Diablo the mafia game!

[Taborline]

 

 

 

Before, it reads like you were expecting AJ to flip seer, yet that wasn't apparently reflected in your reads list yesterday

 

 

Because if he had, it would have made you good to go too. I had you both in light green based on that possibility in my reads list yesterday. 

 

 

...Do you not understand the implications of her alignment from AJ's flip?  This isn't meant to be condescending or insult you - that is a genuine question.  I know you're still a relatively new player, so I'm trying to figure out if you need it explained.

 

 

The fact that you're asking me this makes me think I don't entirely - after catching up on the thread I was going to go and ISO her. I would think being a false peek gives her a bit of freedom, if she's scum, to make herself look really good. Because at the time of AJ's post, there really wasn't any content to go on. 

[Guest]

Hi Pral. Nice to have you here.

[Shad_]

 

 

Oh... I feel silly now. I read it wrong. I'm sorry, Yates. I had thought you meant...[something else]

I seem to be hearing this a LOT out of your slot. But you know what I'm still not hearing?

 

YOUR CASE ON HOW YOU HAVE ME SCUM BEGINNING DAY 2!!!!

Euhm yates... we have had you scum beginning D1. And I've only once apologised to YOU for reading a post wrong. In fact, I think that's the first post I have read wrong. I try to read it right so I can properly contribute to catching wolves. Lynching? Anyway.

 

And yates... sweetheart... I've presented my case on you properly already. Have you been reading the thread properly? According to my notes I wrote it somewhere on page 54. Also have less informative notes on you on page 42 and page 21, if you want to go back that far.

 

 

 

The page numbers may be one less or one more. Please keep that in mind when finding the post. Mobile does not show page numbers so I keep track of it manually too.

 

 

 

Can you link your case and update it based on how things have developed since?  Or restate it for me?  I don't really have time right now to go digging--there are still like 5-10 pages I haven't read one time through yet--and I probably put more time into this game than most.

[Zander?]

dammit yates  uve put me between a rock and a giants fan!

 

right try to read this the way I MEAN it cause i may not word it well all right?  Youre my brother from another mother and if your serious im gonna be sad and wish there was a way I   the guy who NEVER gets listened to                      could change ure mind.

 

 

Problem is I think you forgot I was in Scooby Doo.  As such I have an issue with this

 

 

So here's the post I've been dreading....

 

[deep breath]

 

As I looked back at the Lenlo mislynch and considered the conviction and tenacity with which I pursued a Bender lynch I was left with one burning question; what went wrong? I felt like I raised good points about Zander in particular. I felt like - in a vacuum - my case was WAY more solid than anything else presented. And as I look back on the success I have on other sites I wonder why I can't duplicate that success here. Why can't I get people to follow my logic? And I realize it isn't me. It's the player base. People here clear their friends and people they like for questionable to no reason. I mean, I love Zander to bits. But this is a game. And he is just as likely to rand scum as any of my other friends and people that I like. In the mean time, I watch Lenlo get pounded into the dirt over and over again. I will grant you that we have been lucky he has randed scum for some of them. But honestly, he was going to get pounded regardless of alignment as he was here. And for whatever reason, people tinfoil on me A LOT more here than anywhere else despite the fact I seldom rand wolf anymore. So this means it must be a reputation thing. And if it's a reputation thing? I can never shed that. So that made me come to the realization that I really just can't play mafia here anymore. But then as I thought about it further I realized that if I don't play mafia here I really have nothing to add to this board so quite honestly I'll just stop coming to this site entirely.

 

I guess this is a long winded way of me saying that I'm retiring from DM mafia. And that I won't likely be on this site very often as a result. So I hope many of you will come visit mafiauniverse.net [soon to be mafiauniverse.com]. Because... this is my goodbye.

 

 

 

 

Vote Yates

 

 

 

if im wrong the apology is waiting  but this IS a game of lieing and if i ignore this  and it is what i think it is??  then i will lose and that means town loses.

 

So do me a fave bro  talk to me about this.  i havent outright said my thinking and i ask that people leave this alone til Yates answers me

 

 

what happened in Scooby Doo Dice? 

[Shad_]

Ok never mind the linking part.  You did say you're on mobile.  I'll find it.  I want to hear what if anything has changed since though.

[Yates]

Euhm yates... we have had you scum beginning D1.

Yes. For reasons that Zander admitted were wrong and apologized for.

 

And yates... sweetheart... I've presented my case on you properly already...

Nope. Just talk to Zander. Get your stories straight. I want you both on the same page so we can eliminate this whole he said/she said thing you are trying to pull off that is supposed to allow your slot to talk out of both sides of its mouth.

 

Talk to Zander. Tell me your scum case. SPECIFICALLY tell me your scum case as it existed at the BEGINNING of Day 2 when Zander listed Dice and I as his lol-Top scum and had BFG anywhere other than blue. Please and thank you.

[Clovdyx]

I have good feelings about Zander. I kinda had zander as scum in the previous game when everyone was reading him town and it was mainly because of subtle things he was doing like trying to score townie points unnaturally etc. I don't see that subtlety in this game and I am kind of convinced he is town. I don't know much about Blessie's gameplay but I haven't seen anything bad from her so far.

 

Yates also looks fine to me. The argument between yates/zander looks v/v to me.

 

Thane is relatively less involved in the thread. That however is not alignment indicative as he is kind of more involved when he is scum and you can see through his actions. I think he is town in this one based on what he has posted.

 

(I also had AJ as town because hsi reads matched quite with mine. But, that is moot anyway now. We know who AJ was)

 

Clov and BFG are somewhere in the middle but leaning towards town. I have a hard time reading Clov but I have noticed that he questions a lot as scum. In this game however, he is more focused on giving out his reads straightforwards. But, that is something which looks too straightfoward. 

 

As to BFG, I didn't like her reading dice as town and reading clov as scum. However, her posts have been good and looks like the town BFG that I know.

 

 

Taborline, Notbob and Tress are null. The vote by Tress on Lenlo at the end of the game was the only thing that needs to be looked at,. Frankly, there was no need for the vote and could have done by both town or scum. Want to read her more before arriving at conclusions. Taborline, I don't have an opinion yet. Again, she is a new player and I need to see more. Notbob, well, you know why.

 

Shad and Dice are my top contenders for scum. Shad has felt odd for me since the beginning. I know he has claimed seer but I am not buying that. Posts like this and this looks like he was nudguing without willing to take a firm stand on Lenlo initially. I am more or less sure he is scum

 

I was kind of uncomfortable with dice earlier in the game. Similar to the earlier game, I see him coming occassionally and posting, just as if to show he is in the game. And, that feeling is why I think he is scum. In addition, I see soem nudges like this.

 

Okay, I know you said later that you haven't FULLY caught up, but explain to me why you think Yates and Zander are likely v/v?  I think this is considerably more likely than w/w (I swear to god, if you two are doing a Lenlo-Zander thing I'm never talking to either of you again.  Not even kidding), but I don't know if both sides would just be hounding one another the way they have if they were ever trying to discern each other's alignment.  I fully understand that Yates is convinced Zander is guaranteed scum, and maybe he is, but barring a red check I don't understand how you don't stop to consider the merits of things they say.  Same can be said for Zander.  Do you think the two of them are just so bullheaded they're locked in their positions?

 

I don't get your point on Thane at all.  I've played with him as scum...one time?... and he wasn't overly active that game at all.  Beyond that, if he's MORE active and you can see through him, how is his play this game not alignment indicative?

 

Null pile makes perfect sense and I have no issues with anything you've said there.

 

I sort of disagree with your scum suspects, Dice moreso than Shad, but I especially disagree with you reasoning on Shad.  I don't see how you can interpret that first post you linked as him nudging Lenlo.  I would argue that asking another player on someone's typical behavior is a pro-town move.  Yeah, any decent scum can DO it, but the move itself comes from a townie mentality of trying to figure out how to read somebody.  The latter is slightly more "nudgey" but I don't see why it can't just be him trying to get somebody else to make an opinion.  Do you disagree with this?

[Zander?]

 

Ill post an updated reads list after I catch up.  Wanted to do a reread and ISO's as well.

Don't worry about it, brother. Seriously. Safe the effort. You are, unfortunately caught with your hand in the cookie jar - as they say - so anything from this point on is basically you posting in anti-spew mode. You are always getting lynched today. Clov is always getting lynched tomorrow. I have a crystal ball and these events can not be undone. So at this point I'd really rather the Town focus on finding your final partner unencumbered if it's all the same to you. I know how you love it when Towns smash wolves so I'm sure you will understand my perspective!

 

Also, I do apologize for the QB thing. I had originally intended to ask Clov just to come up with a QB for me because I wanted to know why he thought I'd be doing certain things I didn't believe he would *actually* think I'd be doing. But then I came to that post and realized that a benchmark was likely needed and I used you. All of that aside, you know I love you and think highly of you and said as much to your scum team in the aborted version of TWD - as you saw - and that's how I feel about you. If I were you? I'd lick my palm and start slapping people who act like you wouldn't know what SHC was after the game... lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

 

 

 

You seem so sure you're going to be able to mislynch me Yates.  It's not as easy as you say. But you already know this. 

[Clovdyx]

 

 

 

 

Because why did you turn around and vote Lenlo? You had me, with your "I always get scum N1" speech, but then you last-minute changed, despite saying you wouldn't.

Because no one was listening to me except Lenlo? And Lenlo was pretty obviously getting lynched in order for this game to move forward? If it makes you feel any better, [or worse] I was pretty sure Lenlo was Town and my heart remained firmly voting Bender. And I will attempt, once again, to persuade people to vote Bender today or tell me why I'm wrong to push that lynch.

 

Basically, I have two of the three scum caught. I'm just trying to find the third. And the third is a lower volume player. And I was considering you because you have been way snarkier towards me than usual. And that feels kind of like "beer muscles" from someone who thinks they are on a good scum team that's going to win. I'm still debating.

 

 

I do agree with you so far on Bender.

 

Last night was wine driven, admittedly, but my snark is coming from worrying about you more this game. 

 

 

Are you still worrying about Yates this game?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

[Zander?]

 

Oh, and before I forget. So you are looking forward to seeing me?

Yes, luv. But there's a dot dot dot in there that makes the rest of this inaccurate, as you well know. The dot dot dot is: " I can't wait to see you dot dot dot posting more pics of monkey's in the thread because monkeys make me laugh..." :wub"

 

So that does mean your previous "I feel so sorry for myself; goodbye" post was, in fact... Appeal to Emotion (I believe that's the term)?

That *is* an appeal to emotion! But why work so hard to come up with that term? You have a hydra buddy who knows it and he's obviously up and awake and playing in the game now so why not just ask him?

 

Tell you what. Take a minute. Huddle up. Decide how you guys want to spin your AtE theory. Then get back to us in the thread, okay? I don't want to tear it apart if it's just kind of a halfhearted effort. That looks too much like bullying. And I don't feel like fielding that adhom attack next because it's a football Sunday!

 

 

FYI- It's Saturday Yates.

[Clovdyx]

The fact that you're asking me this makes me think I don't entirely - after catching up on the thread I was going to go and ISO her. I would think being a false peek gives her a bit of freedom, if she's scum, to make herself look really good. Because at the time of AJ's post, there really wasn't any content to go on. 

 

 

Well, you're not wrong about it would give her some freedom.  That's true - killing a person with a fakepeek on you DOES make you look really good.

 

The problem with that - and the reason it very, very rarely happens - is that by doing so...you're choosing to leave the cop alive.  The minute you kill someone you know isn't the cop, you're allowing one more player to be cleared.  AJ was spot on when he said this game isn't about finding mafia; it's about finding enough town.  As soon as you have more cleared town than uncleared players, the game is locked and town literally cannot lose.  

 

In order for BFG to be mafia, she had to say "AJ's not the cop, but I'm going to gamble that the REAL cop doesn't investigate one of us tonight to make myself look better."  SHC grants you a pass temporary, but once the real cop claims and the mechanical clears are on the table, she's relying on enough mislynches being left.  That's not an easy thing to do.

[Zander?]

 

 

Oh, and before I forget. So you are looking forward to seeing me?

Yes, luv. But there's a dot dot dot in there that makes the rest of this inaccurate, as you well know. The dot dot dot is: " I can't wait to see you dot dot dot posting more pics of monkey's in the thread because monkeys make me laugh..." :wub"

Mmmmmhmmmmmmm. Zander, insert gif here?

 

 

 

[Zander?]

 

How is that a pro town move to move from your top scum read to vote someone you were "pretty sure" was town???

Levels.

 

I think you should understand why this doesn't sit well with me right?

I disagree. I'm quite certain you are over joyed to try to shove this in my face as a last ditch effort. Only... well... levels...

 

 

 

Please explain cause your "levels" mean squat to me right now.

[Shad_]

I compiled all of Bessie's posts related to Yates, but there are so many quotes it would take like six posts to present it all and parsing them out is killing me.

[Zander?]

 

Are you f'in serious here Yates.....

Nah. I withdrew. We can talk about it post game. Or in the dead chat.

 

 

We most certainly will.

[Shad_]

 

@Shad

 

Thanks, I wish it worked but it's not an option while I'm on mobile version whilst being on mobile. I CAN switch to site version, and I've done that to multiple quote but it's harder to move the screen around.

 

 

 

 

Shad,

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ BFG

 

 

(also sorry Besie. I'm trying to catch my tablets autocorrect of your name, but I'm missing a fair few )

No problem.

 

How much talking are you doing with Besie?

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

 

 

Yates, give me your spin on this post.

 

"Gosh guys. I'm just a noobie noob and so Zander never listens to me really but I like totally knew Lenlo was Town and just fell really REALLY bad that I wasn't here to talk some sense into my silly DRUNK partner when he voted Lenlo against my best wishes. Whoopsie! Town being Town, right? LAWWWWWLL!!!"

 

To her credit, she is doing her part to try to sell it.

 

 

No offense but give me a more serious answer, regarding this post specifically. Like, humor that not everyone is 99% convinced they're scum yet and try to look at this from an unbiased point of view. If it's a town statement, what is Besie talking about? If it's a scum statement, does it have intent or is it honest? Scum make lots of honest posts.

You're right. I'm doing a lot of confbias here. Let me see if I can read your mind...

 

If it is a scum statement? I think I showed you the intent. To try to win favor by both playing the noob card and simultaneously absolving herself [and thus Zander] of responsibility for the mislynch.

 

And I will tell you this; if Clov is their scum partner? They have ABSOLUTELY set this up. And he started the ball rolling with a really early post where he floated the idea that Bender is Town because Bessie looks "so natural and carefree" as if it's impossible to be coming from a first time scum. So the seeds of the whole noob thing have already been planted early and often by Clov.

 

If it is a Town statement? I don't see the purpose. It's like she is chastising Zander for voting Len without her permission? I'm guess that's about as much as I can say from that perspective. It's really more of a throw away comment to vent. Why? What are you seeing?

 

 

Ok.

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

Now Besie's turn. Explain what was going through your head when you made this post. This is important.

 

At that point in time I was upset that he changed his, OUR, vote to Lenlo without first talking to me about it.

 

Ok. It looks like Yates interpreted your meaning here correctly and I was the one that was off. I thought that you were saying that in general, throughout this game, Zander was blowing you off in hydra QT. BFG had asked you a general question about your hydra communication thus far. I thought your answer was probably honest. While I wouldn't say that Zander fails to communicate with his team mates, he does have a history of going rogue. I could potentially see a hydra QT where Zander is telling you what he is thinking/planning but isn't really addressing your concerns and questions--especially if he's in the zone tunneling someone regardless of his alignment. Not saying Zander would necessarily do that, but it didn't feel out of the realm of possibility. And I thought Besie's probably not going to think to say it like this if she's not relying on Zander to answer her questions in the first place because she has someone like Clov or Yates in mafia QT to work with. So I thought you were either town or scum with two quieter players. But I misunderstood you.

 

It was about Lenlo, like Yates interpreted it. And that's problematic for a couple reasons Besie. First of all, Zander voted 7 hours before deadline when your slot and Lenlo's were tied for the lead. Is that a little early for pure self-preservation? Maybe. Or maybe you're too new for self-preservation to cross your mind, but I struggle with that. Realistically, you should have thought at some point that Lenlo is more likely to flip scum than you are, and if those are the only two options you can't really hate the vote too terribly much even if you hate the stated reason.

 

Second thing is you made one post after Zander switched. It was two hours later, to tell us that you weren't caught up but would try to get there after you finished working.

 

 

 

Guys I have not caught up and I can't yet (although I really want to). I just need to finish work on my dissertation tonight and then I'll catch up. I'm sorry!

 

 

You arrived D2 to say you were still catching up.

 

 

 

Hi peeps. I've been and still is catching up.

I'm going to catch up first and then respond where I feel the need to.

 

 

So from my perspective as a concerned town, it looks like work got you down and you never did manage to catch up prior to the D1 deadline. So when exactly were you and Zander supposed to talk about the vote change?

 

Do you see the issue here? Do you understand why Yates' interpretation of your motive as scummy and dishonest here makes sense, and do you have an answer for it?

 

 

 

I see and understand what you are saying Shad. I had hoped he would pm me to read in our qt about major changes. I'm always on my email while I'm working and I would have received the notification of a pm, and I would have read it. He knows this.

 

But as I said. I've been bothering him more since D1 to avoid it from happening again. For all purposes, we are on 90% same wavelength since start D2.

 

Ok. Does this make you feel any differently about Yates?

 

 

It doesn't really change my thoughts on Yates much. Since teaching me what "grasping at straws" look like in D1, I've constantly seen him doing the same to us. Especially with the Zander side of the hydra. I think it's only been twice to me. This feels like another straw to grasp at.

 

 

 

 

Ok.  What about my POV on this topic (which you said made sense) and Yates' POV (which you call grasping at straws) is markedly different here?

 

Bump to make sure you didn't overlook this question.

[Taborline]

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

 

 

Maybe I'm paranoid? I said earlier that I wasn't afraid of him anymore, but maybe I still am - if Bender ends up turning red, it would make Yates look good and possibly give him an out for the rest of the game.

[Zander?]

Zander. Do me a favor, brother? Stop doing whatever it is you're doing and lay out the TIPPITY TOP reasons you had me as scum at the beginning of the day? Like, drive home my lynch in a single post or something?

 

 

i have been and will lay it out for you. just bare with me.  still catching up.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

 

 

Maybe I'm paranoid? I said earlier that I wasn't afraid of him anymore, but maybe I still am - if Bender ends up turning red, it would make Yates look good and possibly give him an out for the rest of the game.

 

 

Well, yes, I just said that.  

 

Let me put this a different way.  You get to kill one of them right now.  Which one are you shooting?

[Guest]

@Shad

 

 

 

 

 

@Shad

 

Thanks, I wish it worked but it's not an option while I'm on mobile version whilst being on mobile. I CAN switch to site version, and I've done that to multiple quote but it's harder to move the screen around.

 

 

 

 

Shad,

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ BFG

 

 

(also sorry Besie. I'm trying to catch my tablets autocorrect of your name, but I'm missing a fair few )

No problem.

 

How much talking are you doing with Besie?

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

 

Yates, give me your spin on this post.

"Gosh guys. I'm just a noobie noob and so Zander never listens to me really but I like totally knew Lenlo was Town and just fell really REALLY bad that I wasn't here to talk some sense into my silly DRUNK partner when he voted Lenlo against my best wishes. Whoopsie! Town being Town, right? LAWWWWWLL!!!"

 

To her credit, she is doing her part to try to sell it.

 

No offense but give me a more serious answer, regarding this post specifically. Like, humor that not everyone is 99% convinced they're scum yet and try to look at this from an unbiased point of view. If it's a town statement, what is Besie talking about? If it's a scum statement, does it have intent or is it honest? Scum make lots of honest posts.

You're right. I'm doing a lot of confbias here. Let me see if I can read your mind...

 

If it is a scum statement? I think I showed you the intent. To try to win favor by both playing the noob card and simultaneously absolving herself [and thus Zander] of responsibility for the mislynch.

 

And I will tell you this; if Clov is their scum partner? They have ABSOLUTELY set this up. And he started the ball rolling with a really early post where he floated the idea that Bender is Town because Bessie looks "so natural and carefree" as if it's impossible to be coming from a first time scum. So the seeds of the whole noob thing have already been planted early and often by Clov.

 

If it is a Town statement? I don't see the purpose. It's like she is chastising Zander for voting Len without her permission? I'm guess that's about as much as I can say from that perspective. It's really more of a throw away comment to vent. Why? What are you seeing?

 

Ok.

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

Now Besie's turn. Explain what was going through your head when you made this post. This is important.

At that point in time I was upset that he changed his, OUR, vote to Lenlo without first talking to me about it.

Ok. It looks like Yates interpreted your meaning here correctly and I was the one that was off. I thought that you were saying that in general, throughout this game, Zander was blowing you off in hydra QT. BFG had asked you a general question about your hydra communication thus far. I thought your answer was probably honest. While I wouldn't say that Zander fails to communicate with his team mates, he does have a history of going rogue. I could potentially see a hydra QT where Zander is telling you what he is thinking/planning but isn't really addressing your concerns and questions--especially if he's in the zone tunneling someone regardless of his alignment. Not saying Zander would necessarily do that, but it didn't feel out of the realm of possibility. And I thought Besie's probably not going to think to say it like this if she's not relying on Zander to answer her questions in the first place because she has someone like Clov or Yates in mafia QT to work with. So I thought you were either town or scum with two quieter players. But I misunderstood you.

 

It was about Lenlo, like Yates interpreted it. And that's problematic for a couple reasons Besie. First of all, Zander voted 7 hours before deadline when your slot and Lenlo's were tied for the lead. Is that a little early for pure self-preservation? Maybe. Or maybe you're too new for self-preservation to cross your mind, but I struggle with that. Realistically, you should have thought at some point that Lenlo is more likely to flip scum than you are, and if those are the only two options you can't really hate the vote too terribly much even if you hate the stated reason.

 

Second thing is you made one post after Zander switched. It was two hours later, to tell us that you weren't caught up but would try to get there after you finished working.

 

 

Guys I have not caught up and I can't yet (although I really want to). I just need to finish work on my dissertation tonight and then I'll catch up. I'm sorry!

 

 

You arrived D2 to say you were still catching up.

 

 

Hi peeps. I've been and still is catching up.

I'm going to catch up first and then respond where I feel the need to.

 

 

So from my perspective as a concerned town, it looks like work got you down and you never did manage to catch up prior to the D1 deadline. So when exactly were you and Zander supposed to talk about the vote change?

 

Do you see the issue here? Do you understand why Yates' interpretation of your motive as scummy and dishonest here makes sense, and do you have an answer for it?

 

 

I see and understand what you are saying Shad. I had hoped he would pm me to read in our qt about major changes. I'm always on my email while I'm working and I would have received the notification of a pm, and I would have read it. He knows this.

 

But as I said. I've been bothering him more since D1 to avoid it from happening again. For all purposes, we are on 90% same wavelength since start D2.

Ok. Does this make you feel any differently about Yates?

It doesn't really change my thoughts on Yates much. Since teaching me what "grasping at straws" look like in D1, I've constantly seen him doing the same to us. Especially with the Zander side of the hydra. I think it's only been twice to me. This feels like another straw to grasp at.

 

 

 

Ok. What about my POV on this topic (which you said made sense) and Yates' POV (which you call grasping at straws) is markedly different here?

 

Okay. I'm going to start with why yours made sense. I understood why you thought I meant that generally; and I completely understand about Zander going rogue.

 

But then you realized that I was specifically talking about my vote on Lenlo. And your reasoning makes sense, again. Yes, he made that vote 7 hours before. And yes, I posted after he did. I see how conclusions can be made from that. But the post I made, I literally opened mafia, typed it, and closed mafia. Then when I later was catching up, I didn't look at times. Honest question: should I? I've never even thought it was important.

 

 

The on why Yates feels like grasping at straws.

First, he said I played the noob card. Yes. Yes, I am playing the noob card. That may, like, just maybe be, because I AM A NOOB. My "noob card" is honest. I love this game so far. I don't want to make mistakes. I want to learn. From everyone. Zander is teaching me basics, and I can ask his opinion at any time. I appreciate that, and I believe that's how it should be.

 

Secondly, he implied that our lenlo vote could have changed the outcome. It couldn't have. I know that now, so me defending was unnecessary but I felt bad about it. That's about the gist of the situation. I felt bad that Lenlo was lynched when I had still been in the mindset that he was town a few hours before.

 

And lastly, I understood his last part of his post. I understand his thoughts on Clov concerning me. I accept that. I think we're past that point now - meaning, I hope you can read me without having to rely on initial small things (in this case, "natural and carefree") now.

 

So yes. In total, I felt like I understood your POV much easier than his.

 

 

 

[Taborline]

 

 

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

 

 

Maybe I'm paranoid? I said earlier that I wasn't afraid of him anymore, but maybe I still am - if Bender ends up turning red, it would make Yates look good and possibly give him an out for the rest of the game.

 

 

Well, yes, I just said that.  

 

Let me put this a different way.  You get to kill one of them right now.  Which one are you shooting?

 

 

I think my mind wants to shoot Bender, and my gut wants to shoot Yates. 

[Shad_]

 

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

 

 

Maybe I'm paranoid? I said earlier that I wasn't afraid of him anymore, but maybe I still am - if Bender ends up turning red, it would make Yates look good and possibly give him an out for the rest of the game.

 

 

Let's be fair here.  Would scum!Yates opt to hard bus out the door for kicks and giggles?  Probably not.  Would scum!Zander say to his team mate "hey let's distance from each other" and then blow up in his face and force it to be the primary talking point?  Absolutely.  Would scum!Yates say screw it and bus back at that point rather than strongarm Zander in QT to knock his crap off?  I don't know.  Yates does not vanish off my table if Zander flips scum.

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

I don't honestly expect Zander to pay attention to shc stuff because, well, Zander, and I have no reason to believe the thought would have crossed Besie's mind in her first game. Is there anything about it that would make this oversight more likely to come from scum!Zander?

Why do people just assume Zander is some monkey pawing away at a keyboard? Yes, I accused him of acting dumb but Zander is no dummy. He knows perfectly well what SHC means BECAUSE HE WAS SHC IN THE WALKING DEAD.

http://www.mafiauniverse.net/threads/710-The-Walking-Dead?p=121893&viewfull=1#post121893

http://www.mafiauniverse.net/threads/710-The-Walking-Dead?p=121915&viewfull=1#post121915

 

There was never any question of whether Zander knew what SHC was. The question is whether he would stop to think about it before being reminded. But when I questioned him he acted as though he had thought about it but didn't believe it--to the extent of putting quite a few people above BFG with little to go on.  That aspect of it I do find suspicious. Did you read the rest of my post?

 

 

 

I havent seen a lot to make me place BFG really high yet.  I was quite confident AJ was just providing Seer cover so why should I have put much stock into this? Yes ofc I know what Seer Hunt Clear is not just form Yates TWD but I was in another game here I dont remember which one.  I think the one where Nyn and Kiv were playing and Dice "peeked" me and ate a bullet.

 

 

Three things:

 

1) Why would you NOT put much stock into it?  Do you disagree that mafia is more likely to kill someone who COULD be the cops, over somebody somebody who can't be the cop?  I thought AJ decreased his likeliness to be the cop as he started applying the hard sell (mostly because there were like three other people applying cover and I didn't think he would get a neon sign that pointed to himself), but at the time he did it, it looked convincing enough.  If somebody went fancy and killed him anyways, who do you think the team is?

 

From my POV, there are about four players on the site that would deliberately merc a confirmed non-cop.  BFG is absolutely not one of them.

 

2) Why does it matter if you think he was providing cover vs. genuinely being the cop?  He's dead.  I think that's reason enough.

 

3) Even ignoring the SHC aspect, I don't see why anybody should be doubting BFG at this point.  She would have been among my top townies for D1 even if I hadn't been presenting her as the peek, and that's only gone up today.  Without trying to insult her scumgame, I'm not sure she feels comfortable going after me for a mislynch D1, especially when it seems there's...one? other person that might help.  Her EoD play doesn't make a ton of sense from a scum POV to me, either.  Even if you're her teammate, she didn't have a ton of motivation for avoiding the Lenlo lynch IIRC...I don't think she'd really said a lot of positive things about him to the point of standing out had she voted him.

 

Just realizing that it wasn't necessary, I guess?

 

 

 

Im not sure exactly who the team is but Yates imo is certainly on it.  Would he be one of the 4 players?  And you keep saying im reading BFG so low Im not.  She a light town read on my list.  But she hadnt atp done anything to make me fully read her solid.

[Zander?]

 

 

Because why did you turn around and vote Lenlo? You had me, with your "I always get scum N1" speech, but then you last-minute changed, despite saying you wouldn't.

Because no one was listening to me except Lenlo? And Lenlo was pretty obviously getting lynched in order for this game to move forward? If it makes you feel any better, [or worse] I was pretty sure Lenlo was Town and my heart remained firmly voting Bender. And I will attempt, once again, to persuade people to vote Bender today or tell me why I'm wrong to push that lynch.

 

Basically, I have two of the three scum caught. I'm just trying to find the third. And the third is a lower volume player. And I was considering you because you have been way snarkier towards me than usual. And that feels kind of like "beer muscles" from someone who thinks they are on a good scum team that's going to win. I'm still debating.

 

 

I do agree with you so far on Bender.

 

Last night was wine driven, admittedly, but my snark is coming from worrying about you more this game. 

 

 

 

Id like your thoughts on us in your own words if you don't mind mt dear.

[Zander?]

 

So here's the post I've been dreading....

 

[deep breath]

 

As I looked back at the Lenlo mislynch and considered the conviction and tenacity with which I pursued a Bender lynch I was left with one burning question; what went wrong? I felt like I raised good points about Zander in particular. I felt like - in a vacuum - my case was WAY more solid than anything else presented. And as I look back on the success I have on other sites I wonder why I can't duplicate that success here. Why can't I get people to follow my logic? And I realize it isn't me. It's the player base. People here clear their friends and people they like for questionable to no reason. I mean, I love Zander to bits. But this is a game. And he is just as likely to rand scum as any of my other friends and people that I like. In the mean time, I watch Lenlo get pounded into the dirt over and over again. I will grant you that we have been lucky he has randed scum for some of them. But honestly, he was going to get pounded regardless of alignment as he was here. And for whatever reason, people tinfoil on me A LOT more here than anywhere else despite the fact I seldom rand wolf anymore. So this means it must be a reputation thing. And if it's a reputation thing? I can never shed that. So that made me come to the realization that I really just can't play mafia here anymore. But then as I thought about it further I realized that if I don't play mafia here I really have nothing to add to this board so quite honestly I'll just stop coming to this site entirely.

 

I guess this is a long winded way of me saying that I'm retiring from DM mafia. And that I won't likely be on this site very often as a result. So I hope many of you will come visit mafiauniverse.net [soon to be mafiauniverse.com]. Because... this is my goodbye.

 

And this actually makes me feel a lot better about you.

 

 

 

 

WHY??!!