

Get town-read by a lot of people. Fool people. For I am Askthepizzaguy master of the poker face and the fake townie-ness and you can't read me, tra-lah-lah.

 

Right, that's my scum playbook.

 

So how does antagonizing Lenlo a lot and digging that he's gonna shoot me back hole accomplish the whole fooling of the townies objective?

 

What's my agenda here? Can't be long-term survival, which is the aim of the deepwolf. Can't be fooling people into doing anything except mislynching one whole townie, which was gonna happen anyway most of the time.

 

Even a regular wolf who isn't deep probably wants to trade himself for more than one townie.

 

Zander, Lenlo just isn't that frigging important, man. No offense to Lenlo. But Askthepizzaguy-the-wolf is worth way more to the wolf team than Lenlo's head.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

I mean, you can disagree, BUT HOW IN THE WORLD COULD THAT IDEA NOT BE PRO-TOWN

Maybe you're scum and you want to know if he's reading one of your team mates dirty so you can proactively distance in case he gets lynched and decides to hero on one of your partners instead of drilling you?

 

And no, of course I don't believe that. I can't help but think that our discussion implies that you might? Maybe I'm being dense.

 

It was a callback to Lenlo's own all-caps line at Dice. Sarcasm, basically.

 

I generally think Lenlo is town and find Pizza's push scummy in a vacuum, but scum!Pizza would be pretty much throwing the game at this point if Lenlo's town, and I expect he's farsighted enough to not get caught up in an argument that will secure his death on N1.  Meh.

 

There it goes.

 

It's a solvable puzzle. The two guards, one who always lies, one who always tells the truth, which door do I enter.

 

You don't throw up your hands. Pizza-scum doesn't do this day one, so pizza isn't scum this day.

 

Ignore 1000 other words I said, those are the only ones that matter to my alignment.

[Askthepizzaguy]

See Pizza, I feel that you you got into with me and once my lynch didnt immediately go through, you were stuck. You didnt plan on having it take this long to get me and so no you cant back down.

Unrealistic. I kept extending the sequence quite voluntarily. Do you know how easy it is to say I'll be back in 8 hours?

 

It's now 7am.

 

It's really unrealistic to think I was afraid of both the consequences of engaging you, and being too afraid to walk away, that's like assuming you can Fool's Mate someone in chess.

 

You didn't get me so bad that I had no choices, no options, no retreat, and no foresight about what was about to unfold. If you believe that, you are vastly overestimating your abilities.